ANNOUNCEMENT Fleet Carriers Update - Patch 3

Using laser assay I sample well over 350 rocks per normal-length session (for me) of 3 to 4 hours. Lately I've been getting an approx. 8: or 9:1 ratio of samples to hits on laserable tritium, and my hits generally run around 50 to 60. My hold is 384T. I can't carry enough limpets to use prospectors on every rock I encounter and still have what's needed to collect and fill the hold. When doing principally cores and tritium SSDs before the latest "adjustments" to mining, I could fill my hold with as few as 130 limpets, and had to dump some pretty regularly. Now I'm using nearly double that and may still run out, because laser has become the most common method and the lodes are significantly less rich compared to SSD and even cores.
Well, I think we can agree that Tritium mining, which I expended some effort in the beta arguing needed to be seriously buffed, has now instead been nerfed, by accident or design, into futility.

This brings added realism to the game: various people have pointed out that given Tritium's half-life, there really shouldn't be any Tritium in rings at all.

So we should celebrate the change and simply ignore all those suckers out in the black wondering how they're going to refuel their carriers to get home.

Or not.
 
This brings added realism to the game: various people have pointed out that given Tritium's half-life, there really shouldn't be any Tritium in rings at all.

So we should celebrate the change and simply ignore all those suckers out in the black wondering how they're going to refuel their carriers to get home.

Or not.

Ok, now lets think about Odyssey for a second:

here you have legs
here you have a gun and you can shoot stuff

two weeks later, patch is inbound. After patch is applied:

you can't walk nor shoot.

I see a weird future coming and these type of patch tactics don't really work well in terms of ... ehm let's say marketing a game ;)
 
Again, this is the point of perspective. You seem to be refuse to accept that a task can be a grind. Even if it does not feel like a grind to you. You are literally grinding down a virtual bar to get to a specific point. You are literally working to do something that takes X of something. It does not matter how you choose to do that. You can not just magically get there doing nothing. Feel free to disagree if you can't accept that. It just shows that you were unwilling to actually read what I wrote and to take it in from a broad point of view. I totally covered your position. You don't feel like it is a grind the way you choose to play the game and that is perfectly fine. But on a level, you still work through that bar. Call it whatever you want. This isn't just about you. This is a concept for gaming in general. It is accepted and not in argument. Even Frontier accepted it, and labeled the Faction reputation a grind and that was why they chose not to include it for the Alliance ships.

As for the whole "Mining gameplay". I don't feel like that question was directed at me. But I'll interject. They didn't nerf mining. They broke mining. If you go into a hotspot and can not find anything of what you are looking for, for multiple hours. Then you are not in a hotspot. You are wasting your time. Which is what Frontier chose to do to you in general because they very much chose to do this. They do not listen to players. They do not participate in the game they make. They are oblivious to their impact even while they create patches for the game. It does not take much effort to load into the game and look at what impact the patch has caused. But they clearly didn't, because they would have caught these problems a lot earlier before releasing the patch to the live game. I'm not interested in a mining simulator. I am interested in making credits to earn a fleet carrier of my own. Of which currently, I have zero reason to care about now. I have repeatedly stated how much I hate laser mining.

If everyone could earn the same amount of time per hour estimated, doing any chosen task in the game for earning money. They would have less people mining. If you could earn the same funds at the same rate for bounty hunting, or trading, or anything else. We would have more options. But Frontier, their leadership, and their developers are full on incompetent to listen to that statement. Even Braben himself said no role should be more profitable to be the only task to pay so much. If Mining is impacted so much then Fleet Carriers need to be reduced in price. If A, then B. Period. They are directly linked. And no, no one gets their credits back if they do. Frontier needs to learn that if they treat their customers like trash, they should expect to be treated like trash as well.


We are going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes grind. All games have game play that you have to engage in to progress in the game. If you find the bulk of the game play to do that boring then it is not the game for you probably. I also disagree on the length of time doing something is irrelevant to whether it is a grind or not. I enjoy walking, but I wouldn’t want to spend 10 hours straight walking. Breaking that up into 5 2 hour walks would be enjoyable. 1 10 hour walk would be a grind! Same applies to ED. I need to fill all my bins with engineering materials is a grind. I need enough to engineer a ship is not, at least for me, regardless of how many times I do it and I have engineered quite a few ships now, so have probably spent quite a few hours gathering materials.
As for what I find fun it is quite true someone else might not. But I doubt you would find any complex MMO has gameplay that everyone enjoyed all the time. What I don’t understand are comments like “They nerfed mining, it is the only bit of the game I enjoy!” Eh?! If that is all you enjoy about ED wouldn’t a space mining simulator be a better game to play?
 
If everyone could earn the same amount of time per hour estimated, doing any chosen task in the game for earning money. They would have less people mining. If you could earn the same funds at the same rate for bounty hunting, or trading, or anything else. We would have more options. But Frontier, their leadership, and their developers are full on incompetent to listen to that statement. Even Braben himself said no role should be more profitable to be the only task to pay so much. If Mining is impacted so much then Fleet Carriers need to be reduced in price. If A, then B. Period. They are directly linked. And no, no one gets their credits back if they do. Frontier needs to learn that if they treat their customers like trash, they should expect to be treated like trash as well.

True story about the roles. I can confirm this ;)

Thanx for bringing this to my attention again. In the mean time I am enjoying a different game (no name dropping). I am just wating this storm to sort itself out and maybe... one day we'll get a proper fix (however my expectations have dropped since patch 3).
 
So we should celebrate the change and simply ignore all those suckers out in the black wondering how they're going to refuel their carriers to get home.

Or not.
I think not, at least not for me and a few others who've posted similar plans to continue their exploration. I have about 2400T Rocket Tea in my hold and a full tank, been able to refill it regularly after every jump without serious effort. So, maybe the effort gets more serious, but it's still not an unattainable goal. I'm back to finding stuff in Elysian Shores, got a couple of unusual stars to scope, and enough systems mapped daily when I'm not mining to earn the exploration cred to pay my carrier fees twice over or more every week. Is it big mega space bucks in short order? Nope, but that's never been my philosophy, I don't have the Midas fever.

Maybe see y'all in the black. Good journeys!
 
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While I'm sympathetic, and have problems with how this entire thing was handled across the board - there's a reason why what you (and others) were doing is called market speculation, and not guaranteed profit.

While it's not especially helpful now, this should be approached like "don't fly without rebuy", i.e., don't risk credits you can't afford to lose.
I'm fine with the speculation aspect. If the prices had dropped normally, and I was forced to sell, I'd take that loss. But this is more like a totalitarian government imposing restrictions on buying and selling, suddenly and with no warning - except there's no "galactic government" in the game that could do that. If there's a risk to an aspect of gameplay, it should be due to the nature of the game itself - not because of unpredictable developers.
 
I'm fine with the speculation aspect. If the prices had dropped normally, and I was forced to sell, I'd take that loss. But this is more like a totalitarian government imposing restrictions on buying and selling, suddenly and with no warning - except there's no "galactic government" in the game that could do that. If there's a risk to an aspect of gameplay, it should be due to the nature of the game itself - not because of unpredictable developers.
Not to mention with zero respect for market forces. Messing up the hotspots and thus driving down the rate at which LTDs can be supplied would drive the price further UP due to the now perceived scarcity rather then drive the prices DOWN.

This is like, dried up veins AND price controls. That effectively kills an economy.
 
We are going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes grind. All games have game play that you have to engage in to progress in the game. If you find the bulk of the game play to do that boring then it is not the game for you probably. I also disagree on the length of time doing something is irrelevant to whether it is a grind or not. I enjoy walking, but I wouldn’t want to spend 10 hours straight walking. Breaking that up into 5 2 hour walks would be enjoyable. 1 10 hour walk would be a grind! Same applies to ED. I need to fill all my bins with engineering materials is a grind. I need enough to engineer a ship is not, at least for me, regardless of how many times I do it and I have engineered quite a few ships now, so have probably spent quite a few hours gathering materials.
As for what I find fun it is quite true someone else might not. But I doubt you would find any complex MMO has gameplay that everyone enjoyed all the time. What I don’t understand are comments like “They nerfed mining, it is the only bit of the game I enjoy!” Eh?! If that is all you enjoy about ED wouldn’t a space mining simulator be a better game to play?

Because ED gameplay style is not mandated you could do what you wanted, so it could be a space mining sim, trading sim, combat sim or anything else you wanted most of what any individual does has no impact on other players, so yes to fixing bugs and exploits ( that should make the product better - and that should be the goal of any dev ), but thinking you can suddenly shift players gameplay habits ( never happen you just drive them away ), here's an idea if you die in game you can't ever log back in until you re-licence. Or perhaps FD doesn't want ED to continue, too expensive to maintain, doesn't generate enough income and they want it to wither and die as a product. I'm at a total loss to understand.
 
Because ED gameplay style is not mandated you could do what you wanted, so it could be a space mining sim, trading sim, combat sim or anything else you wanted most of what any individual does has no impact on other players, so yes to fixing bugs and exploits ( that should make the product better - and that should be the goal of any dev ), but thinking you can suddenly shift players gameplay habits ( never happen you just drive them away ), here's an idea if you die in game you can't ever log back in until you re-licence. Or perhaps FD doesn't want ED to continue, too expensive to maintain, doesn't generate enough income and they want it to wither and die as a product. I'm at a total loss to understand.
Two thoughts on that. As a space mining sim ED is somewhat limited, a dedicated sim would be more rewarding. Second the game play is still there. You just can’t earn billions of credits in a few hours. Aside for the things that the patch broke like the abrasion blaster bug if you mine surface and then crack a core, still works fine if you just do the core mining, you can still do it.
 
All I ask is that FDev give players warning in advance of upcoming changes in patches.

Release the patch notes before the patch. Let players then adapt and prepare...
 
Or you're very lucky - the general consensus seems to be that finding VO's in a VO hotspot is like finding golden hen's teeth.
The 15 minute sometimes 16 minutes wait for the FC to jump is a total PITA. Why wait so long? 5 minutes is enough time for a FC out in the black. Because of this long period I don't jump my FC too often because it takes too long waiting for the next jump. 15 minutes needs to be reduced to 5 minutes. 4 jumps with this thing takes an HOUR of wasted time.

1 securing Carrier for departure.
1 minute warning and only me here.
Then it takes a minute to spool up the FSD and start to enter the Hyperspace port.
Then it is in Hyperspace.
Then more wasted time waiting for the thing to get into Hyperspace and arrive.

I mean the Mega war ships of the Federation and Empire don't need a 15 minute wait to spool up thier FSD so why on this FC is it like this?

In addition I still feel like I don't own this FC! The greeting I get is way too bog standard "welcome Commander follow rules and Dock!" Why can't the FC identify my ships as the owner? It is quite personal when the weekly fee is taken off me. Fix this please FDEV!

I think the 15 minute spin-up time is okay - I'd rather have it work with a waypoint system making it possible to have the FC make multiple jumps following one spin-up... i.e. I want to jump 1300LY, so I set three waypoints - then it takes 15 minutes to spin-up, makes a 500ly jump, a 500ly jump and a 300ly jump before exiting the hyperspace conduit and winding down.
 
Again, this is the point of perspective. You seem to be refuse to accept that a task can be a grind. Even if it does not feel like a grind to you. You are literally grinding down a virtual bar to get to a specific point. You are literally working to do something that takes X of something. It does not matter how you choose to do that. You can not just magically get there doing nothing. Feel free to disagree if you can't accept that. It just shows that you were unwilling to actually read what I wrote and to take it in from a broad point of view. I totally covered your position. You don't feel like it is a grind the way you choose to play the game and that is perfectly fine. But on a level, you still work through that bar. Call it whatever you want. This isn't just about you. This is a concept for gaming in general. It is accepted and not in argument. Even Frontier accepted it, and labeled the Faction reputation a grind and that was why they chose not to include it for the Alliance ships.

As for the whole "Mining gameplay". I don't feel like that question was directed at me. But I'll interject. They didn't nerf mining. They broke mining. If you go into a hotspot and can not find anything of what you are looking for, for multiple hours. Then you are not in a hotspot. You are wasting your time. Which is what Frontier chose to do to you in general because they very much chose to do this. They do not listen to players. They do not participate in the game they make. They are oblivious to their impact even while they create patches for the game. It does not take much effort to load into the game and look at what impact the patch has caused. But they clearly didn't, because they would have caught these problems a lot earlier before releasing the patch to the live game. I'm not interested in a mining simulator. I am interested in making credits to earn a fleet carrier of my own. Of which currently, I have zero reason to care about now. I have repeatedly stated how much I hate laser mining.

If everyone could earn the same amount of time per hour estimated, doing any chosen task in the game for earning money. They would have less people mining. If you could earn the same funds at the same rate for bounty hunting, or trading, or anything else. We would have more options. But Frontier, their leadership, and their developers are full on incompetent to listen to that statement. Even Braben himself said no role should be more profitable to be the only task to pay so much. If Mining is impacted so much then Fleet Carriers need to be reduced in price. If A, then B. Period. They are directly linked. And no, no one gets their credits back if they do. Frontier needs to learn that if they treat their customers like trash, they should expect to be treated like trash as well.
No I accept that a task can be a grind, but I don’t accept your point of view that seems to be gameplay loops that I enjoy = fun, gameplay loops that I don’t = grind. My position is gameplay loop that says fill all my bins now = grind, Gameplay loop that says engineer 1 ship now = fun. The difference is in the effort:reward balance. In first one lot of time needs to be invested, you fill your bins and then go, so what next? Reward comes some time later when you want to engineer another ship and you have all the mats you need. In the second I spend a modest amount of time and get instant reward of Fully engineered ship. Neither approach is more efficient. At the end of both you still end up with a number of fully engineered ships in the same amount of gameplay time. All it is doing is splitting a long term goal into separate smaller goals each with its own reward and it is a valid method of game design to keep players engaged. Every aspect of gameplay you work through a virtual bar to reach a specific goal, the effort:reward balance is the important thing. Mining you start with empty hold, you work to fill it, then move to sell it. You get a reward, in this case credits. So because you are working your way along a virtual bar to reach a certain point mining is a grind?! take another example - Monopoly. You start with some cash, but no properties. Your first goal is to get a set of properties. Next goal to build houses and hotels on them, working your way along 2 virtual bars. Gameplay is repetitive, roll dice, move piece, resolve anything on the square. Heavily influenced by RNG, to the extent that all your gameplay efforts can be ruined by a bit of bad luck. Playing Monopoly is obviously a grind. Funny how it is one of the most successful games ever designed. Every game has this aspect of play. You invest a certain amount of effort into the game and you get a reward at the end of it. Games where you put very little effort in for large rewards don’t tend to be successful as players get bored quickly and the rewards become meaningless. Games where you have to invest large amounts of effort for little reward also fail. Although the current industry MMO meta is to design games where you get decreasing rewards with increasing effort to encourage players to spend real cash to boost their progress. Where personal preferences come in is in how engaging the gameplay is to you. I don’t find laser mining engaging so no matter how much of a reward I get from it I won’t do it.
What FDev have done with engineering is design a gameplay loop where you can invest a few hours of gameplay and get a significant reward. I reckon I can go from a stock A-Rated ship to fully engineered with a couple of evenings of play. That is a fairly modest amount of effort for a significant pay off. A fully engineered ship is considerably better than a stock one. You may choose to call that grind if you want, but we will have to agree to disagree. I would think most game designers would disagree with you though.
Having designed a number of games (not computer games, board games) I am well aware that FDev haven’t got it right on everything. The problem with Imperial and Fed rank is not the basic gameplay it is that the effort vs rewards is not balanced. If you want to do gameplay like that far better to give players modest rewards at each level. Things like a 5% bonus on bounty payouts if you hand in at a Fed station, 2.5% discount on modules etc. That is how RPG experience levels work. There are modest goals to work to which gives small benefits against a longer term goal of making their character significantly more powerful. The current rewards, system permits, take them or leave them, only Achenar gives you access to an engineer. The ships everyone just wants the Cutter and Corvette, so it is a long path to ships which while very good are not that much better than the Anaconda. Having said all that I believe you can go from zero Fed rank to Corvette in 8 hours of gameplay.
 
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That one's got me beat, but it seems to be a perception many players have.
X4 recently had a mining nerf too, and there was the very same predictable "how are we/new players supposed to get quick credits now, it's going to add more grind" complains.
My response: So don't grind. Go play the game. If you find you can't have fun and make progress at the same time, file feedback, write a mod, or go play something else.
I really don't understand this obsession with filling bins or watching a credit balance increase at all, games are supposed to be about fun. Grind what you need for that and no more, life is short.
The big difference to X is, it doesn't make you wait for nothing. You can turn on SETA over night and let your factories do the work. You'll get your billions while sleeping.

What makes the grind real is boring game loops.
Game loops are just normal part of any game. Big question is: How appealing and interesting are they?
If the game loop consists of just boring repetitive routine, players will call it a grind.
But if the loop is engaging and enjoyable, players are much more likely to enjoy it and not complain about it. Technically, still a grind - but players call it farming.
 
Are people still crashing out of ED in systems filled with carriers? I'd like to head back to the Bubble and build a new exploration ship with multicrew in mind, but not if I can't visit the Engineers without Orange Sidewinders and CTDs.
 
Are people still crashing out of ED in systems filled with carriers? I'd like to head back to the Bubble and build a new exploration ship with multicrew in mind, but not if I can't visit the Engineers without Orange Sidewinders and CTDs.

On PC seems ok-ish - i played yesterday afternoon and in the evening on a really crappy 3g mobile connection - solo of course.
I was in the LTD3 area to test the egg-xploit - and to my utter surprise is still full of carriers, not only the ltd3 system, but most of the nearby ones. No colored snakes whatsoever.

But i have to say that i did not have any issues on PC - only my XB account was crashing badly with all sorts of orange, mauve and taupe snakes - pre-patch that is.
 
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The big difference to X is, it doesn't make you wait for nothing. You can turn on SETA over night and let your factories do the work. You'll get your billions while sleeping.

What makes the grind real is boring game loops.
Game loops are just normal part of any game. Big question is: How appealing and interesting are they?
If the game loop consists of just boring repetitive routine, players will call it a grind.
But if the loop is engaging and enjoyable, players are much more likely to enjoy it and not complain about it. Technically, still a grind - but players call it farming.
Exactly it is all about perception. Everything in ED is a grind if you choose to view it that way. What puzzles me about laser mining is that it is a boring repetitive game loop and requires very little skill. That is not to say that ED has no problems. There are aspects of gameplay where the effort involved is not commensurate with the reward achieved.
I suspect with mining that there are some unintended consequences to what they have done and they will rebalance it in due course.
 
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So have Tritium hotspots been fixed? I'm guessing this is a server-side setting that needs to be adjusted rather than a client-side code change. I'm also hoping the abrasion blaster problem is somehow server related... I'd like to be able to refuel my carrier out here in deep space, please and thank you.
I spent about an hour in a single tritium spot (some 1500ly out) and came out with 7 tons. This tritium hotspot was also a double ltd. No ltd. Moved to another standalone single tritium spot, another hour 3 tons of tritium. So I would say no, it has not been fixed.
 
So, any news from the developers? have they make any statement or what so are they going to do about this this?

Be safe and best regards to all

RG
 
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