Simple proposed fix to PVE and PVP balance

So, as many of you undoubtedly know, the current balancing of this game is... let's go with poor, bordering on broken. Engineering is completely overpowered, many upgrades are just unusable and pointless, while others are just too good. A large part of this has to do with the way shields work and you can get virtually unkillable in PVE and PVP fights are usually a slog unless one or both participants bring a few very specific engineered weapons, which naturally everybody does.

So, on with the suggestion:

Make shields absorb only a percentage of the damage taken by default. I'm thinking something between 50-70%, but the numbers can be adjusted. With this change, you can also finally solve the brokenness of shield engineering. You can have upgrades which increase absorption rate, but decrease overall shield strength, or vice-versa. You can have varied builds both in offense and defense. Hull tanks become viable again. All in all, I think this will shake up things for good.

Any thoughts on the matter?
 
So, as many of you undoubtedly know, the current balancing of this game is... let's go with poor, bordering on broken. Engineering is completely overpowered, many upgrades are just unusable and pointless, while others are just too good. A large part of this has to do with the way shields work and you can get virtually unkillable in PVE and PVP fights are usually a slog unless one or both participants bring a few very specific engineered weapons, which naturally everybody does.

So, on with the suggestion:

Make shields absorb only a percentage of the damage taken by default. I'm thinking something between 50-70%, but the numbers can be adjusted. With this change, you can also finally solve the brokenness of shield engineering. You can have upgrades which increase absorption rate, but decrease overall shield strength, or vice-versa. You can have varied builds both in offense and defense. Hull tanks become viable again. All in all, I think this will shake up things for good.

Any thoughts on the matter?

No, there are already a handful of shield buster builds that devastate shield tanks.
Nerfing shields would just be giving them the same treatment hull tanking got a few patches back.
 
To say that in advance: i do like the intention of the suggestion. I very much agree that current defense stacking is overpowered and bad for the game. That being said, i would like to take a look at the suggestion at hand.

The core idea is that the big ships, which have big shields, big hull values and much hull hardness would finally also take some hull damage. So this suggestion would indeed solve one aspect of current defense stacking: shields would loose a lot of their value.

How it actually would turn out would very much depend on the details, which you did not cover at all. Among them:
  • Would it be a percentage of the damage to the shields and then be applied directly to the hull? If yes, i would engineer my shields for resists and my hull for capacity.
  • Or would the damage be split before application to shields and hull and both kinds of resist, pips and hardness would come into play? In this case, i couldn't give my adjustment right away, it would very much depend on the fine details.
  • Would you be able to deal damage to modules while shields are up? Or would it be purely hull damage, like the current Phasing Sequence modification?

I could come up with a lot more questions, but let's stick to the core of the suggestion instead and see what it would do.

I mean, the real pinacle of defense stacking are large ships, closely followed by some mediums with unusually many utility slots. In a PvP environment this suggestion would indeed reduce the combat time. Shields would be less of a dominant factor, as the hull would already be worn down when shields are up. As many details are undetermined, it's hard to tell how things would turn out in the end, but it is quite certain that the current "shoot at each other for almost an hour" scenario would be a thing of the past.

Now let's look at the PvE aspect. Against NPCs it would matter little. Most NPCs loose their shields fast enough. With this suggestion their shields would go down later, but when they go down, their hull already is damaged. Time to kill would be about the same. What the suggestion would actually change is that the players ship would take hull damage even when shields were up. At first glance this would reduce staying time in HAZRes sites and the likes.

Unless people fly big ships, of course. Big ships are often engineered deep into the range of diminishing returns. Not because people still see a lot of gain from that, but because there's nothing better to be done with those internals any more. So even small advantages, deep in diminishing returns range, do more for you than leaving the slots empty. With damage leaking through shields, these almost worthless slots would instead by filled with a cargo rack and a repair limpet controller.

And suddenly for a large ship the impact would not be any more that they'd have to leave the HAZRes zone earlier. They'd merely have a short repair break in between each fight. Medium ships would pay a higher price for this ability and small ships would generally loose out.

With that in mind, we should now take a closer look at ship sizes. All of this doesn't seem as bad, as long as we're looking at large ships. Along comes an Eagle, Courier or something else with rather low hull value. They can't stack shields up like crazy anyway, but they do rely on their shields to keep them alive, when they take some fire. So things get very grim for them rather quickly. And that's before even pondering, if the final implementation would perhaps take hull resists (which small ships often have less, due to not having unlimited internals for HRPs) and hull hardness (which is very low on small ships) into account.

So i sum up:
  • From a purely large-vs-large PvP point of view, the suggestion could improve things.
  • From a large ship in PvE point of view, it might require some small adjustments and a break in between fights one a while. But that's all.
  • Most (but not all) medium ships would be able to adjust to this change. Some of them (e.g. Mamba and FLD) would indeed loose some of their current power.
  • From a smaller ships perspective the details would determine if this would be merely really bad of an utter disaster.

Considering that small ships already are on the loosing end, they don't need to be hit any further. So as i said at the start: i do like the intention of the suggestion. I very much agree that current defense stacking is overpowered and bad for the game. Unfortunately i also think that this suggestion would not achieve this goal in a positive way.

I very much still believe that we should rather address the core of the problem: overpowered engineering blueprints and how they stack. That's the big elephant in the room and needs to be taken care of. Only once that's done, we can reasonably look at other adjustments.
 
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Not so simple really is it?
Ludicrous as the hp inflation -> weapons power creep cycle became, it's available to everyone. Yes, it really should stop where it is, perhaps should have stopped a while back, but again, everyone has access. Take the time, gather the mats/data, unlock the engineers, and play the game we have. Again, I like the idea of breaking the cycle, but these threads pretty much always come off as someone just not wanting to do the engineering, or gain the skills needed to PvP, wanting to compete with those that have.
 
Not so simple really is it?
Ludicrous as the hp inflation -> weapons power creep cycle became, it's available to everyone. Yes, it really should stop where it is, perhaps should have stopped a while back, but again, everyone has access. Take the time, gather the mats/data, unlock the engineers, and play the game we have. Again, I like the idea of breaking the cycle, but these threads pretty much always come off as someone just not wanting to do the engineering, or gain the skills needed to PvP, wanting to compete with those that have.
You didn't seem to get the point possibly? It's not about PvP skills or engineering unlocking. The issue is to move away from the bullet sponge trend that has been plaguing most modern shooting games. Have a look at Six Siege, Destiny 2, the newest CoD game.... You gotta shoot, and shoot and hit 10+ headshots, and keep shooting forever to kill anything... ED is walking this same path with shield stacking and it's not fun. The discussion was started with this in mind and Sylow brought fantastic points to the table. Not being a bullet sponge has nothing to do with skills. Have a look at older FPS games, such as Unreal Tournament (up to and including UT2k4), Quake and dozens of old shooters: still very high skill ceiling but 1~2 shots and gg. I'm not saying ED should be that fast. But the current meta of endless fights isn't too fun.
 
You didn't seem to get the point possibly? It's not about PvP skills or engineering unlocking. The issue is to move away from the bullet sponge trend that has been plaguing most modern shooting games. Have a look at Six Siege, Destiny 2, the newest CoD game.... You gotta shoot, and shoot and hit 10+ headshots, and keep shooting forever to kill anything... ED is walking this same path with shield stacking and it's not fun. The discussion was started with this in mind and Sylow brought fantastic points to the table. Not being a bullet sponge has nothing to do with skills. Have a look at older FPS games, such as Unreal Tournament (up to and including UT2k4), Quake and dozens of old shooters: still very high skill ceiling but 1~2 shots and gg. I'm not saying ED should be that fast. But the current meta of endless fights isn't too fun.
Boo ducking hoo, a perfectly valid mechanic in every game ever isnt fun.
Tanking has always been a part of games and it always will. And with every game theres always a way to deal with the tank. You have methods of dealing with shield tanks easily in ED too.
Use them and quit complaining about a perfectly valid mechanic.

Also tanking has tradeoffs in every game, and elite isnt any different in that respect either.
 
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Sure, there are ways to deal with shields. And of course every single player use those very specific weapons to deal with it. There's not that much variety right now in the 'meta'.
 
There never was much variety in the high level PvP meta except when Fdev changed something causing the meta to change. In any case, weapon power creep has kept up with HP inflation, (or is it hp inflation has kept up with weapon power creep?), so I don't really get the issue so long as they stop mucking about with it. Since all that does is cause everyone to have to re-engineer for the new meta. Prior to weapon power creep, battles could last quite a while between skilled pilots in A rated ships. They had less Mj in their shields but did less damage, and hull tanking was still a thing. If there was enough demand perhaps Fdev could create a vanilla or classic server.
 
The whole point of the thread was to suggest more variety in pvp. Or at least a new meta just for the sake of change is probably what could happen. Would that be so bad?
 
FDEV beta tested diminishing returns on HD shield boosters years back, but didn't go through with it. That would have taken down the hitpoint inflation and made resistances more important.
 
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