General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Morbad]

you are ready to walk the streets and talk to the citizens you serve.

This is difficult when those you are supposed to serve are terrified of you, often with good reason.

It varies from state to state, city to city based on needs, funding and size. It is not, for the most part: 14 weeks, a gun and a patrol car alund you on your own. Junior police officers are often partnered with a more experienced officer for up to 1 or 2 years before ever being given a squad car.

All true.

If the local government refuses to do anything to protect property then citizens will just take matters into their own hands. Which Im fine with.

Local governments refusing to do anything to protect the lives of their citizens is how this got started, and much of this unrest is people taking matters into their own hands in the face of continued escalation by the authorities.

These riots have vastly grown far and beyond the "peaceful protests" over an unjustified death.

There will always be opportunists taking advantage of chaos. Police continuing to exercise disproportionate force--either indiscriminately, or with obvious biases unrelated to the situation at hand--resulting in plenty more unjustified deaths, is a major contributor to that chaos.

Given the looters seem to represent a certain demographics, I wonder what came earlier, the egg or the chicken. Looting is totally unacceptable and should be stopped with overwhelming response IMHO.

Looting is a crime of opportunity and can hardly be pinned down to any but the most vague of demographics.

Stopping looting is all well and good, if you can do so without committing worse crimes in the process, but that's not something I really trust those calling the shots with being particularly careful about. I also don't like seeing prevention of looting being used as a pretext to crack down on what should otherwise be lawful assembly, or treating distancing violations (where they are still in effect) as some greater offense.

 

[Ian Phillips]

hey hey... so we can discuss politics and religion now in here? I always wondered about the limitations...
These posts have been up for nigh 3 hours now.... do responses get equal time before removal or how is that sorted?

asking for a friend...

o7

Hello schmicknick,

Nice of you to contribute to the discussion - oh you didn't.

To answer your friends question:
Despite rumours to the contrary, moderators do have jobs and also require sleep.
Also we do not have time to read every one of the 8.25 million posts on the forums, so cherry picking one post to complain about - good move!
If you or your friend believe that a post contravenes forum rules, then the appropriate response is to report the post so that it is brought to the attention of the moderation team.
I see that has not been done.

To everyone else: Discussing events should be done without political commentary please. These are difficult and worrying times, where having a place to talk about things is important. Please keep your political opinions out of the mix.

Thank you.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

This is difficult when those you are supposed to serve are terrified of you, often with good reason.



All true.



Local governments refusing to do anything to protect the lives of their citizens is how this got started, and much of this unrest is people taking matters into their own hands in the face of continued escalation by the authorities.



There will always be opportunists taking advantage of chaos. Police continuing to exercise disproportionate force--either indiscriminately, or with obvious biases unrelated to the situation at hand--resulting in plenty more unjustified deaths, is a major contributor to that chaos.



Looting is a crime of opportunity and can hardly be pinned down to any but the most vague of demographics.

Stopping looting is all well and good, if you can do so without committing worse crimes in the process, but that's not something I really trust those calling the shots with being particularly careful about. I also don't like seeing prevention of looting being used as a pretext to crack down on what should otherwise be lawful assembly, or treating distancing violations (where they are still in effect) as some greater offense.

Let's be real here, most decent people wouldn't loot, I'd hazard to guess nobody here. Police is tough in the States because crime is no joke either. I remember how much SFO's public safety declined between 2010 and 2014. Last time I was there for four nights, but the streets around downtown were like a disaster zone. We even heard gunshots.

With an officer shot dead and looting rampant, focusing only on #blacklivesmatter sets a dangerous precedent on what is acceptable in the name of the protest.

 

[askavir]

no, better to keep killing and discriminating against non-white people. These people who are losing businesses ever did something for them?

So that makes it ok to burn down people's homes, livelihoods and property?

99.9999999% of all the people in the world never did something for me, does that mean I can burn their homes, smash their cars and destroy their shops to steal tvs and nike caps?

Abusing authority is unnaceptable. Racism is unnaceptable. But arsoning and looting is also unnaceptable. I for one would love to live in a world without racism, authority abusers, arnonists and looters.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

There are going to be very significant effects on retail locations re-opening, and real estate as well. Tax revenues will go down.

How long until I can move to Trinidad?

You'd be welcome. I know all the good places- they are all still unable to open.
But the borders are closed.
Relax and have a coffee meantime.

 

[Oldviboy]

So that makes it ok to burn down people's homes, livelihoods and property?

yes,no material good is worth more than a person's life,this is something that has been going on for years and the police do not learn .

As I wrote earlier, these people who are losing things now, surely never gave a for those other people, why should they worry? a person from his community is DEAD,never can be rebuilt.

Learn at once.

 

[Leper Messiah]

As I wrote earlier, these people who are losing things now, surely never gave a poopoo for those other people, why should they worry? a person from his community is DEAD,never can be rebuilt.

Learn at once.

That bit in bold, you CANNOT possibly know that, that is an insane jump of logic.

 

[Morbad]

Let's be real here, most decent people wouldn't loot, I'd hazard to guess nobody here.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, unless 'indecent people' are the identifiable demographic you were referring to.

Police is tough in the States because crime is no joke either. I remember how much SFO's public safety declined between 2010 and 2014. Last time I was there for four nights, but the streets around downtown were like a disaster zone. We even heard gunshots.

With an officer shot dead and looting rampant, focusing only on #blacklivesmatter sets a dangerous precedent on what is acceptable in the name of the protest.

In 2014, while my wife was a meagerly compensated postdoc, we were living in low income housing in Wilmington, DE in a neighborhood with a violent crime rate five times that of anywhere near SFO. Was there for over two years, heard plenty of gunshots, saw plenty of guns and drugs, but never had any trouble from anyone other than the police. Not remotely the worst (though far from the best) place I've lived either...still have difficulty imagining a scenario where I'd want, or would feel safer with, police around.

As for public safety, it's the police that are the preeminent threat to that in many areas, for many people, and the severity of crime perpetrated by police in the name of maintaining order far outstrips the crimes committed against them, or the opportunistic crimes that have been concurrent with the protests sparked by the murder of George Floyd.

Anyway, no one (except maybe Oldviboy, depending on how you read his posts) has claimed that looting is acceptable and falsely conflating protesters with looters isn't going to help anyone or anything. Most of the people being shot, gassed, beaten, detained, and/or arrested, by police, aren't vandals or thieves.

 

[askavir]

yes,no material good is worth more than a person's life,this is something that has been going on for years and the police do not learn .

As I wrote earlier, these people who are losing things now, surely never gave a poopoo for those other people, why should they worry? a person from his community is DEAD,never can be rebuilt.

Learn at once.

Complete bull crap. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Looting and arsoning has nothing to do with racism or George Floyd. And someone being murdered does not give me any right to burn down your house or destroy your livelihood.

People burning down houses and looting shops are criminals, and arsonists in particular are dangerous criminals and I hope they all join the cop who murdered George Floyd in prison.

 

[Oldviboy]

of course, because burning things is the same as killing people

(Whether they go to jail or not, the world has heard them and is watching them, and if there are no protests, remember that they were already building a false case about Floyd's alleged ill health.)

 

[Ozric]

Please get back on topic!

You have been warned already, multiple times, about dragging politics into this, it seems that some cannot understand that.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Complete bull crap. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Looting and arsoning has nothing to do with racism or George Floyd. And someone beijg murdered does not give me any right to burn down your house or destroy your livelihood.

People burning down houses and looting shops are criminals, and arsonists in particular are dangerous criminals and I hope they all join the cop who murdered George Floyd in prison.

Let it go dude, the edgelords are out in force today, its not worth the effort of engaging. You've made your point and its one any normal person would agree with.

Trying to bring it back on topic I myself am amazed how many people here and the media links they've been sharing have been telling us how Covid is a serious disaster and pushing (the reasonable) argument regarding a 2nd wave are now cheering on unmasked idiots clumping together throwing bricks at the establishment and burning down the infrastructure they depend on.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Its nearly 30 years since this happened, and this video still touches on the core problem for me.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Trying to bring it back on topic I myself am amazed how many people here and the media links they've been sharing have been telling us how Covid is a serious disaster and pushing (the reasonable) argument regarding a 2nd wave are now cheering on unmasked idiots clumping together throwing bricks at the establishment and burning down the infrastructure they depend on.

indeed, I was wondering that myself, "black lives matter" apparently but not if they're a significant proportion of the 100,000 covid deaths so far (also not if it's black on black or blacks in Africa)........There's something horribly wrong with humanity at the moment.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Its nearly 30 years since this happened, and this video still touches on the core problem for me.

That clip is so sad Anyone justifying rioting is part of a bigger problem IMO

edit, although if that chap was a white man, who'd been born into a poor family and struggled to start a business...no-one would give a damn. Disparity of wealth knows no race, some of the richest people in the world are non white.

 

[Morbad]

Trying to bring it back on topic I myself am amazed how many people here and the media links they've been sharing have been telling us how Covid is a serious disaster and pushing (the reasonable) argument regarding a 2nd wave are now cheering on unmasked idiots clumping together throwing bricks at the establishment and burning down the infrastructure they depend on.

Who here is doing this?

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Not sure what that has to do with anything, unless 'indecent people' are the identifiable demographic you were referring to.



In 2014, while my wife was a meagerly compensated postdoc, we were living in low income housing in Wilmington, DE in a neighborhood with a violent crime rate five times that of anywhere near SFO. Was there for over two years, heard plenty of gunshots, saw plenty of guns and drugs, but never had any trouble from anyone other than the police. Not remotely the worst (though far from the best) place I've lived either...still have difficulty imagining a scenario where I'd want, or would feel safer with, police around.

As for public safety, it's the police that are the preeminent threat to that in many areas, for many people, and the severity of crime perpetrated by police in the name of maintaining order far outstrips the crimes committed against them, or the opportunistic crimes that have been concurrent with the protests sparked by the murder of George Floyd.

Anyway, no one (except maybe Oldviboy, depending on how you read his posts) has claimed that looting is acceptable and falsely conflating protesters with looters isn't going to help anyone or anything. Most of the people being shot, gassed, beaten, detained, and/or arrested, by police, aren't vandals or thieves.

Look, I'm from Europe so my views are based in what I see and perceive as media outlets spewing the same everywhere. What I think, based on that, that in the US the perceived view of Afro Americans came a long way in the past 30 years, especially considering that Obama was elected president. I rather see the problem of inequality in education opportunities, that prohibits the poor to change their lives. Now, I guess I will cross the line now, but if we say as a result Afro Americans share in this demographics is still proportionally high, then I can see why many at the police have biased views that lead to the problem.
So perhaps the problem is not inherent racism, but other structural issues (Education, equal opportunities, etc.) in the society.

As about police - there are issues with them where I live as well, in fact severe issues with the the whole system including prosecution and judges, so I can absolutely relate to that.
However, between 2010 and 2014, the situation in SFO tanked and to be honest the scenes to us were completely shocking. Masses of homeless high on crack or whatever lying cross the sidewalk so we had to walk on the road (in return got honked off by motorists), penetrating smell of urine, upon exiting a restaurant a man lying on the ground, with an arm in odd angle, yelling, the gunshots (never ever heard it in a city, with the possible exception of Central America). Perhaps that is normal in the US, but elsewhere it is not - and to be honest, considering the highest homicide rate anywhere in the world by far, it is objectively not normal.
At the end, I can understand why the police have become tough/brutal, and perhaps they are the problem, but not the main problem. Go nerf your police, eventually you may get war zones like in Brazil's favelas...

 

[Ian Skippy]

Had to go to Brussels for the first time in months. Also the first time I left my little town in months, too. Trains are more or less on a normal schedule, but half the seats are not available to maintain distance. Masks are mandatory in the trains, platforms and stations.

Spoiler

People largely stick to the rules, with the expected minority of people who just dont care. The streets in Brussels are notably more busy than in my home town, though also considerably less busy than normal. Every few hundred meters there are stalls where you can get free desinfectant for your hands, most stores also request you to disinfect your hands before entering. The campus is extremely quiet with 95% of exams taking place online. It was actually quite pleasant; quiet, bright sunshine, quite idyllic.

Meanwhile both here and in the Netherlands there are peaceful, non-COVID19 related, protests. Authorities are struggling a bit with how to balance the right to protest with the regulations against COVID19. Barring one incident (where way too many people came together) things seem to be going fine now. It is a new aspect to balance; first we had economy vs health, now we add safety vs constitutional rights.

And in some local happy news: I can see my friends and family across the border again, and it looks like vacations with friends are going to be possible this summer in some shape or form.

 

[Factabulous]

Hmm, so the claim that Hydroxychloroquine does harm is now looking doubtful - I hope they didn't pull the plug on the WHO trials too early:

Surgisphere: governments and WHO changed Covid-19 policy based on suspect data from tiny US company

Surgisphere, whose employees appear to include a sci-fi writer and adult content model, provided database behind Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine hydroxychloroquine studies

www.theguardian.com

I'm quite surprised by now we still don't seem to have many peer reviewed papers on treatments.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Hmm, so the claim that Hydroxychloroquine does harm is now looking doubtful - I hope they didn't pull the plug on the WHO trials too early:

Surgisphere: governments and WHO changed Covid-19 policy based on suspect data from tiny US company

Surgisphere, whose employees appear to include a sci-fi writer and adult content model, provided database behind Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine hydroxychloroquine studies

www.theguardian.com

I'm quite surprised by now we still don't seem to have many peer reviewed papers on treatments.

That is a spectacular story. While the audit has just started this almost certainly will result in a full retraction from what I can see,

One of the questions that has most baffled the scientific community is how Surgisphere, established by Desai in 2008 as a medical education company that published textbooks, became the owner of a powerful international database. That database, despite only being announced by Surgisphere recently, boasts access to data from 96,000 patients in 1,200 hospitals around the world. When contacted by the Guardian, Desai said his company employed just 11 people. The employees listed on LinkedIn were recorded on the site as having joined Surgisphere only two months ago. Several did not appear to have a scientific or statistical background, but mention expertise in strategy, copywriting, leadership and acquisition.

Dr James Todaro, who runs MedicineUncensored, a website that publishes the results of hydroxychloroquine studies, said: “Surgisphere came out of nowhere to conduct perhaps the most influential global study in this pandemic in the matter of a few weeks. “It doesn’t make sense,” he said. “It would require many more researchers than it claims to have for this expedient and [size] of multinational study to be possible.”

A more direct article about it:

A health data firm making extraordinary claims about its data

Surgisphere, a tiny startup that claims to be providing large real world data for scientific health studies, is probably fabricating data at scale.

freerangestats.info