Question for Open players who don't like PVP/ganking... help me understand

[wrmiller]

So when are you gonna start building a gank ship

To be honest, I would do just that, but the grind wall to get the pieces and parts necessary to do so (all I have is the regular engineers and a fsd booster) is just something I'm not going to do. After 5000+ (I think I'm closer to 6k) hours I'm just burned out on the game's silly grind fests. If I could level the playing field (or at least get it a bit closer to level) I could see myself flying in open more. Not a complaint, just stating my position.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

To be honest, I would do just that, but the grind wall to get the pieces and parts necessary to do so (all I have is the regular engineers and a fsd booster) is just something I'm not going to do. After 5000+ (I think I'm closer to 6k) hours I'm just burned out on the game's silly grind fests. If I could level the playing field (or at least get it a bit closer to level) I could see myself flying in open more. Not a complaint, just stating my position.

Not trying to be funny but as someone who has clocked about half the time you have in the game and maxed and unlocked everything engineer related years ago, can I ask you, what on earth have you been doing all this time? Exploration?

 

[wrmiller]

Not trying to be funny but as someone who has clocked about half the time you have in the game and maxed and unlocked everything engineer related years ago, can I ask you, what on earth have you been doing all this time? Exploration?

I have all the engineers unlocked. But I don't do aliens or power play (or whatever it's called) to get the little trinkets that others have. Just not interested. I enjoy (or did) buying/building different ships just to try things out. I like running stacked elite cargo missions in either my armed trader Python or Corvette as I like the interdictions (and mats), although the one time I was interdicted by three condas my poor little Python almost didn't survive. But it did. The building/reconfiguring of ships has me always out looking for materials. I'm not rich, but I think I have enough credits to last me a while (10B). But then I get bored with ships and get rid of them (I currently only own 6 or so). I 'thought' I wanted a carrier, but after it's release I decided it was not for me. I can do short stints of exploration, but I get bored after a few days.

The wing assassination missions (played solo) were fun for a while, but that got old too. I still enjoy dropping into a CNB or hazres from time to time. With the silly COD on dead moons coming soon, I've scaled way back on my playtime as it appears the game is heading in a direction I'm not interested in following.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I have all the engineers unlocked. But I don't do aliens or power play (or whatever it's called) to get the little trinkets that others have. Just not interested. I enjoy (or did) buying/building different ships just to try things out. I like running stacked elite cargo missions in either my armed trader Python or Corvette as I like the interdictions (and mats), although the one time I was interdicted by three condas my poor little Python almost didn't survive. But it did. The building/reconfiguring of ships has me always out looking for materials. I'm not rich, but I think I have enough credits to last me a while (10B). But then I get bored with ships and get rid of them (I currently only own 6 or so). I 'thought' I wanted a carrier, but after it's release I decided it was not for me. I can do short stints of exploration, but I get bored after a few days.

The wing assassination missions (played solo) were fun for a while, but that got old too. I still enjoy dropping into a CNB or hazres from time to time. With the silly COD on dead moons coming soon, I've scaled way back on my playtime as it appears the game is heading in a direction I'm not interested in following.

Fair enough - though that sounds to me like engineering a ship or two for Open, PvP etc shouldn't really take that long as long as you kept collecting mats as you went along... I can easily build a new ship from scratch within an evening - the worst part really is travel between the engineers and I might not G5 all modules right away due to certain elusive materials but that's ok if you just want to dip your feet into Open - as long as you don't expect to win each engagement from the get go.

 

[Danquememe]

Elite is not a PvP game though. It's a PvE game with informal PvP bits in it. Even as a largely PvE player with occasional adventures into PvP it pains me to see how half baked it's been implemented in the greater scheme of things. I mean, from a game structure point of view even CQC is more fleshed out...

Elite is not really sure what it wants to be. It wants to be MMOish... but it's not an MMO. It wants to have a singleplayer experience, but you can still be affected (indirectly) by the actions of other players. It wants to be a PVE co-op game, but you can get raided by PVPers unless you're in a Private Group (and even then, too...). And it wants to be a PVP game, too, but then gives players a wide range of ways of avoiding PVP, even while being able to fully influence the BGS and PP and so forth.

It's really kind of a mess, and this thread has helped me understand that quite plainly. Because it tries to be all things to all people, it fails to be any one thing to anyone, and that IMHO leads to a sort of situation that is truly unique in my gaming experience. And not in a good way, either.

But, for me, and for now, the good far outweighs the bad. I do enjoy most aspects of the community, though I think the specific design decisions themselves are more to blame for the acrimony than the actions of specific players. It's the squashing all of these different and disparate groups together that causes the problems, and the solutions are really ones the devs need to provide, should they see fit to. It seems they think it's all good, though, so at this point I've accepted that "it is what it is."

 

[wrmiller]

Fair enough - though that sounds to me like engineering a ship or two for Open, PvP etc shouldn't really take that long as long as you kept collecting mats as you went along... I can easily build a new ship from scratch within an evening - the worst part really is travel between the engineers and I might not G5 all modules right away due to certain elusive materials but that's ok if you just want to dip your feet into Open - as long as you don't expect to win each engagement from the get go.

I don't have prismatic shields, the alien shield/armor boosters, or the super-duper PP weapons that everyone seems to like. I can buy and build a G5 ship in an hour or so, which is why I like hanging my hat at Jameson. But a G5 anything won't survive long, let alone have a fair chance against the hard-core PvPers. I wouldn't be interested in 'just surviving' a PvP engagement. I don't mind losing of course, but I'd at least like a chance to win one occasionally.

 

[Mohrgan]

Elite is not really sure what it wants to be. It wants to be MMOish... but it's not an MMO. It wants to have a singleplayer experience, but you can still be affected (indirectly) by the actions of other players. It wants to be a PVE co-op game, but you can get raided by PVPers unless you're in a Private Group (and even then, too...). And it wants to be a PVP game, too, but then gives players a wide range of ways of avoiding PVP, even while being able to fully influence the BGS and PP and so forth.

It's really kind of a mess, and this thread has helped me understand that quite plainly. Because it tries to be all things to all people, it fails to be any one thing to anyone, and that IMHO leads to a sort of situation that is truly unique in my gaming experience. And not in a good way, either.

But, for me, and for now, the good far outweighs the bad. I do enjoy most aspects of the community, though I think the specific design decisions themselves are more to blame for the acrimony than the actions of specific players. It's the squashing all of these different and disparate groups together that causes the problems, and the solutions are really ones the devs need to provide, should they see fit to. It seems they think it's all good, though, so at this point I've accepted that "it is what it is."

That's funny. I have the exact opposite response to the design of Elite. I've been playing since launch and I would never have bought a game that only had a PvP environment. That includes my entire ten minutes in Eve Online. I often comment on how flexible the mode system is for allowing so many different perspectives to seek their interests. I guess I can play and let play, leaving others to find the game experience they enjoy, while I do the same. Some other players seemingly cannot.

The game design isn't broken, or ill-conceived. You just can't accept implications of players being in charge of their own gaming time. I believe your narrow minded view of this game, and how gaming can be, is the limiting factor here.

 

[ACowForAllSeasons]

I don't have prismatic shields, the alien shield/armor boosters, or the super-duper PP weapons that everyone seems to like. I can buy and build a G5 ship in an hour or so, which is why I like hanging my hat at Jameson. But a G5 anything won't survive long, let alone have a fair chance against the hard-core PvPers. I wouldn't be interested in 'just surviving' a PvP engagement. I don't mind losing of course, but I'd at least like a chance to win one occasionally.

You could build out a quite capable Frag Krait in no time at all. Dip your toes into ganking and then see where you go from there. MOAG can always use new ganklings.

 

[Screemonster]

Emergent PvP doesn't usually happen in meta ships, although if you know what you are doing (not a claim I make) you can build a decent hybrid & know your ship's limitations. If I encounter an 'enemy' it's likely to be in a CZ where I'm in something that's pretty tough anyway, albeit designed for lots of quick kills rather than a single sustained encounter. But they will be too, so it's more about the pilot than the loadout. Those encounters are rare, and them becoming anything more than handbags at dawn even rarer.

honestly this sort of PvP is far more interesting to me than some meta PvP match. You just happen to bump into each other and slug it out with whatever you happen to be flying at the time.

 

[Brrokk]

That's funny. I have the exact opposite response to the design of Elite. I've been playing since launch and I would never have bought a game that only had a PvP environment. That includes my entire ten minutes in Eve Online. I often comment on how flexible the mode system is for allowing so many different perspectives to seek their interests. I guess I can play and let play, leaving others to find the game experience they enjoy, while I do the same. Some other players seemingly cannot.

The game design isn't broken, or ill-conceived. You just can't accept implications of players being in charge of their own gaming time. I believe your narrow minded view of this game, and how gaming can be, is the limiting factor here.

I find myself liking both Danque's view and this reply. I can see where you're both coming from. I think ED does try to be "all things to all men" and it's debatable how well it succeeds, but the core idea is clever and among other games it's an interesting innovation. I still see it as a work in progress. I think so far it's more successful than either a pure PvP game or a pure solo game would have been, so I'm hopeful about future development.

It's also been said in this thread that a clear flaw in the design is the attempt to make co-op PvE and free PvP work together in the same mode. I think that's because of what I'll just call now the "missing mode". If that were solved I think we'd have a pretty solid game design.

 

[thistle]

That's funny. I have the exact opposite response to the design of Elite. I've been playing since launch and I would never have bought a game that only had a PvP environment. That includes my entire ten minutes in Eve Online. I often comment on how flexible the mode system is for allowing so many different perspectives to seek their interests. I guess I can play and let play, leaving others to find the game experience they enjoy, while I do the same. Some other players seemingly cannot.

Huh. I completely agree with this.

 

[thistle]

I think so far it's more successful than either a pure PvP game or a pure solo game would have been ...

Completely agree. And I was one of those throwing the toys out the pram in 2014 with the no offline decision.

 

[wrmiller]

You could build out a quite capable Frag Krait in no time at all. Dip your toes into ganking and then see where you go from there. MOAG can always use new ganklings.

I had better luck with a frag Python TBH. I really wouldn't be interested in attacking unarmed/unarmored transports or noobs. Just not me.

 

[Deleted member 121570]

I'm not rich, but I think I have enough credits to last me a while (10B)

Dude, that's way rich. I have around similar hrs to you and I've only ever broken the 1 bil. barrier once a few months back
Still just about hanging onto that billionaire status, but will probably lose it within the next couple months I guess.
Couldn't be bothered unlocking all the engineers here either.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Elite is not a PvP game though. It's a PvE game with informal PvP bits in it. Even as a largely PvE player with occasional adventures into PvP it pains me to see how half baked it's been implemented in the greater scheme of things. I mean, from a game structure point of view even CQC is more fleshed out...

And apart from PvP and AX combat you don't need engineers at all in order to do whatever there is to do in the game for anything else.

The fact that you can play Elite like CoD in Space is merely a testament to the game's open structure (again something I really like about) at least when it comes to what activities you engage in, and how. My alt account is flying a medium pad ship which is at best G2 engineered, if at all (haven't unlocked armour yet for example), and it's getting on just fine - as long as I don't try to engage in PvP.

You've basically chosen the in-game profession (PvP) that is the most grindy of them all, and you could even argue that AX is worse due to the Guardian gear unlock requirements. Doesn't mean it's the same for the rest of the game, unless one insists on flying fully G5'd ships at all times, which is complete overkill imo.

In fact engineering is quite usefull for explorer, PVE combat and such.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

In fact engineering is quite usefull for explorer, PVE combat and such.

Of course, but what I'm saying is it's not a barrier to entry.

Different story for PvP or AX if you plan to stay longer than the time it takes to high wake.

 

[Danquememe]

It's also been said in this thread that a clear flaw in the design is the attempt to make co-op PvE and free PvP work together in the same mode. I think that's because of what I'll just call now the "missing mode". If that were solved I think we'd have a pretty solid game design.

This is my point, and the one that @Mohrgan didn't quite pick up on in the post they replied to (which, fair enough, I didn't elaborate and left a lot to interpretation as consequence).

Pushing PVE co-op -seeking players into the same game mode as PVP -seeking players will inevitably lead to conflict, with the PVE players wanting to be left alone to do their co-op or at least "parallel play" mostly-solo stuff, and the PVP players wanting to PVP. With no easy or reliable means of identification, no PVP or PVE -only zones, etc., the bitter acrimony we see throughout this thread, forum and elsewhere around Open mode is the result.

This is only exacerbated - and heavily so - by the introduction of engineering. Something which someone else pointed out just above is basically optional for most of the game's PVE content. Not so at all with PVP, unless you find people who agree to terms, as it were, beforehand. Meaning you can't rely on it at all for "organic PVP", where the only sane move is to fly the most heavily outfitted ship you can manage. Which requires heavy engineering. Which turns a lot of people off. And so on.

These are in fact flaws that have demonstrable negative impacts on the playerbase. This forum and this thread contain ample evidence of same.

I mean, trust me... as a ganker, it's the easiest thing in the world to just tell people to "go to Solo or PG if you don't want PVP" or "add me to your block list," but the bigger point - is why should either I or they have to do that? Why not just have a mode that lets them pre-tailor the experience in the first place?

I do agree there are a lot of accommodations, so is the solution to tell people some version of "git gud" - i.e. learn about and use the tools to make Elite be what you want it to be?

I mean, until and unless something is changed, that's the only real answer, so I guess so.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

This is my point, and the one that @Mohrgan didn't quite pick up on in the post they replied to (which, fair enough, I didn't elaborate and left a lot to interpretation as consequence).

Pushing PVE co-op -seeking players into the same game mode as PVP -seeking players will inevitably lead to conflict, with the PVE players wanting to be left alone to do their co-op or at least "parallel play" mostly-solo stuff, and the PVP players wanting to PVP. With no easy or reliable means of identification, no PVP or PVE -only zones, etc., the bitter acrimony we see throughout this thread, forum and elsewhere around Open mode is the result.

There is very simple way to avoid conflict. Comms panel -> Send message to player: "Do you want to have little pew per?" "Yes" -> Have a little pew pew. "No" -> Don't have a little pew pew. Of course that is kind of conscious choice.

 

[Danquememe]

There is very simple way to avoid conflict. Comms panel -> Send message to player: "Do you want to have little pew per?" "Yes" -> Have a little pew pew. "No" -> Don't have a little pew pew. Of course that is kind of conscious choice.

This is the heart of the matter, indeed. Is it time to talk about the "what did you agree to when you clicked Open" thing again? We haven't done that for a bit.

Interestingly, there was a recent Reddit post on exactly that subject, and the majority opinion was that playing in Open meant you were willing to accept being attacked anywhere, for any reason, or no reason.

Opinions on that, of course, vary!

 

[ACowForAllSeasons]

This is the heart of the matter, indeed. Is it time to talk about the "what did you agree to when you clicked Open" thing again? We haven't done that for a bit.

Interestingly, there was a recent Reddit post on exactly that subject, and the majority opinion was that playing in Open meant you were willing to accept being attacked anywhere, for any reason, or no reason.

Opinions on that, of course, vary!