Drew Wagar's Thoughts

[Cohen the Worrior]

You may not be aware, but in English "along, down the line" has a different meaning to "definitely, positively by 2021". HTH

We came from that was never promised.
It was promised nine years ago. I think we've reached along, down the line by now. Especially since some are already claiming "who cares, it's an old game".
Try to be a bit consistent.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I am not defending a game, and your assumption that nobody likes it is bizarre. Want to make suggestions or fill in bug reports? Fine, enjoy. Making an hour long video about what compelled the Super Important Ian Skippy to give up on playing FS2020? Lol, that's just attention-craving sadness.

Life is shorter than you may think. Spend it on stuff you enjoy.

I watched the video, and while I admit that it was a little bit on the long side for my taste (I listened to it while working so no time was wasted for me), I did largely enjoy hearing about the "why" because it was done in a balanced, rational, calm, pleasant way. And probably also because I realised his reasons for dropping it are more aligned with my own criticism of the game than I thought, but generally I simply enjoy hearing about other people's views on a shared hobby, particularly when they were a lot more of an enthusiast about it than I ever could/would want to be.

I'd actually be quite interested why you gave up on FS2020.

 

[Axacuatl]

Well, I suppose I could mention the Kickstarter here, and Braben's dev diaries where he explicitly said you would be able to walk around your ship

Thinking about this endless discussion - has anybody in the forum ever tried to play< around with a 3 D program or take pen & paper and actually see if they could consistently fit the different modules and compartments as per the ships specs into the shape & size of the ship's exteriors as they are being presented in the game ? It has often been speculated that the reasoning lies in having screwed up the nos. of class X compartments in ships which then prove to be too small to sensibly include such compartments, but has anybody really tried ? The cargo racks, internal modules are largely discretionary in their absolute size, so there is wiggle room. Fighter and SRV bays, and passenger cabins are a bit less flexible to be played around with, I would guess. And then you need to add gangways, and the bridges are exactly specified of course as we can see (and in VR walk around in) them.

Would be interesting to see if that is really an obstacle which cannot be overcome - with the wiggle room of the uncertain boundaries of so many of the modules & compartments, it strikes me as odd that there should be no real option to get it done at the end. Of course you have to start from the most critically undersized ship exterior, and then just use some phantasy on those who would seem to offer too much internal room for their specs - why not give them a larger captain's cabin (if it's Imperial, surely it will have a spa & sauna ?) etc. etc.

 

[Axacuatl]

In general FDev will never say never to any possible future feature, because from the outset this game was set up as a ongoing development and they will not even know for themselves which priorities they will be setting if they really are still working on it in 10 years from now. Even their road map will not be that conclusive because the economic repercussions of their next steps in the coming 2-3 years may lead to a reconsideration of what they had planned for the time beyond that nearer future anyhow. So the only real certainty one can take from their negative statements is that it most certainly wont happen in the coming 2-3 years.

Unfortunately, with the commercial model they chose (one time fee, plus very occasional DLC fees instead of a subscription), the income generated by ED will not be great, and that will diminish their motivation to invest and create for the game. I would hope that they would either release paid DLC's much more frequently, so that there is an intrinsic motivation for them to further the game - those users who are lost on that path because they don't want to pay that kind of fees, are a collateral damage - unfortunately this game is going to stagnate at the same rate as now and even worse if FDev don't change their commercial approach. And because I really fancy the game, and have spent endless time in it, I am more than happy to financially support improvements to the current approach of FDev.

What doesn't make any sense, is to complain about FDev not doing enough for the game and at the same time believe that all of it should be cool with your fee paid for the purchase years ago. How would FDev recover the investment in that case ? Just with the one DLC every couple of years ? Or with the very few new players it is attracting with every new DLC ? No way that that adds up at the end of the day.

The player base would have to unify and propose such model to FDev in order to get them thinking about it. Commitments, from both sides.
But alas, that is not going to happen.

 

[zimms]

I do laugh because the forum for years asked for feet and when it came all you could hear was NO NOT THIS!!

What we got at release was a UI that was broken in some places and lacking functionality in others, FPS down to single digits, textures and lighting that looked like a downgrade to a lot (even the majority?) of players and the console version has been postponed indefinitely.

Are you surprised players said "No, not like this!"

 

[Juniper]

Thinking about this endless discussion - has anybody in the forum ever tried to play< around with a 3 D program or take pen & paper and actually see if they could consistently fit the different modules and compartments as per the ships specs into the shape & size of the ship's exteriors as they are being presented in the game ? It has often been speculated that the reasoning lies in having screwed up the nos. of class X compartments in ships which then prove to be too small to sensibly include such compartments, but has anybody really tried ? The cargo racks, internal modules are largely discretionary in their absolute size, so there is wiggle room. Fighter and SRV bays, and passenger cabins are a bit less flexible to be played around with, I would guess. And then you need to add gangways, and the bridges are exactly specified of course as we can see (and in VR walk around in) them.

Would be interesting to see if that is really an obstacle which cannot be overcome - with the wiggle room of the uncertain boundaries of so many of the modules & compartments, it strikes me as odd that there should be no real option to get it done at the end. Of course you have to start from the most critically undersized ship exterior, and then just use some phantasy on those who would seem to offer too much internal room for their specs - why not give them a larger captain's cabin (if it's Imperial, surely it will have a spa & sauna ?) etc. etc.

They made a big song and dance at the time at having designed ships specifically with interiors in mind, with everything scaled appropriately. That was the core of Braben's promise back in the Kickstarter days.

I'm sure there are technical challenges relating to the transition between indoor/outdoor, but practically every other engine has overcome this and managed it - so I guess it's a limitation of Cobra that they can't (or won't) fix.

My assumption is that it's a combination of that, plus developer inertia, plus not being able to think up any grindy "gameplay" that would make it worthwhile to them. So they would rather tell us that we don't want it, and that they won't ever do it. Both of these things were the final straw for me, and made me realise that enough was enough.

 

[Sighman]

Thinking about this endless discussion - has anybody in the forum ever tried to play< around with a 3 D program or take pen & paper and actually see if they could consistently fit the different modules and compartments as per the ships specs into the shape & size of the ship's exteriors as they are being presented in the game ? It has often been speculated that the reasoning lies in having screwed up the nos. of class X compartments in ships which then prove to be too small to sensibly include such compartments, but has anybody really tried ? The cargo racks, internal modules are largely discretionary in their absolute size, so there is wiggle room. Fighter and SRV bays, and passenger cabins are a bit less flexible to be played around with, I would guess. And then you need to add gangways, and the bridges are exactly specified of course as we can see (and in VR walk around in) them.

Would be interesting to see if that is really an obstacle which cannot be overcome - with the wiggle room of the uncertain boundaries of so many of the modules & compartments, it strikes me as odd that there should be no real option to get it done at the end. Of course you have to start from the most critically undersized ship exterior, and then just use some phantasy on those who would seem to offer too much internal room for their specs - why not give them a larger captain's cabin (if it's Imperial, surely it will have a spa & sauna ?) etc. etc.

For interiors to work, I'm pretty certain you'd have to pass through a transition (a bit like entering an SRV), and then you're in a completely new instance.

Therefore, fitting the interior into the exterior is irrelevant. They can TARDIS the design, and while a few would get hung up counting the number of footsteps inside and out and declaring 'it doesn't fit' - nobody else would care.

 

[TSINI]

"Polishing bug fixes". I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean.

I think they meant "Polishing bug fixers" and that their bug fixing team are all bald.

https://imgur.com/CYSfuKz

 

[Alien]

I must have been dreaming then.

No, not dreaming, but you've made the mistake of thinking a video of David or the other developers saying "This is something we'd like to see in the game" is the same as "This is something that WILL be in the game".

I haven't had to point out the difference between a Kickstarter promise and a "things we'd like to see" for a long time, so you aren't the first to make that mistake.

 

[Winterwalker]

Unfortunately, with the commercial model they chose (one time fee, plus very occasional DLC fees instead of a subscription), the income generated by ED will not be great, and that will diminish their motivation to invest and create for the game. I would hope that they would either release paid DLC's much more frequently, so that there is an intrinsic motivation for them to further the game - those users who are lost on that path because they don't want to pay that kind of fees, are a collateral damage - unfortunately this game is going to stagnate at the same rate as now and even worse if FDev don't change their commercial approach. And because I really fancy the game, and have spent endless time in it, I am more than happy to financially support improvements to the current approach of FDev.

I think the model of regular DLC does get easier once all the franeworks are in. Really with Odyssey / Elite Feet we're still in core development though.

Once you get beyond that I think it gets easier to see things like .. the Powerplay Map copied and pasted with Powers replaced by Major Factions, at war. Copy/paste again for ground Thargoid infestations .. again for a deadly virus sweeping the bubble or a terrorism cell.

"Armed Service", "Thargoid Perdition" or "The Great Gal-demic" are potentially profitable DLC type titles?

(Need to get the frame rates up first though!!)

 

[Alien]

We came from that was never promised.
It was promised nine years ago. I think we've reached along, down the line by now. Especially since some are already claiming "who cares, it's an old game".
Try to be a bit consistent.

That's not a promise, no matter how much you insist it is.
And you do realise game development changes over the years. I can't say why Frontier never developed ship interiors, only they can, but don't confuse "things we'd like to do" with "This will definitely be in the game".

 

[Juniper]

No, not dreaming, but you've made the mistake of thinking a video of David or the other developers saying "This is something we'd like to see in the game" is the same as "This is something that WILL be in the game".

I haven't had to point out the difference between a Kickstarter promise and a "things we'd like to see" for a long time, so you aren't the first to make that mistake.

Funny, because Braben specifically says:

"You WILL be able to walk around inside your ship, you WILL be able to get out of your ship, walk around inside space stations, other vehicles, all that sort of thing."

Words are important. It helps to pay attention to them. He didn't say "we would like to", he said "you will be able to". Spot the difference?

 

[Alien]

Funny, because Braben specifically says:

"You WILL be able to walk around inside your ship, you WILL be able to get out of your ship, walk around inside space stations, other vehicles, all that sort of thing."

Come on Juniper, you've been here a while, you know the difference between Frontier saying "Things we'd like to do" and "This WILL be in the game".
I shouldn't have to explain it to YOU.

 

[Winterwalker]

"You WILL be able to walk around inside your ship, you WILL be able to get out of your ship, walk around inside space stations, other vehicles, all that sort of thing."

He did say that.

3/4 of the way there .. though 'walking around inside your ship,' being first, kind of makes the headline.

 

[Juniper]

Come on Juniper, you've been here a while, you know the difference between Frontier saying "Things we'd like to do" and "This WILL be in the game".
I shouldn't have to explain it to YOU.

Indeed not, but he didn't say "This is what we'd like to do" - he said "This is what you WILL be able to do... down the line."

As I said, words are important.

 

[Winterwalker]

"... down the line."

Phew. Saved by the disclaimer!

 

[Alien]

He did say that.

3/4 of the way there .. though 'walking around inside your ship,' being first, kind of makes the headline.

OK,
It was a kickstarter pitch video. It was to convince people to back the kickstarter. It was NOT part of the kickstarter pledges. It was very clearly "things we'd like to do". Anyone who took it as "this WILL be in the game" are the confused ones. That is why Frontier say things like "We have no plans to at the moment", it's because people think Frontier are promising something they are not.

The closest they got to promising something recently that they didn't deliver, was the Armstrong Moment comment by (I think) Arthur, and even then that's down to interpretation.

 

[Juniper]

He did say that.

3/4 of the way there .. though 'walking around inside your ship,' being first, kind of makes the headline.

But now they're saying it will never happen. Which kind of makes all the design choices that they were making back then wrt scale etc, and which David was trumpeting loudly in this particular video as a sales tactic, somewhat redundant.

Ever feel you've been misled?

 

[Juniper]

OK,
It was a kickstarter pitch video. It was to convince people to back the kickstarter. It was NOT part of the kickstarter pledges. It was very clearly "things we'd like to do". Anyone who took it as "this WILL be in the game" are the confused ones. That is why Frontier say things like "We have no plans to at the moment", it's because people think Frontier are promising something they are not.

The closest they got to promising something recently that they didn't deliver, was the Armstrong Moment comment by (I think) Arthur, and even then that's down to interpretation.

Sorry, but, no.

For the hard of thinking again... he explicitly used the words "You will be able to walk around inside your ship". Quoted verbatim. This is not the same as "stuff we'd like to do", but a specific, deliberate promise about a specific thing... as you say, to get people to part with money during the Kickstarter.

Frontier have of course said "We would like to do this..." at various points, most notably in the DDF, but this is not that... no matter how much revisionism you try and apply here. It's all there, literally from the horse's mouth. And it is 100% indisputable.

 

[Alien]

But now they're saying it will never happen. Which kind of makes all the design choices that they were making back then wrt scale etc, and which David was trumpeting loudly in this particular video as a sales tactic, somewhat redundant.

Ever feel you've been misled?

I might be wrong, maybe you've seen them say for definite ship interiors will NEVER happen, and while yes it seems ever increasingly unlikely, as far as I am aware, Frontier only ever say "no plas to at the moment" when asked about ship interiors.