In what way would logic dictate that?
Thanks for the good response. Appreciate it
Are you aware of the amount of hull and shield of a normal combat-fitted ship? These weapons are simply a necessity for combat. And as
@Screemonster said, identifying a combat capable ship is mostly conjecture. There is certainly a a simple joy of destruction at work here, and I won't deny that (and I won't criticise it either), but your "deductions" do not really offer more than the usual armchair psychology.
I'm aware of the arms race - yes.
Which means that identifying a combat capable ship is less conjecture than you appear to wish to concede.
There are quite a lot of tells, but you already know this.
Firstly - to use your own concepts logically: are you aware that there's an arms race? This is the first clue to a proper combat vessel, is it not? (Logic)
Secondly - the opposite is also true... There are a few tells that mark out a ship as being
not a PvP combat vessel. Place any number of ship hulls in this category. (just using Logic [1]). The presence of some ship modules marks out a probable non-PvP or non-combat vessel. Cargo racks are a prime example. if you tell me you're after a "challenging" combat engagement - for it's own sake (and not simply a one/two-shot) then there are obvious ship-fit candidates that will not be what you SAY you're after. Equally, the
lack of certain modules, and particularly the lack of
combinations of said modules (eg lack of shield boosters & meta weaponry, or lack of shield cell bank & heatsink). If you SAY you want your opponent to shoot back and put up a "good" fight (ie - one that they have a decent chance of winning?), instead of an unequal unbalanced fight, then you probably should avoid proactively engaging these targets by surprise, unless you want to single yourself out as not looking for what you SAY you're looking for.
[1] - I'll get back to this Logic later ... it has further depth and development to it that perhaps you haven't thought through or scrutinised yet, in the context of my responses in this thread. That depth and development is intrinsically logical, and I'll illustrate that at the end at note [1].
As for the simple destruction gameplay that you won't criticise, let's agree to differ on that and instead concentrate on the "reasons" most often provided - in other words, those players who DO want to put up some reason for their in game actions - which is the principal activity I reel against - rather than just the destruction. Even if I also feel that there are pretty obvious situations where I - personally - find this distasteful in and of itself. But I've already said let's agree to differ on that and tackle the other things you posted first.
Attacking an unknown ship, with only broad conjecture about their loadout is "self-evidently" not about combat? It looks as if you are obscuring your lack of knowledge behind these repeated and purely metaphorical uses of "evidence" and "logic". Despite that, why the hell should easy combat not be part of the joy of combat?
Easy combat does not necessarily need to be "excluded". I personally find it lame, but that's just me. I'm a military man, so understand more than most about military advantage, manoeuvrism, Sun Tzu, etc, etc, etc... so please not let's have any metaphors about that here. Because, in truth, this is just a game, so I find there's no place for all that horse. If you want your opponent to have fun, and
engage, with both you and the game, then you don't actively choose a player that is hopelessly out-equipped. That pursuit is just for undesirables who don't want their fellow player to enjoy or have fun. Don't confuse that for "armchair psychology". It isn't. It's a simple statement that players who are hopelessly outclassed by somebody attacking them (and choosing to attack them on the principal grounds that they are outclassed) is a part of the game that is, in the vast majority, undesired. That's it. That is not psychology. That, in the main, the attacking player is just not wanted in the attacked player's game. It is undesired.
I'd not even be inclined to do that, if you'd be offering anything remotely sensible. Logic is the formal structure of an argument and not the end result. I've also never met a logician, who'd even think about nodding sagely.
Where did you get those strange ideas about logic? Star Trek?
That's fine - your call. Not really bothered if you don't feel inclined to nod metaphorically. Shame about your fallacy of implying my posts "weren't remotely sensible". That won't wash.
On the formal structure part - if an argument is logical, then the end result is, indeed, Logic, as well as being the end result. It can be both, not one or the other.
No, not Star Trek - but from a bit of study I did IRL many years ago. (Hopefully, you've seen the logic puzzle about the 2 black and 2 white hats. Or played chess, when one tries to predict the opponents next few moves based on the one you're considering yourself. Behavioural logic)
[1] just in case you didn't work it out yet, I'm referring to the Logical Deduction that some ships are definitively not capable to be in the same class as a top tier uber-engineered and combat kitted PvP vessel. This should be self evident to you by now.
My argument is that if you want to
SAY that you're only looking for credible PvP combat engagements (and by implication not looking to one-shot that Hauler with gimballed pulse lasers, cargo racks and no shield boosters... gameplay that a "griefer" might pursue, for instance), then you could do a lot worse than down-grading your ship just a bit (?)... and this would also go a long way to distancing the undesirable proponents of PvP combat from the "good guys", would it not - just by sheer presence of logic?
User that slight downgrade, go after bigger fry than your equipment tier, make good sport and have fun with it (and if you get out-flown/outgunned, well, it's easy to escape, don't you know? <- that typical mantra of the undesirables looking for one-shot as their staple diet). Go after that Asp X fitted with shield boosters and fixed beams with impunity - if you're not flying an uber-FdL maybe they'll stick around to try their skillz whereas they'll just jump away from an uber-FdL as the first reaction. Also go after that uber-FdL in your down-classed vessel, if nothing else to boldly illustrate that you practice what you preach, while in reality, looking for a bit of fun and showing off your mad skillz by almost bringing down that FdL before you had to escape with sub 50% hull...
It's the
implications of the so-called emergent gameplay that is much lauded on this subsection that is so vital. If emergent gameplay is simply associated in every other player's mind with one-shot of weak vessels, then
undesirable is the fair and correct description for that gameplay (no psychology required, just raw matter of fact that non-PvP players don't desire it in their game). If the phrase "emergent gameplay" is intrinsically linked with one-shot weak vessels, then the rest of the community at large can then extend this truism of "undesirable" to include all PvPers as "undesirables". That's simple human behaviour and nothing you can put on forums can dissuade them of that truism.
If, however, emergent gameplay is viewed by the rest of the community at large as something other than one-shot weak vessels, then this goes a long way to tackling that gripe of PvPers that the rest of the community should not label all PvPers with the same crud-stick.
That really is about the long and short of it.
You could all "get in front" of this negative logical deduction. You could actually do something pre-emptively and proactively about it, while not really affecting the fun you derive from the game. It might even be more fun. Particularly as we all get encouraged to engage in PvP and not to shy away from it by the PvP advocates on a daily basis around here. Practice what you preach. Find out for yourselves if fighting a slightly more powerful vessel is as much fun as it is always made out to be around here, LOL. I'm now guilty of suggesting tactics to a group of players who I don't aspire to be, but there we are.
Your call.
Ultimately, if you just want easy kills, and also say as much, then I have no axe to grind about your honesty. That's just your game choice. However, this gameplay is absolutely able to be labelled "undesirable" by definition (without resorting to psychology).
On the other hand, if you SAY you want good combat, and yet go for easy kills, then I can conjecture about your trustworthiness. Again, this is not psychology of any kind. You're actively pursuing gameplay that you SAY you weren't...
Which way it goes is entirely up to each PvP individual. (Although I'd also suggest that some kind of group or association of PvP players preaching this same kind of ethos would also do the entire community a real big favour in terms of positive reputation.)
Yours Aye
Mark H