![[PS4] Filthymick420](https://d2aefvhu2f0gi9.cloudfront.net/data/avatars/m/201/201444.jpg?1555738739){kind=avatar}
It seems odd to actively take steps to prevent something like that. Not saying to prevent this specifically but to prevent these actions from occurring at all
Community Event / Creation Turning the Wheel
- Thread starter CMDR Kai Zen
- Start date
Preventing factions expanding into Sol / Achenar / Alioth / Shinrarta is a pretty obvious measure to make sure that e.g. the Federal capital stays Federal. Preventing conflicts between factions in those systems likewise. I suspect Frontier may slightly regret not doing the same for a few other systems which weren't quite as lore-sensitive but still raise awkward questions when they change hands.
Preventing outbound expansion has never been necessary before, and is still possible in systems which previously were under this "lore sensitive" restriction, so Frontier's motivation in applying that to Shinrarta alone will ever remain a mystery.
This is what I meant above by "raises more questions than it answers" - okay, Frontier have recently put in place a special rule for Shinrarta that means even if a faction reaches 75% influence, it won't expand [1]. But why bother doing that? At the time the rule was placed every single faction in Shinrarta was present outside Shinrarta as well, and the high system population and ultra-high player traffic levels mean that the chances of any faction reaching 75% are essentially zero anyway. So it appears to be a rule to prevent something which
a) can't happen in practice without implausible levels of cooperation across the entire player base
b) wouldn't change anything important if it happened anyway
Every other time Frontier have put in an exception to the normal BGS rules - be that placing the original starter systems under a non-influence faction so they couldn't be put into a Lockdown which confuses beginners, or putting a full lock on any influence or state movement in the new starter systems for similar reasons, or putting the old inbound expansion+conflict restrictions on the lore-sensitive systems, or changing the BGS rules to make expansion into generic permit-locked systems almost impossible to prevent a repeat of Ross 128, or moving the AEGIS faction to Sol after it had a successful BGS attack on it in its previous unlocked system, or even just forcing War or Famine or similar states on a few factions for the current Galnet storyline - it has been extremely obvious why they've done it, and they have done it in a really obvious way.
This one is just bizarre, by those standards. The explanation given in the Community Manager response fits perfectly for the known existing restrictions on politically-restricted systems (inbound, conflict) but doesn't for the new Shinrarta-unique one (outbound). So ... what aren't we being told? Why was that apparently unnecessary change really made? Maybe it's important?
[1] This can occur naturally in rare cases - there's a system near me where the controlling faction has been above 75% for most of the last two years and never goes into expansion, for "normal operation of the BGS" reasons [2]. So setting the same flag on every faction currently in Shinrarta would be very easy for Frontier to do (and is probably the most plausible mechanism rather than inventing a separate BGS restriction class for the system).
[2] If a faction fails to find a valid expansion target even with an extended range expansion, it can never expand from that system again. There are a few cases of this scattered around, mostly from big player factions out in really sparse parts of the bubble.
what? What? WHAT!? Write a book man, every time you speak I learn something I never even heard of before!
Are you thinking BGS or Lore?
im purely thinking Lore, and BGS is a tool or a hammer used to keep it in line. Agree about the certain 'other lore' systems and betting Frontier wished theyd been a bit heavier with the BGS locks.
Lore wise - PF 'own' Shinratra, DW were only in SD as mentioned in the Codex, a mistake happened and they expanded when they werent supposed to into 926. What do Frontier do then? Just delete them? They try where possible I think to try and answer in game (Gnosis) rather than just impose deletions. So I think they left it and then made sure DW couldnt do it again.
You say it would take a large majority of the player base......would you really trust ED playerbase not to manage it at some point? I dont think Id bet on it tbh
DW 13K players wasnt it....this playerbase can come together like no other me thinks and Frontier just werent taking any chances at all so make it almost impossible to achieve in the first place and then if we do break through that we meet the out of game response, No. So the BGS is used to 'uphold' the lore, DW in SD only and just put up with 926....until TTW came along. Hopefully players dont try and it keeps it in-game, but if we do unfortunately theres no other way but to make it obvious.Lore wise it makes sense that DW are shadowy org hidden in PL system only for the Elite. I think that was the plan and mistakes caused reactions and then pro-actively stopped it happening again.
Good news is that if you interpret it that way the answer to your question 'So...what aren't we being told?' is hopefully, a massive storyline involving the DW at some point in the future. Whatever it is they tried to protect the 'start' of it for years presumably for narrative purposes (secrecy or protection from The Club?) and all the BGS stuff is to protect this story. As long as its not a map to Raxxla Ill be happy.
All speculation ofc.
Agreed with your other points - on this one, remember that when 13k players went off on Distant Worlds, the various in-bubble activity indicators (BGS, Powerplay, Squadron, Thargoid war) barely changed, and even in exploration it only ~doubled the amount of that going on. Getting used to the two different scales where 13,000 people is both a ridiculously huge organisational achievement, and also barely noticed by their absence, can be a bit tricky.You say it would take a large majority of the player base......would you really trust ED playerbase not to manage it at some point? I dont think Id bet on it tbh
Also remember that when the Dangerous Games happened years back, the winning group was one that virtually "no-one had heard of before" due to a language barrier, despite them having a history of Elite fandom predating Elite Dangerous itself and having vast numbers of players.
No matter what happens, 90%+ of players will keep doing their own thing. For something like this, probably more like 99%+
Potentially.
But the in-game response can be enough, with the right hints - see also the CG balancing discussions, of course. Individually, players all have free will. Collectively, their actions are nevertheless predictable. The Club can offer convenient oufitting and nice discounts in Shinrarta, and therefore ensure that a single faction obtaining 75% influence is impossible due to all the mercenaries swarming around looking for work. Sure, in theory everyone could all decide to go somewhere else for two weeks and let you have free run (and maybe they're concerned enough about that possibly happening at some point to have put an explicit block in, or maybe they just put it in shortly after the first TDW expansion when the BGS's form was less solid) but it's not going to happen - so what other hints could be given to increase or decrease background player numbers in particular systems?
I'm going to post here one last piece of information with regard to those in this thread that have proposed that Frontier needs to increase it's responses to the player base at large via the forums. I will not post the exact message as that is private but I will state publicly that I have again been in contact with Frontier to offer the perspective that it would be well worth their efforts to actively increase their presence on these forums to foster better open communications and answer questions (where appropriate) to their players as a whole. I feel that the CM team has really been doing a fantastic job as of late on all fronts increasing their level of information sharing and such and feel that a little more attention (maybe a Forum Friday weekly event or whatever) here on the forums would be a strong step they could take to further these gains.
Taken from the Standing orders on the Elite Week Discord https://discord.gg/Wtgnsbq
Orders 7 Nov - 8 Nov 3306
We are focussing on preparing Lave for our invasion by supporting our allied Lave Radio Network.
Excellent work in Phra Lak! We have surpassed two factions, who are in conflict and are now #2. Please push us into a conflict for control of the system.
In Anyanwu Aegilips Co is close to retreat, please do some missions for them to prevent this.
Nothing happened in the war of LHS 346 Democrats in Anyanwu, still 2-1. Please help them win this war.
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally Alliance Rapid-reaction Corps.
Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp. in LHS 397 are at war with a native faction (0-0), please help them win this war.
GQ Virginis General Corporation in LTT 5455 are at war with a native faction (0-1), please help then win this war.
Please remember:
Do NOT work for other factions in our systems, unless requested in the orders.
Do NOT hand in bounties for any faction other than The Dark Wheel in our systems.
Do NOT hand in trade goods or cartography data to stations that we do not own.
Tasks for today:
Bounty Hunting & Combat:
Commodity Trading
- Profitable trades into Lave Station in Lave.
Missions & Passengers
Exploration Data:
Please continue to use EDMC or similar tools to keep local data up to date.
Keep Turning The Wheel, Hamsters!
Orders 7 Nov - 8 Nov 3306
We are focussing on preparing Lave for our invasion by supporting our allied Lave Radio Network.
Excellent work in Phra Lak! We have surpassed two factions, who are in conflict and are now #2. Please push us into a conflict for control of the system.
In Anyanwu Aegilips Co is close to retreat, please do some missions for them to prevent this.
Nothing happened in the war of LHS 346 Democrats in Anyanwu, still 2-1. Please help them win this war.
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally Alliance Rapid-reaction Corps.
Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp. in LHS 397 are at war with a native faction (0-0), please help them win this war.
GQ Virginis General Corporation in LTT 5455 are at war with a native faction (0-1), please help then win this war.
Please remember:
Do NOT work for other factions in our systems, unless requested in the orders.
Do NOT hand in bounties for any faction other than The Dark Wheel in our systems.
Do NOT hand in trade goods or cartography data to stations that we do not own.
Tasks for today:
Bounty Hunting & Combat:
- Bounty Hunting in Lave. Hand in to Lave.
- Bounty Hunting in any of our controlled systems. (Anyanwu has a CNB). Hand in to Phra Lak.
- CZ in Anyanwu, fight for LHS 346 Democrats.
- CZ in LHS 397, fight for Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp.
- CZ in LTT 5455, fight for GQ Virginis General Corporation.
Commodity Trading
- Profitable trades into Lave Station in Lave.
Missions & Passengers
- Missions for Lave Radio Network in Lave.
- Missions for The Dark Wheel in Phra Lak and Arque.
- Missions for Aegilips Co in Anyanwu.
- Missions for Bruthanvan Co in Turdetani. (not much today)
Exploration Data:
- Hand in to Lave Station in Lave
- Hand in to Zillig Depot in LHS 397.
Please continue to use EDMC or similar tools to keep local data up to date.
Keep Turning The Wheel, Hamsters!
JUST WANT TO CLARIFY THIS AS EXPLICITLY AS POSSIBLE AHEAD OF TIME SO THAT THERE IS NO CONFUSION:
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally Alliance Rapid-reaction Corps.
AS STATED IN THE ABOVE ORDERS: We will be assisting our friends and neighbors in the Arque system the ARCC by engaging in a conflict to take an asset in the system then will be climbing up to initiate conflict with them for #1 power in system. WE WILL THEN INTENTIONALLY LOSE THIS CONFLICT AS A METHOD OF TRANSFERRING OWNERSHIP OF THAT ASSET TO THEM. We will then drop well below them to #2 faction in system. As we stated when we moved into this system by accident we have no intentions toward any asset in this system and are more than happy for them to own it all. We just want to hang out and maybe get a discount on shots of jack at the bar.
Last edited:
If this goes well you'll all be invited to have a nice Lavian Brandy with us 
Taken from the Standing orders on the Elite Week Discord https://discord.gg/Wtgnsbq
Orders 8 Nov - 9 Nov 3306
We are focussing on preparing Lave for our invasion by supporting our ally Lave Radio Network.
In Phra Lak we reached 26.4% (#2). Please push us into a conflict with #1 (42.6%) for control of the system.
In Anyanwu Aegilips Co are now at 5.2%, please do one or two missions for them to make them safe.
In Anyanwu LHS 346 Democrats are now leading 3-1 in their war. Please help them win this war one more day.
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally ARrC.
In LHS 397 Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp. are now leading 1-0 in their war, please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 GQ Virginis General Corporation are at war with a native faction (1-1), please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 Wolf 562 Major Inc has an election against a native faction (0-0), please do some peaceful missions for them.
Please remember:
Do NOT work for other factions in our systems, unless requested in the orders.
Do NOT hand in bounties for any faction other than The Dark Wheel in our systems.
Do NOT hand in trade goods or cartography data to stations that we do not own.
Tasks for today:
Bounty Hunting & Combat:
Commodity Trading
- Profitable trades into Lave Station in Lave.
Missions & Passengers
Exploration Data:
Please continue to use EDMC or similar tools to keep local data up to date.
Keep Turning The Wheel, Hamsters!
Orders 8 Nov - 9 Nov 3306
We are focussing on preparing Lave for our invasion by supporting our ally Lave Radio Network.
In Phra Lak we reached 26.4% (#2). Please push us into a conflict with #1 (42.6%) for control of the system.
In Anyanwu Aegilips Co are now at 5.2%, please do one or two missions for them to make them safe.
In Anyanwu LHS 346 Democrats are now leading 3-1 in their war. Please help them win this war one more day.
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally ARrC.
In LHS 397 Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp. are now leading 1-0 in their war, please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 GQ Virginis General Corporation are at war with a native faction (1-1), please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 Wolf 562 Major Inc has an election against a native faction (0-0), please do some peaceful missions for them.
Please remember:
Do NOT work for other factions in our systems, unless requested in the orders.
Do NOT hand in bounties for any faction other than The Dark Wheel in our systems.
Do NOT hand in trade goods or cartography data to stations that we do not own.
Tasks for today:
Bounty Hunting & Combat:
- Bounty Hunting in Lave. Hand in to Lave.
- Bounty Hunting in any of our controlled systems. (Anyanwu has a CNB). Hand in to Phra Lak or LHS 397.
- CZ in Anyanwu, fight for LHS 346 Democrats.
- CZ in LHS 397, fight for Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp.
- CZ in LTT 5455, fight for GQ Virginis General Corporation.
Commodity Trading
- Profitable trades into Lave Station in Lave.
Missions & Passengers
- Missions for Lave Radio Network in Lave.
- Missions for The Dark Wheel in Phra Lak, Arque and LHS 397.
- Missions for Aegilips Co in Anyanwu. (only 1 or 2)
- Peaceful missions for Wolf 562 Major Inc in LTT 5455.
Exploration Data:
- Hand in to Lave Station in Lave
- Hand in to Zillig Depot in LHS 397.
Please continue to use EDMC or similar tools to keep local data up to date.
Keep Turning The Wheel, Hamsters!
Last edited:
Just checking, profitable trades into Lave Station...includes BioWaste, if too much Biowaste will it have a negative effect on the BGS (Outbreak is it?) for LaveRadio? I know it leads to Meds deliveries and good BGS outcomes the week after, but in that middle period, have we messed up the conflict status between 2 other factions or can they all run concurrently now? Or potentially worse have we dropped a bio-bomb on our landlords / hosts for a week (4 days? not sure how these work now)?
It's not at all clear whether Biowaste trading causes Outbreak or not.
Delivering Biowaste as part of a cargo A->B delivery mission does ... but just on its own as a trade good? No-one is entirely sure - it would be a very difficult test to be sure either way.
The ultra-high population of the system will insulate them quite a lot against events, so it should be safe either way - if being an Agricultural system with plenty of neighbours to generate Biowaste delivery missions isn't putting them into Outbreak, it's highly unlikely your work will either ... and Outbreak isn't that bad as Event states go, if it did. (Events and Conflicts can run in parallel, so that's fine too)
It does, but it is dependant on Population Size. A CMDR can put a system in Outbreak if the population size is around 1000, you would need to trade about 5-10x that which is doable for a single person/wing within a single tick. But for a system like Lave with a population of 25billion? You would need a hell of a lot of poo. An ungodly frack-tonne of poo.
We talking about 200billion+. Tonnes. Minimum. Of Poo.
Just. Try. And. Visualise. That.
insert obligatoryjurassicparkthatsalotofshit.gif
(But as Ian said, it's not a tried and tested method, not been verifiable, and there are other factors in play. Price would crash long before it would start having an effect, so you'll be selling at a loss. Also it can also be random state as well. BGS is weird.)
Has that been tested recently? Agricultural systems where you can rule out missions as well are rare. If so, offtopic for this thread, but please send me the details of the test - it's relevant to some wider interests I have in the Event states.
I suspect you may be overestimating the amount needed for Lave - these effects are likely proportional to log2(population), rather than linear - but it's an under-researched area
One thing I'm very sure of is that none of these states are random. The causes are fairly well-hidden and difficult to test, but the evidence is very strong that they're as fully deterministic based solely on player actions as influence is.
(Also known for Outbreak: combat bonds cause it - which side they cause it for isn't entirely clear - and trade in medicines makes it less likely to start.)
So from a lore perspective maybe weve been given a hint. The megaships if not supplied properly (and werent) would cause various states. So mass transition of people causes those states, makes sense, transient refugee camps are never the best of hygiene and mass movement of people always spreads disease or makes it worse anyway. Strains on local services cause local issues?
So Combat Bonds, war state causes people to flee, same effect, maybe tipped for the losers who are now transient or the winners who are now living in the aftermath with all trade routes disrupted?
Maybe theyre trying to tie the lore reason in with the reason and the BGS more with more 'logical' cause and effect...than just delivering manure for the farms? So it seems more 'connected' or dare I say 'alive'?
So Combat Bonds, war state causes people to flee, same effect, maybe tipped for the losers who are now transient or the winners who are now living in the aftermath with all trade routes disrupted?
Maybe theyre trying to tie the lore reason in with the reason and the BGS more with more 'logical' cause and effect...than just delivering manure for the farms? So it seems more 'connected' or dare I say 'alive'?
I over estimated based on comedy
Could you imagine though?Literal no hard results. Just something tested a while back, I think that 'recently' has some factor, as it was a while ago. I do however think it is worth testing on a low pop system.
Right, so it it totally down to player actions then? I thought there was at least some random component to it.
It's never possible to absolutely prove there's no randomness, I suppose, but the states only appear in systems and on factions where there's at least some player activity, and appear more often and in more reliable patterns the higher the player activity.
(And yes, this includes Natural Disaster - handwave it as there always being some sort of earthquake or solar flare or something going on somewhere in the system, but a faction under the wrong sort of pressures might be unable to mitigate it normally)
Taken from the Standing orders on the Elite Week Discord https://discord.gg/Wtgnsbq
Orders 9 Nov - 10 Nov 3306
We are focussing on preparing Lave for our invasion by supporting our ally Lave Radio Network. The expansion is expected to happen at Nov, 14th (+- 1 day)
In Phra Lak we reached 36.0% (#2) and are now close to a conflict with #1 (39.0%) for control of the system.
In Anyanwu Aegilips Co are still at 5.7%, please do some missions for them to make them safe and get into conflict with Anyanwu Life Group (native).
In Anyanwu LHS 346 Democrats have won their war. Thanks for your efforts.
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally ARrC.
In LHS 397 Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp. are now leading 2-0 in their war, please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 GQ Virginis General Corporation are at war with a native faction (2-1), please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 Wolf 562 Major Inc has an election against a native faction (1-0), please do some peaceful missions for them.
Please remember:
Do NOT work for other factions in our systems, unless requested in the orders.
Do NOT hand in bounties for any faction other than The Dark Wheel in our systems.
Do NOT hand in trade goods or cartography data to stations that we do not own.
Tasks for today:
Bounty Hunting & Combat:
Commodity Trading
- Profitable trades into Lave Station in Lave.
Missions & Passengers
Exploration Data:
Please continue to use EDMC or similar tools to keep local data up to date.
Keep Turning The Wheel, Hamsters!
Orders 9 Nov - 10 Nov 3306
We are focussing on preparing Lave for our invasion by supporting our ally Lave Radio Network. The expansion is expected to happen at Nov, 14th (+- 1 day)
In Phra Lak we reached 36.0% (#2) and are now close to a conflict with #1 (39.0%) for control of the system.
In Anyanwu Aegilips Co are still at 5.7%, please do some missions for them to make them safe and get into conflict with Anyanwu Life Group (native).
In Anyanwu LHS 346 Democrats have won their war. Thanks for your efforts.
In Arque we want to get into conflict with Arque Commodities to gain an asset, we will later give that asset to our ally ARrC.
In LHS 397 Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp. are now leading 2-0 in their war, please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 GQ Virginis General Corporation are at war with a native faction (2-1), please help them win this war.
In LTT 5455 Wolf 562 Major Inc has an election against a native faction (1-0), please do some peaceful missions for them.
Please remember:
Do NOT work for other factions in our systems, unless requested in the orders.
Do NOT hand in bounties for any faction other than The Dark Wheel in our systems.
Do NOT hand in trade goods or cartography data to stations that we do not own.
Tasks for today:
Bounty Hunting & Combat:
- Bounty Hunting in Lave. Hand in to Lave.
- Bounty Hunting in any of our controlled systems. (Anyanwu has a CNB). Hand in to Phra Lak or LHS 397.
- CZ in LHS 397, fight for Lacaille 8760 Allied Corp.
- CZ in LTT 5455, fight for GQ Virginis General Corporation.
Commodity Trading
- Profitable trades into Lave Station in Lave.
Missions & Passengers
- Missions for Lave Radio Network in Lave.
- Missions for The Dark Wheel in Phra Lak, Arque and LHS 397.
- Missions for Aegilips Co in Anyanwu.
- Peaceful missions for Wolf 562 Major Inc in LTT 5455.
Exploration Data:
- Hand in to Lave Station in Lave
- Hand in to Zillig Depot in LHS 397.
Please continue to use EDMC or similar tools to keep local data up to date.
Keep Turning The Wheel, Hamsters!
I completely forgot to post the show Friday! Here it is que'd up to TDW update!
Source: https://youtu.be/BFyi4OvtC2I?t=1853
Source: https://youtu.be/BFyi4OvtC2I
Source: https://youtu.be/BFyi4OvtC2I
