General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Arry]

well, there is a link to an interview (in a pdf form) where apparently the team lead admits that, but I didn't read it. I still would say there is a link

View attachment 225303

Edit: As I said initially - I hope there is more investigation into this. Journalism will never be as rigorous as a scientific peer-reviewed paper, but as journalism I think it makes a good case that there is more to find.

Said PDF?

https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Shi Zhengli Q&A.pdf

....and complete quote? To be found at the bottom of the PDF.

"Q: Given that coronavirus research in most places is done in BSL-2 or BSL-3 labs--and indeed, you WIV didn't even have an operational BSL-4 until recently--why would you do any coronavirus experiments under BSL-4 conditions?

A: The coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories. After the BSL-4 laboratory in our institute has been put into operation, in accordance with the management regulations of BSL-4 laboratory, we have trained the scientific researchers in the BSL-4 laboratory using the low-pathogenic coronaviruses as model viruses, which aims to prepare for conducting the experimental activities of highly pathogenic microorganisms. After the COVID-19 outbreak, our country has stipulated that the cultivation and the animal infection experiments of SARS-CoV-2 should be carried out in BSL-3 laboratory or above. Since the BSL-3 laboratories in our institute do not have the hardware conditions to conduct experiments on non-human primates, and in order to carry out the mentioned research, our institute had applied to the governmental authorities and obtained the qualification to conduct experiments on SARS-CoV-2 for Wuhan P4 laboratory, in which the rhesus monkey animal model, etc. have been carried out. The experimental activities are supervised by our institute’s biosafety committee and complied with the biosafety regulations."

 

[Synkreto]

Said PDF?

https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Shi Zhengli Q&A.pdf

....and complete quote? To be found at the bottom of the PDF.

"Q: Given that coronavirus research in most places is done in BSL-2 or BSL-3 labs--and indeed, you WIV didn't even have an operational BSL-4 until recently--why would you do any coronavirus experiments under BSL-4 conditions?

A: The coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories. After the BSL-4 laboratory in our institute has been put into operation, in accordance with the management regulations of BSL-4 laboratory, we have trained the scientific researchers in the BSL-4 laboratory using the low-pathogenic coronaviruses as model viruses, which aims to prepare for conducting the experimental activities of highly pathogenic microorganisms. After the COVID-19 outbreak, our country has stipulated that the cultivation and the animal infection experiments of SARS-CoV-2 should be carried out in BSL-3 laboratory or above. Since the BSL-3 laboratories in our institute do not have the hardware conditions to conduct experiments on non-human primates, and in order to carry out the mentioned research, our institute had applied to the governmental authorities and obtained the qualification to conduct experiments on SARS-CoV-2 for Wuhan P4 laboratory, in which the rhesus monkey animal model, etc. have been carried out. The experimental activities are supervised by our institute’s biosafety committee and complied with the biosafety regulations."

 

[Synkreto]

One reason that article was worth reading (maybe) is that it pointed out that they were doing the research into the corona viruses in Cat 2 labs - there was no requirement to use Cat 4 labs for them. Cat 2 is more like the precautions dentists use, and so (we now know) not sufficient for SARS2-covid.

Some more to that :

a) Lets.All.Be.Really.Glad. Too many people have no Idea how close to global desaster we still are with this one . And its not even BSL-4 anymore XD .
b) The WIV houses facilities compliant with BSL1, 2, 3, 4 all in the same building(block) .

 

[Northpin]

Look at the list of things that can be done - under the context of routine diagnostic testing admittedly, but really look at the List :

Routine Diagnostic Testing​

Routine diagnostic testing of specimens, such as the following activities, can be handled in a BSL-2 laboratory using Standard Precautions:

• Using automated instruments and analyzers
• Processing initial samples
• Staining and microscopic analysis of fixed smears
• Examination of bacterial cultures
• Pathologic examination and processing of formalin-fixed or otherwise inactivated tissues
• Molecular analysis of extracted nucleic acid preparations
• Final packaging of specimens for transport to diagnostic laboratories for additional testing (specimens should already be in a sealed, decontaminated primary container)
• Using inactivated specimens, such as specimens in nucleic acid extraction buffer
• Performing electron microscopic studies with glutaraldehyde-fixed grids

Labs

COVID-19 resources and guidelines for labs and laboratory workers.

www.cdc.gov

Several sources say research on the Actual Menace as we know him ( SARS-CoV-2 ) can be/is being done under a mixed BSL-2/BSL-3 protocol .

That's exactly the point.
SARS and MERS could be researched in BSL3 facilities.
Generic Coronavirus researching and gain-of-function modifications could be done in as low as BSL2 facilities - even tho such alteration of Coronaviruses could results in a tiny little monster.

Nobody here is saying that this actually happened, but some weird conjectures happened in Wuhan starting with September.
Later on apparently they sealed their databases starting with September and prevented any inquiries in their activity.

Also interesting that the Lancet letter that was so vehemently condemning conspiracy theories that SARS-COV-2 could originate from a lab was apparently drafted by someone with a deep interest to bury any idea that hinted that.

It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr. Daszak’s organization funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”

But anyway, i wont debate that article anymore.
However, claims that SARS-COV-2 is 100% natural and there is absolutely no way for it to be crafted in a lab are as worse as the opposite claims (if any) that are saying that it was 100% made in a lab

 

[Synkreto]

That's exactly the point.
SARS and MERS could be researched in BSL3 facilities.
Generic Coronavirus researching and gain-of-function modifications could be done in as low as BSL2 facilities - even tho such alteration of Coronaviruses could results in a tiny little monster.

Nobody here is saying that this actually happened, but some weird conjectures happened in Wuhan starting with September.
Later on apparently they sealed their databases starting with September and prevented any inquiries in their activity.

Also interesting that the Lancet letter that was so vehemently condemning conspiracy theories that SARS-COV-2 could originate from a lab was apparently drafted by someone with a deep interest to bury any idea that hinted that.



But anyway, i wont debate that article anymore.
However, claims that SARS-COV-2 is 100% natural and there is absolutely no way for it to be crafted in a lab are as worse as the opposite claims (if any) that are saying that it was 100% made in a lab

Right . I can understand how people want to "vehemently condemn conspiracy theories" and have a "deep interest to bury any idea that hinted at that." I truly can .
I also know absence of evidence is not evidence of absence .
As long as we dont KNOW, we simply don't know .

Also, you did not read that *pdf ( Interview), did you ? Neither did I ( well, I did last year, didn't recall, and did not read it this time around ). Arry did us the courtesy .

General / Off-Topic - The safest place

well, there is a link to an interview (in a pdf form) where apparently the team lead admits that, but I didn't read it. I still would say there is a link 🤷‍♀️ Edit: As I said initially - I hope there is more investigation into this. Journalism will never be as rigorous as a scientific...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Edit: As I said initially - I hope there is more investigation into this. Journalism will never be as rigorous as a scientific peer-reviewed paper, but as journalism I think it makes a good case that there is more to find.

Considering our collective lack of information, this is certain. I did not agree with it, for reasons published here, but it was very well written and worth reading IMHO.

I cannot tell when or if virologists are blowing smoke at me to obscure something. Is there good or bad evidence that the virus is natural?
IDK.

Why isn't the WHO origins team chasing the extra-China leads?
Are they bad science? Unreliable? They were peer reviewed and published.
IDK.

Will we ever get a definitive answer? Maybe not.

 

[Synkreto]

Belief doesn't guarantee truth either.

"Reality is that which, when you stop beliveing in it, doesn't go away."

Am constantly amazed how simple it actually is .

 

[Northpin]

Also, you did not read that *pdf ( Interview), did you ? Neither did I ( well, I did last year, didn't recall, and did not read it this time around ). Arry did us the courtesy .

yea, but the discussion was what happened before the Covid-19 outbreak was acknowledged. And before that, they were still using BLS2 labs for g-o-f on bat coronaviruses
Ofc that after the outbreak they upped their game and BLS3 was mandatory for SARS2 research - as it already was for SARS1 and MERS way before 2020.

Also, apparently none of the coronaviruses have The furin cleavage site present in SARS2 which even more curious, contains a pair of Arginine Codons favored by human cells and not by coronaviruses

As everyone knows (or may at least recall from high school), the genetic code uses three units of DNA to specify each amino acid unit of a protein chain. When read in groups of 3, the 4 different kinds of DNA can specify 4 x 4 x 4 or 64 different triplets, or codons as they are called. Since there are only 20 kinds of amino acid, there are more than enough codons to go around, allowing some amino acids to be specified by more than one codon. The amino acid arginine, for instance, can be designated by any of the six codons CGU, CGC, CGA, CGG, AGA or AGG, where A, U, G and C stand for the four different kinds of unit in RNA.

Here’s where it gets interesting. Different organisms have different codon preferences. Human cells like to designate arginine with the codons CGT, CGC or CGG. But CGG is coronavirus’s least popular codon for arginine. Keep that in mind when looking at how the amino acids in the furin cleavage site are encoded in the SARS2 genome.
Now the functional reason why SARS2 has a furin cleavage site, and its cousin viruses don’t, can be seen by lining up (in a computer) the string of nearly 30,000 nucleotides in its genome with those of its cousin coronaviruses, of which the closest so far known is one called RaTG13. Compared with RaTG13, SARS2 has a 12-nucleotide insert right at the S1/S2 junction. The insert is the sequence T-CCT-CGG-CGG-GC. The CCT codes for proline, the two CGG’s for two arginines, and the GC is the beginning of a GCA codon that codes for alanine.

There are several curious features about this insert but the oddest is that of the two side-by-side CGG codons. Only 5% of SARS2’s arginine codons are CGG, and the double codon CGG-CGG has not been found in any other beta-coronavirus. So how did SARS2 acquire a pair of arginine codons that are favored by human cells but not by coronaviruses?

So there are a lot of conjectures that are dubious to say at least.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Talking of earlier dates of possible covid infections, I remember reading about a number of unexplained pneumonia deaths in the USA earlier in 2019 than September - at the time they could only point to vapes and were trying to blame thc oil used in some of those cases...
In Italy recently, they found covid response antigens in random blood samples taken all the way back to early September.
I’d like to see research from similar samples from other countries too. There’s sure to be plenty of samples lying around from throughout 2019.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Coronavirus has killed 6.9 million people, more than double the 3.2 million deaths that have been officially reported worldwide, according to analysis from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington (IHME).
At 574,000 deaths, the United States has reported more Covid-19 causalities than any other country. But the IHME report estimates the US death toll at more than 905,000 people -- around 58% higher.

Estimation of total and excess mortality due to COVID-19 | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation

Our updated modeling strategy now estimates total COVID-19 mortality, including unreported deaths due to COVID-19.

www.healthdata.org

Edit: fixed the table troubles on main system.

Country	Total COVID-19 deaths	Reported COVID-19 deaths
United States of America	905,289	574,043
India	654,395	221,181
Mexico	617,127	217,694
Brazil	595,903	408,680
Russian Federation	593,610	109,334
United Kingdom	209,661	150,519
Italy	175,832	121,257

Sorry, on mobile device.

We knew that deaths were underreported, but this estimation is probably better as it looks at excess deaths. Italy gets good marks for accuracy. The Russians are atrocious.
These revised figures do not impact previous Washington School of Medicine in St Louis data, which adds 8 deaths per recorded death over the next 6 months, using US figures. We cannot extrapolate that to other countries, since obviously health care quality is a major factor.

 

[Synkreto]

A thousand times this....

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Trying this table

Sorry, on mobile device.

Thanks for posting Robin, am amazed you got a table at all!

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

We knew it was going to worsen in the short term. I project we will hit overflow on Covid beds in 5 days, and this is agitating our Prime Minister. (The overflow, not me. )

T&T on the brink: LAST CHANCE LOCKDOWN ATTEMPT

Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley says Trinidad and Tobago is on the brink of losing control of the management of the Covid-19 pandemic, and that he was “personally and officially”

trinidadexpress.com

More bad news, China is sending us 100,000 doses of Sinopharm. WHO has approved it. The desperate Prime Minister is looking for any straw to grasp. This is the same vaccine now failing the Seychelles.

I will turn it down if offered. Cannot reccomend it. Not going to publically disparage it in the press but none of my patients will be taking it. 35000 Oxford vaccines are due first, so I'll try for a second dose of that.

Even "essential" businesses are set to close at 8 pm. Not certain if a private hospital counts, but we are not going to discontinue service. I really don't want exposure now though, on call overnight.

Been raining white for 3 days now. Lots of floods.

 

[Synkreto]

We knew it was going to worsen in the short term. I project we will hit overflow on Covid beds in 5 days, and this is agitating our Prime Minister. (The overflow, not me. )

T&T on the brink: LAST CHANCE LOCKDOWN ATTEMPT

Prime Minister Dr Keith Rowley says Trinidad and Tobago is on the brink of losing control of the management of the Covid-19 pandemic, and that he was “personally and officially”

trinidadexpress.com

More bad news, China is sending us 100,000 doses of Sinopharm. WHO has approved it. The desperate Prime Minister is looking for any straw to grasp. This is the same vaccine now failing the Seychelles.

I will turn it down if offered. Cannot reccomend it. Not going to publically disparage it in the press but none of my patients will be taking it. 35000 Oxford vaccines are due first, so I'll try for a second dose of that.

Even "essential" businesses are set to close at 8 pm. Not certain if a private hospital counts, but we are not going to discontinue service. I really don't want exposure now though, on call overnight.

Been raining white for 3 days now. Lots of floods.

Damnit !

Anything I can do from thousands of miles away ?

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Damnit !

Anything I can do from thousands of miles away ?

Sit tight and stay well.
That's my plan here too!

 

[Synkreto]

Sit tight and stay well.
That's my plan here too!

You go ! Me too .

 

[Northpin]

My second jab is due next week. And my daughter got her first one yesterday.
Hopefully by the end of the year we will have them available as pills, even if will not happen by then, we will be getting there eventually.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Sorry I'm late. 14 hours post 2nd shot.

I had my second shot today at roughly 0930. Many fewer people this time. Total time spent, including the 15 minute observation period was just under a half hour. USN medic very efficient. Paperwork being handled well.

Outside, smokers hate masks. I got caught downwind on leaving. Annoying.

Side effects noted so far: Slight fatigue, neck stiffness and soreness, upper right arm pain at the injection site, and Number 2.

Resting, hydrating. Food intake cut down due to obvious reasons...

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Not quite up to colonoscopy prep levels, but annoying...

 

[Ralph Vargr]

OK, trying something daring. Chicken soup.