General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[sewerratuk]

The government does not exclude extending vaccination to other age groups but not for the moment.

However, it has just opened the vaccination to all overweight or obese people, which is a priority since these are the main vicitms of covid.

Lots of countries are following the same protocol, just at different speeds.
It’s not that they think less vulnerable don’t need the vaccine, it’s just that they haven’t got round to offering it to them yet, it’s just a matter of priorities.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Sounds like Animal Farm..

That's pretty much it, yep. But I was going for a Bruce Lee voice because my philosophy is strictly Fortune Cookie level.

 

[Patrick_68000]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cine-10-effective-south-african-variant-study

Didn't took that long for the Virus to defeat one Vaccine already.

Another interesting article.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...card-reporting#annex-1-vaccine-analysis-print

"For the Pfizer/BioNTech and Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccines the overall reporting rate is around 3 to 6 Yellow Cards per 1,000 doses administered"

So 1 in 333 to 1 in 166, with AstraZeneca clearly showing much worse results than the others.

Glad to see at least UK is doing such reports.

This proves that the vaccines currently against Covid are not the ultimate solution but one solution among others..

 

[Synkreto]

I'm talking to you about France and the countries of the European Union with the European green certificate.

It's not me who makes the laws.

Yeah, I understood that . What I do not understand is : advise/mandatory vaccinations are "already" pretty normal . Esp. for people living in EU - many of these travel, for various reasons . But suddenly, in the case of a really dangerous pandemic virus, the same concept is an assault on democracy ?

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

While the range of symptoms for the two viruses is similar, the fraction with severe disease appears to be different. For COVID-19, data to date suggest that 80% of infections are mild or asymptomatic, 15% are severe infection, requiring oxygen and 5% are critical infections, requiring ventilation. These fractions of severe and critical infection would be higher than what is observed for influenza infection.

Those most at risk for severe influenza infection are children, pregnant women, elderly, those with underlying chronic medical conditions and those who are immunosuppressed. For COVID-19, our current understanding is that older age and underlying conditions increase the risk for severe infection.

Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%, the infection mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of infections) will be lower. For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%. However, mortality is to a large extent determined by access to and quality of health care.

- W.H.O. figures.

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Similarities and differences between COVID-19 and Influenza

COVID-19 and seasonal influenza (flu) are respiratory infections caused by two different viruses. While some of the signs, symptoms and population groups at risk of severe complications are similar, there are some important differences. This questions and answers page will help you know the...

www.who.int

The difference between 0.1 and 3% is a factor of 30 TIMES BIGGER. As if anybody who watches the news is convinced otherwise. IDK how anybody could get this wrong.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I have never thought of myself as insane, just a little misunderstood.

I can understand, because a cute little dog that talks is something I’ve never seen before.

 

[ianw]

This from December

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

 

[Patrick_68000]

Yes it is well known that old people and those with underlying health conditions such as asthma, COPD, obesity etc are more vulnerable. That’s precisely why the UK has been vaccinating people from high risk to low risk or the risk they pose, from the start.

The longer you take to vaccinate the more chance that a mutation will escape. It is an emergency for all of us. We will all be old and vulnerable one day. Besides which I want life back to normal and vaccines are the only chance of that happening. All my friends and family are vaccinated now so I don’t have to worry about them dying from Covid. I’ve never worried about them dying from complications of having a vaccine.

My age group has come up and I’m getting a vaccine tomorrow. I’m expecting AZ and to be a bit ill afterwards. I’m not even worried about catching the virus but I’m worried about others catching it. Sometimes just “have to take one for the team”.

It seems AZ is not effective against the variants. Other vaccines also seem to have weaknesses.

 

[Synkreto]

And how many decades did you live with influenza going around every winter?
Were you as paranoid all those years?
Did you campaign for lockdowns, a vaccine EVERYONE must be injected with even if they don't want it?
Did you petition your government for an Influenza vaccine passport app on your phone and a piece of paper to say you'd got your annual flu jab?
Did you advocate to deny entry to shops to those who didn't have a their jab that year?

Or did you live with the possibility that the influenza virus was being spread every winter?

And don't give me any rubbish that Covid-19 is different, it's not and it's not any more deadly, we have 15 month's statistics to show it isn't.

I'll try it, exactly once .

Your post and arguments do something interesting : you do not adress the problem . You attack things that are being done to adress the problem, and doing it by weaving unsubstantiated information/arguments into the attacks. All the while attacking the messenger ( again, not adressing the Problem ). Actually, several logical fallacies within a few lines of text . Which is somewhat telling by itself .

Please explain how SARS-CoV-2 ( btw, thats the Virus we are talking about...) is not different from influenza virusses .

Also, please let me know where you get the statistics that show that SARS-CoV-2 is not any more deadly . Because you know, there is a TON of scientific work that shows that it is exactly that : more deadly than common Influenza virusses, by order of magnitude . Also a ton of scientific work that thoroughly debunks anyone that claims it isn't .
For starters, there are by now areas, regions, even countries on the Planet that have higher PFR ( population fatality rate ) due to SARS-CoV-2 than what Influenza has IFR ( Infection fatality rate ) .

Also, please explain the massive waves of sickness and death many countries have had to go through - some twice by now ( despite efforts to try and curb the spread ), and try and show a "usual annual influenza wave" that has had anyhow similar effects . And no, the h1n1 pandemic does not count .

You need to take into consideration that a lot of countries around the world do a LOT of things, over the course of 16, 17 months now, to try and keep that Virus at bay .

What do you think wold have happened if everyone/every country would have just done nothing aganst the spread of the Virus ? Just another "flu season", not many casualties ?

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

It seems AZ is not effective against the variants. Other vaccines also seem to have weaknesses.

AstraZeneca COVID vaccine 70% effective vs B117 variant

www.cidrap.umn.edu

Pfizer, AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccines may offer high efficacy in elderly

www.cidrap.umn.edu

Both of India's vaccines, Covishield and Covaxin, have shown efficacy against the "Indian strain" of coronavirus, also known as B.1.617 variant or "double mutant", a new study has found.

It seems the thing that is not effective is antivax propaganda. At least while this forum's members are awake.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I want life back to normal

The normality is a very relative thing according to people.

My life has not changed a lot since the pandemic. On the contrary, I find it much more pleasant.

Less overproduction, overconsumption, overpollution, very good for the planet which is much more important than the small unnecessary and superficial needs of many people.

It is certain that in my eyes going to drink pints in pubs or going to pile up in stores to buy the latest iPhone, are not points of reference.

Life 'before' is not a reference, it mainly generates the destruction of the environment, flora and fauna, the eruption of viruses, the law of the jungle etc ...

No regrets.

 

[Patrick_68000]

A little bit of research would have told them that AZ are aware and have a booster planned for Autumn this year for the SA variant but i guess it is better to cite material over two months old without that information..
As for the yellow card system, it is for showing side effects of which many are quite mild...but again it is presented in a way to try and cause concern.
Some will see what they want to see and look no further.
Sadly, i do not think there is a cure for that.

Personally, I do not intend to be injected with a syringe every six months, each time a variant comes to do its whims.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Sounds like Animal Farm..

The beast still has twitches.

 

[Synkreto]

Because of lockdowns, social distancing, masks, disinfecting etc.

I am trying to find out whether virus interference plays/played a role in that also ( it somehow/somewhat does re. SARS-CoV-2 vs Rhinovirusses ) but I fail to find any sources allowing me to draw conclusions . Hate being a dilettante .

 

[Patrick_68000]

And how many decades did you live with influenza going around every winter?
Were you as paranoid all those years?
Did you campaign for lockdowns, a vaccine EVERYONE must be injected with even if they don't want it?
Did you petition your government for an Influenza vaccine passport app on your phone and a piece of paper to say you'd got your annual flu jab?
Did you advocate to deny entry to shops to those who didn't have a their jab that year?

Or did you live with the possibility that the influenza virus was being spread every winter?

And don't give me any rubbish that Covid-19 is different, it's not and it's not any more deadly, we have 15 month's statistics to show it isn't.

Indeed, for the moment at the planetary level, the Covid is an epidemic of very medium importance.

Pollution kills 8 million people every year.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Remember when all international trade got borked

Really the last of the concerns here.

And all airlines can leave their planes on the ground, it won't hurt the environment and also the people who are 8 million dying every year because of it.

Pollution is a much more dangerous virus than Covid.

 

[Synkreto]

Personally, I do not intend to be injected with a syringe every six months, each time a variant comes to do its whims.

Here is a caveat : there is a lot of hopefull messaging going around . Which is all well and good . Being able to vaccinate teenagers -> good . Pfizer announcing they are working on actual medication -> good . Loads of other things going on -> good . Possibility to boost up existing vaccination against known variants -> good .

All the while, India is still imploding . What news do we really get out of Brazil these days ? What about that "Sputnik V featuring live Adenovirus?" thing ?

Noone can reliably tell what will happen within the next few months . Noone . By that I mean to say: the prospect of getting this thing somwhat under "control" in certain areas by vaccination and regular booster shots does not mean the pandemic is over already . There still is the real possibility that SARS-CoV-2 will go on surprising us .

One thing seems to be sure : you either get immune by vaccination, or natural infection . Your choice .

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Really the last of the concerns here.

And all airlines can leave their planes on the ground, it won't hurt the environment and also the people who are 8 million dying every year because of it.

Pollution is a much more dangerous virus than Covid.

Aha, the last of concerns?

I suppose you do not depend on trade bringing you your insulin?

 

[Patrick_68000]

Because of lockdowns, social distancing, masks, disinfecting etc.

Yes, who are among the best solutions against the Covid and its future variants.

 

[Synkreto]

Aha, the last of concerns?

I suppose you do not depend on trade bringing you your insulin?

Serious, by these last 2 post, I am wondering whether this is worth it . The ignorance is almost unbearable .