What is the Point of Manticore’s Oppressor?

[SergMx]

The stationary target and shooter assumption was to make the math easier to compute, as to include a moving target and shooter would necessitate knowing their relative velocities and the shooter's hit probability as a function of distance - assuming they only pick one direction to move. Messy, but doable for sure.

If we start factoring in evasive maneuvering (sidestep dodging / A-D spam, occasional crouch thrown in to throw off headshots, peek-shooting / jiggle-peeking around corners, etc.) TTK then starts to vary wildly, which is where my concerns about the Oppressor's low velocity and Odyssey's high TTK in general come from.

The static case gives us a good benchmark for the optimal TTK scenario that we can easily go back to and compare other weapons with, independent of a shooter's skill.

As for the 30%, I'm not quite sure I follow -


If you're referring to the damage headshots do, Plasma weapons have a 1.5x headshot multiplier. If you're asking what happens if we increase the Oppressor's base damage by 30% from 2.4 to 3.12, that would mean:

• 20 bodyshots for TTKs of 2.99s point-blank | 3.49s @ 35 meters
• 13 headshots for TTKs of 1.94s point-blank | 2.44s @ 35 meters

Oppressor bodyshot TTK still lags the AR-50 at 35m (2.66s) by 0.83s while headshots are slightly faster than AR-50 bodyshots by 0.22s. If we factor in the Headshot Damage mod:

• The Oppressor gains a Headshot Multiplier of 2.3, so each headshot deals 7.18 MJs before resistances (50% reduction on a G5 Dominator)
• This results in 9 headshots for a point-blank TTK of 1.34s and a TTK @ 35m of 1.84s.

...which is certainly interesting. I've stated in the past the Oppressor's main issue is applying its damage due to its low projectile velocity, but the recent mathematical discussion makes me wonder if a damage boost is also needed. 30% seems like a lot; however, there may be some justification for increasing its damage by that much or somewhere around there.

Thank you very much for your answer, I don't know if I understood everything correctly because of the translation.
1. damage tests are very good. But when moving may be missed, that is, the damage is 0.
2. Why is it done differently in the Odyssey. The suit has plasma resistance and the suit is not destroyed, and with the help of health kits you repaired health...
3. what is the suit's shield? Is it important that you shoot in the head with the shield ? What is the damage resistance of the shield ?
4. 30% increase in non-targeted shot on plasma (all Manticore). Non-aimed i.e. on the run at a glance ...

 

[Jmanis]

I'm a fan of the Oppressor, for a number of reasons.

• I hate and suck at hitscan weapons. Granted I'm not that much better with non-hitscan, but the difference is negligible.
• Context switches rock my focus hard. So switching between laser/kinetic weaponry as shields go up/shields go down is a great way for me to end up dead.
• Kinda related to 1, I don't have good fine motor control. So things like the Executioner aren't really in my forte compared to the tormentor.
• I prefer having a visible fall of shot and trajectory. More of a mental thing than anything else
• The high-capacity mag allows you to maintain fire-initiative for longer (enemy are quite reactive to taking damage which helps shape the battlefield)
• In particular, the high-capacity mag better deals with the circumstance of a mostly-dead enemies getting shields back. Low-shields are pants to deal with using kinetics, while whittling down that last 25% using a laser rifle is less than ideal.. and frustrating to switch for such small amounts of protection. Oppressor just deals with both neatly.
• Universal damage, despite being lower, allows for easier switching of targets. I can drop an anti-shield grenade and get some of them. I can down an unshielded target or two, and then focus fire on the shielded targets without breaking.

There's a lot of personal preference hooked in with that, but I don't feel like that's a negative thing.

Outside of elite, my go-to weapons are usually burst-fire rifles or LMGs, none of which are in Elite... burst-fire for the aforementioned aiming problems... LMGs for being able to stay out of cover firing. The latter is much more achievable in Elite thanks to it's combat mechanics.

I mean... I wouldn't say no to a damage boost... but I don't particularly think it needs one either. The high-cap mag and ability to maintain fire is really the main utility of it. Functionally, it's fine.

 

[SergMx]

Found another one:
...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErJQ3zFnag

Did I get that right?
Did you do it on purpose so that someone who doesn't understand this gun wouldn't accidentally buy it?

 

[Morbad]

Did I get that right?
Did you do it on purpose so that someone who doesn't understand this gun wouldn't accidentally buy it?

Pretty much. It's a crap gun and range is one of the worst mods for it.

I could just leave it so anyone tempted by it can find out the hard way, but this is more entertaining for me.

 

[Lu-v H8-2020]

Found another one:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErJQ3zFnag

"Buying useless premiums is caring" thread should be a thing :3 thank you for your participation cmdr o7

 

[Keloot]

one of the worst weapons in the history of gaming.. and one of my frist weapons that i graded to grade 5 .. lmao .. as soon as i grade 5 it and saw the damage . i sawped back to the aphelion...

 

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

I'm a fan of the Oppressor, for a number of reasons.

• I hate and suck at hitscan weapons. Granted I'm not that much better with non-hitscan, but the difference is negligible.
• Context switches rock my focus hard. So switching between laser/kinetic weaponry as shields go up/shields go down is a great way for me to end up dead.
• Kinda related to 1, I don't have good fine motor control. So things like the Executioner aren't really in my forte compared to the tormentor.
• I prefer having a visible fall of shot and trajectory. More of a mental thing than anything else
• The high-capacity mag allows you to maintain fire-initiative for longer (enemy are quite reactive to taking damage which helps shape the battlefield)
• In particular, the high-capacity mag better deals with the circumstance of a mostly-dead enemies getting shields back. Low-shields are pants to deal with using kinetics, while whittling down that last 25% using a laser rifle is less than ideal.. and frustrating to switch for such small amounts of protection. Oppressor just deals with both neatly.
• Universal damage, despite being lower, allows for easier switching of targets. I can drop an anti-shield grenade and get some of them. I can down an unshielded target or two, and then focus fire on the shielded targets without breaking.

There's a lot of personal preference hooked in with that, but I don't feel like that's a negative thing.

Outside of elite, my go-to weapons are usually burst-fire rifles or LMGs, none of which are in Elite... burst-fire for the aforementioned aiming problems... LMGs for being able to stay out of cover firing. The latter is much more achievable in Elite thanks to it's combat mechanics.

I mean... I wouldn't say no to a damage boost... but I don't particularly think it needs one either. The high-cap mag and ability to maintain fire is really the main utility of it. Functionally, it's fine.

As a fan of the Oppressor, what mods do you have on yours?

 

[Jmanis]

As a fan of the Oppressor, what mods do you have on yours?

Right now, none. It's G3, but tbh, I haven't done any engineer unlocks, not for wont of ability... but rather, I have general issues with the game activity loops more broadly for Odyssey. As someone who seeks BGS/influence effects and, where possible, decent credits, neither of which are particularly forthcoming form Odyssey.

Where engineering materials in the space game was a natural fallout of those activities, engineering seems to be the only real outcome of doing Odyssey. If the outcomes I seek (BGS and credits) don't naturally fall out of Odyssey, why do I want equipment to perform suboptimally, more?

That said, spitballing I'd probably go:

• Expanded magazine
• Faster Handling
• Reload Speed
• Stability

It's not doing anything special to it... rather it's just improving what it's good at; mag size means you can keep fire on the enemy for longer, faster handling gets you rounds on target quicker, reload speed is self explanatory, and stability just for better overall maintenance of fire application on the enemy.

Reasons against the others:

• Audio Masking/Noise Suppression; only really useful on (near)instant-kill weapons, which this isn't.
• Greater Range; You shouldn't be using this beyond mid-range anyway.
• Headshot damage; you're not getting headshots with this.
• Hipfire Accuracy; I mean, you could replace stability with this... but are you ever really going to fire a rifle from the hip? Pistols sure, but not rifles.
• Scope; Because aiming relies on tracking your shots, looking through a scope just makes that harder... and again, you're not operating at ranges that really need it.
• Stowed reload; could replace reload speed... mostly a personal preference thing.

I really see it as being a support weapon, not a kill weapon. When roaming alone, that's obviously not great... though in a non-dominator suit, I stick with it because I don't want to get caught out with a kinetic-or-energy-only rifle when my Tormentor runs out of ammo.

But in a CZ, where you can fight with allies... because AI is so responsive to taking fire (running away, taking cover, sometimes to unreasonable lengths), being able to spray a lot of targets and get them running gives the allied squad valuable time to get fire on the enemies (and that's really important in high CZs, where their weapons pack a punch). You simply don't have the ammo in the other rifles apply that sort of suppression for very long, but the Oppressor is great at that... indeed, it "Oppresses", keeping the enemy under hardship, allowing your allies to strike the kills.

 

[Jmanis]

Tangentially, on people suggesting the "Plasma Rifle" would be better positioned as an LMG, I wholeheartedly agree... but I also don't think it necessarily needs changes. You could increase ammo capacity and ROF, in exchange for a comparable decrease in damage, but it's still not going to fix it's ability to kill.

And for me, this is something FD got right with the combat systems, where everyone has shields and can therefore "take a bit of a hit" first.

I saw this a while back and it hit some really good points.

Spoiler: Why LMGs usually suck in games

The primary function of an LMG isn't to kill, it's to suppress, and suppression only works if fear of death is present. Paraphrasing what the video says "the point of LMGs is to put so many rounds out, nobody wants to put their head out". Against players, that's never going to work, and I'll concede the Oppressor simply has no place in on-foot PvP.

But FD have done a good job to get the enemy to react to being shot. Often in a CZ I'll see a group of 4 or 5 enemies crossing to take a control point. I'll sprint over and spray Oppressor fire onto that group and they disperse and take firing positions. So... instead of five enemies now holding a position (which is gonna be pretty untakable at that point), you've got one. And it's much easier to then take down that single enemy while you hold back the enemy.

If the enemy just ignored that fire (like they do in most games), then the Oppressor would be very useless. Yes, you can do the same effect with any other weapon, but the limited ammo means you can't maintain that long. The Oppressor can stay in the fight for much longer, and that's really important if you're controlling the battlefield, which is the role of the Oppressor to me.

 

[SergMx]

...

• Hipfire Accuracy; I mean, you could replace stability with this... but are you ever really going to fire a rifle from the hip? Pistols sure, but not rifles.
• Scope; Because aiming relies on tracking your shots, looking through a scope just makes that harder... and again, you're not operating at ranges that really need it.

...

My translator must be translating something wrong.
I don't understand the 2 opposing opinions and yet again ignoring 30%.

I realise that a scope is unnecessary and even a hindrance when running. But why throw away 30%?

Improved Hip Fire Accuracy

Reduces weapon fire spread outside of ADS stance, improving accuracy. — In-Game Description Improved Hip Fire Accuracy is an Engineering modification that can be applied to Handheld Weapons. This modification can be applied by the following Engineers: Baltanos Terra Velasquez Yarden Bond...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

 

[Jmanis]

My translator must be translating something wrong.
I don't understand the 2 opposing opinions and yet again ignoring 30%.

I realise that a scope is unnecessary and even a hindrance when running. But why throw away 30%?

Improved Hip Fire Accuracy

Reduces weapon fire spread outside of ADS stance, improving accuracy. — In-Game Description Improved Hip Fire Accuracy is an Engineering modification that can be applied to Handheld Weapons. This modification can be applied by the following Engineers: Baltanos Terra Velasquez Yarden Bond...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

Basically I'm saying you want to aim down sights (therefore no hip fire), but you don't want that scoped.

Two disadvantages of a scope on the oppressor.

• aiming the Oppressor requires you to watch your shot trajectory. This is harder to do with a scope as it limits your field of view.
• similarly, a scope gives you better focus on a single target, at the cost of field of view. This reduces situational awareness... and situational awareness is critical when trying to shape the battlefield.

As an example, if I'm aiming at someone in a building window using ironsights, i still have full visibility of my surrounds. If I'm aiming down a scope, I'll only see the window (or blurry surrounds, if my non master eye stays open)

For the oppressor... you need awareness, but accuracy, but ADS without a scope is still more accurate than hipfire, but without losing situational awareness.

There may be some advantage as the scope effect isn't that bad, but i think there's more utility from the other mods, particularly at the ranges you want to use it at.

 

[SergMx]

Basically I'm saying you want to aim down sights (therefore no hip fire), but you don't want that scoped.

Two disadvantages of a scope on the oppressor.

• aiming the Oppressor requires you to watch your shot trajectory. This is harder to do with a scope as it limits your field of view.
• similarly, a scope gives you better focus on a single target, at the cost of field of view. This reduces situational awareness... and situational awareness is critical when trying to shape the battlefield.

As an example, if I'm aiming at someone in a building window using ironsights, i still have full visibility of my surrounds. If I'm aiming down a scope, I'll only see the window (or blurry surrounds, if my non master eye stays open)

For the oppressor... you need awareness, but accuracy, but ADS without a scope is still more accurate than hipfire, but without losing situational awareness.

There may be some advantage as the scope effect isn't that bad, but i think there's more utility from the other mods, particularly at the ranges you want to use it at.

I must be missing something.
After all, just shooting from the hip (not pressing the RKMouse) is to cover the battlefield more and run and see everything.

For the oppressor... you need awareness, but accuracy, but ADS without a scope is still more accurate than hipfire, but without losing situational awareness.

That's exactly what this mod is for, to shoot more accurately without having to aim with the right mouse button. For MANTICORE, that's 30 % !

P.S.
By the way it is not quite clear how this mod works, does it just increase the whole picture by 30% ? Not really clear.

 

[Vardaugas]

As a side note: The purpose of an LMG in EDO would be to keep clipping shields on enemies so they don't start to recharge. In that sense it does force enemies to take cover until their shields are back up again. How significant such a purpose would be I leave up to debate.

 

[Jmanis]

I must be missing something.
After all, just shooting from the hip (not pressing the RKMouse) is to cover the battlefield more and run and see everything.

Yeah, so for me, there's definitely more nuance to it than that. Suppressive fire from LMG's isn't a "fire from the hip, spray and pray" affair. Firing from the hip without aiming is for instinctive firing in CQB, so for SMGs, shotguns and such where the target is near point-blank and you're trying to avoid a shotgun round to the face. Certainly, the Oppressor gets some advantages from operating in a close-quarters environment compared to range, but as has been highlighted, it's takedown speed simply isn't fast enough. An Oppressor is simply not going to down the target fast enough.

Suppressive gets applied from an established, fixed position, and you want to (actually, you must) aim, but accuracy isn't your goal here. A scope is more useful if you're lining up a headshot or using hitscan weaponry, where pinpoint accuracy is necessary. No such accuracy is needed here, so ironsights for a "general point of aim" is more than sufficient. Again, it's not that a scope wouldn't have any positive effects, it's just there's better modules you can use.

Loss of accuracy from hip firing is, in part, because you aren't actually confident of exactly where you're firing, other than "forwards". Suppressive fire needs to be directed (i.e aimed), but not accurate.

Just to reiterate, my mod choices are not to compensate for the Oppressor's weaknesses, rather, they're to play to it's strengths.
Accuracy is a weakness of the Oppressor. The main influence on the Oppressor's accuracy weakness is not aiming accuracy or firing accuracy, it's the fact it's not a hitscan weapon, and no engineering will fix that.
Quantity of rounds (expanded magazine), continuous fire (stability), battlefield control (fast handling) and persistence (quick reload) are all strengths.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Right now, none. It's G3, but tbh, I haven't done any engineer unlocks, not for wont of ability... but rather, I have general issues with the game activity loops more broadly for Odyssey. As someone who seeks BGS/influence effects and, where possible, decent credits, neither of which are particularly forthcoming form Odyssey.

Where engineering materials in the space game was a natural fallout of those activities, engineering seems to be the only real outcome of doing Odyssey. If the outcomes I seek (BGS and credits) don't naturally fall out of Odyssey, why do I want equipment to perform suboptimally, more?

That said, spitballing I'd probably go:

• Expanded magazine
• Faster Handling
• Reload Speed
• Stability

It's not doing anything special to it... rather it's just improving what it's good at; mag size means you can keep fire on the enemy for longer, faster handling gets you rounds on target quicker, reload speed is self explanatory, and stability just for better overall maintenance of fire application on the enemy.

Reasons against the others:

• Audio Masking/Noise Suppression; only really useful on (near)instant-kill weapons, which this isn't.
• Greater Range; You shouldn't be using this beyond mid-range anyway.
• Headshot damage; you're not getting headshots with this.
• Hipfire Accuracy; I mean, you could replace stability with this... but are you ever really going to fire a rifle from the hip? Pistols sure, but not rifles.
• Scope; Because aiming relies on tracking your shots, looking through a scope just makes that harder... and again, you're not operating at ranges that really need it.
• Stowed reload; could replace reload speed... mostly a personal preference thing.

I really see it as being a support weapon, not a kill weapon. When roaming alone, that's obviously not great... though in a non-dominator suit, I stick with it because I don't want to get caught out with a kinetic-or-energy-only rifle when my Tormentor runs out of ammo.

But in a CZ, where you can fight with allies... because AI is so responsive to taking fire (running away, taking cover, sometimes to unreasonable lengths), being able to spray a lot of targets and get them running gives the allied squad valuable time to get fire on the enemies (and that's really important in high CZs, where their weapons pack a punch). You simply don't have the ammo in the other rifles apply that sort of suppression for very long, but the Oppressor is great at that... indeed, it "Oppresses", keeping the enemy under hardship, allowing your allies to strike the kills.

Since I have a G3 Oppressor that I actually upgraded from G2 (came with Audio Masking, at the time I didn't have access to the relevant engineer so didn't want to chuck it) and since applied the Stability (not Hip Fire Accuracy) mod. The latter makes a big difference as the gun doesn't 'wander' as much and it feels much more stable (as you'd expect).

Audio Masking was quite fun to use in massacre missions where I'd be able to pick up individual targets one by one without alerting others (though it's true once they shoot back their 'noise' will likely attract others so kind of agree with what you're saying on that point).

Against lower level NPCs it's actually quite enjoyable, but I've used it in a High CZ and it's desperately bad. You'll be keeping an eye on your watch while waiting for targets to go down, in the meantime they'll rush you and you'll end up back in the dropship as you can't drop enough targets quickly enough to break through the rush. For CZs I'm using both G4'd and fully modded Aphelion and AR-50 rifles, they do a fair bit of damage, the biggest problem is as you say having to constantly switch between them (although the Aphelion becomes quite decent at going through flesh, albeit not as good as the AR-50 of course). I added stowed reloading to the AR-50 which makes this all a bit less tedious.

I don't know yet whether to upgrade the Oppressor further - I like the gun in terms of how it looks, feels and sounds, but it's dreadful against the worse bullet sponges in the game and quite frustrating in the end simply due to the lack of oomph. From a playing perspective I actually enjoy it the most out of all the plasma weapons.

 

[Jmanis]

Against lower level NPCs it's actually quite enjoyable, but I've used it in a High CZ and it's desperately bad. You'll be keeping an eye on your watch while waiting for targets to go down, in the meantime they'll rush you and you'll end up back in the dropship as you can't drop enough targets quickly enough to break through the rush.

See, I pack it for high CZs regularly... but again I don't usually use it to kill, I use it to get them running behind cover and keep fire on them. Keeping them pinned lets CZ allies move to where they need to go (including control points) and then hit the finishing blows from more advantageous positions.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

See, I pack it for high CZs regularly... but again I don't usually use it to kill, I use it to get them running behind cover and keep fire on them. Keeping them pinned lets CZ allies move to where they need to go (including control points) and then hit the finishing blows from more advantageous positions.

Yeah I think I'm applying a different playstyle in those - running and gunning taking bigger risks and mingling more closely with the enemy side in order to rack up higher bounty payouts. The Oppressor really isn't good for this as I'm relying on decent damage output while I'm getting fired at with rockets and purple balls that can 1-2 hit kill me.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Yeah I think I'm applying a different playstyle in those - running and gunning taking bigger risks and mingling more closely with the enemy side in order to rack up higher bounty payouts. The Oppressor really isn't good for this as I'm relying on decent damage output while I'm getting fired at with rockets and purple balls that can 1-2 hit kill me.

That's how I roll as well. In close and personal and Intimidator at point blank. That also disarms heavy hitters like the Enforcers. If you come in close, they stow their launcher and grab the pistol. And against overwhelming odds I'm packing a L-6 myself.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

That's how I roll as well. In close and personal and Intimidator at point blank. That also disarms heavy hitters like the Enforcers. If you come in close, they stow their launcher and grab the pistol. And against overwhelming odds I'm packing a L-6 myself.

I don't like the Intimidator that much due to the small clip size (fair for a shottie though).

"Please hold, I need to reload and will get back to you shortly"

Have a G3 version and might put a scope on it, as silly as that notion is apparently it impacts spread.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I don't like the Intimidator that much due to the small clip size (fair for a shottie though).

"Please hold, I need to reload and will get back to you shortly"

Have a G3 version and might put a scope on it, as silly as that notion is apparently it impacts spread.

Mine is G5, that's a oneshot kill through shields against all but the toughest enemies.