What makes a good FPS - Your Top 3?

I do see the potential of space legs.
You mistake my disinterest in an Elite FPS as a disinterest in space legs. I was a very vocal proponent of space legs in the next DLC back before we knew what Odyssey was going to be. I just wanted something more akin to Subnautica than PvE Team Fortress with bad weapon swapping bullet-sponge mechanics.

If Frontier releases a new DLC someday that basically gives me Subnautica in space (not so much the survival aspect, but the exploration, ship maintenance, and ship interior customizations), I'll be first in line for that version of space legs.
 
You mistake my disinterest in an Elite FPS as a disinterest in space legs. I was a very vocal proponent of space legs in the next DLC back before we knew what Odyssey was going to be. I just wanted something more akin to Subnautica than PvE Team Fortress with bad weapon swapping bullet-sponge mechanics.

If Frontier releases a new DLC someday that basically gives me Subnautica in space (not so much the survival aspect, but the exploration, ship maintenance, and ship interior customizations), I'll be first in line for that version of space legs.

I don't see as much a difference as you do. It was clear that space legs includes a shooter. No matter if it was to attack a base, of if it was to fend off dangerous space-beasts as explorer. (Still waiting for that one. )

On the gun-swap mechanic and so on: i also dislike that part. See above. Just like i find the AI to be lacking, which actually is a much bigger problem in my eyes.

Yet for me it was always clear that space legs would turn into some kind of shooter. Based on the rest of the game, this was completely inevitable. If your whole statement is that you dislike the "Aaaand noooow, Quaaaaaake Aaaaaareeeenaaaaaa!" ( called combat zones") then i get it. If it's generally on the combat, then i don't. It was too obvious that we would get some FPS combat and how it would turn out. (A first person mode without any conflict and danger does not fit into this games world design. At all. )

Anyway, we have this now, we can just hope (no matter how little hope there is left) that somebody at some time sits down, rearranges the pieces and turns this into a more enjoyable experience.
 
You mistake my disinterest in an Elite FPS as a disinterest in space legs. I was a very vocal proponent of space legs in the next DLC back before we knew what Odyssey was going to be. I just wanted something more akin to Subnautica than PvE Team Fortress with bad weapon swapping bullet-sponge mechanics.

If Frontier releases a new DLC someday that basically gives me Subnautica in space (not so much the survival aspect, but the exploration, ship maintenance, and ship interior customizations), I'll be first in line for that version of space legs.
Isn't NMS basically Subnautica in Space? Both crafting games. They're also two games to think about when we worry about procedural generation vs hand-crafting.
 
For me personally the biggest thing that would improve Odyssey FPS would be to encourage us to interact with other players.

Tha alpha was in a single system and forced us to come across random players sneaking around bases or fighting in combat zones. This was a unique experience as you'd see their ship landed outside some outpost or see them being attacked by NPCs as you flew in.

Since then I've rarely seen anyone in open on foot and it's a missed opportunity. So if you're going to have multiplayer FPS encourage multiplayer.
It will be interesting to see how the first onfoot CG goes. I'm sure they're planned.
 
Seriously play the game.
No.

If your whole statement is that you dislike the "Aaaand noooow, Quaaaaaake Aaaaaareeeenaaaaaa!" ( called combat zones") then i get it. If it's generally on the combat, then i don't.
If turning ED into a first-person shooter is "inevitable", then I'd rather they had more closely mimicked Mass Effect than Team Fortress, especially considering that ED is a PvE game 99% of the time. This of course is my personal preference, but I thought that was what the OP wanted to know. Come to find out he just wants to convince everyone like Odyssey because he does.

It was too obvious that we would get some FPS combat and how it would turn out.
Yeah.... I can see this, someday. I just think they put the cart before the horse, that's all. Again, that's my personal opinion based on my desire to play Elite primarily as a space ship focused game. I already own more than enough first person shooters (including the aforementioned Mass Effect trilogy), so I really don't need yet another one. Also, when I bought my VR rig, this scratched some of my space legs itches. I can walk around my bridge, I can get out of my SRV and walk under my ship or up to a brain tree, I can even pseudo-walk around installations and very low textured stations and outposts, all in Horizons. And unlike Odyssey, I am literally walking around these places. That doesn't mean that I don't want more out of space legs, as I'll describe below.

(A first person mode without any conflict and danger does not fit into this games world design. At all. )
X4 Foundations pulls it off pretty well. Not perfectly, but I'm happy enough with their version of space legs. What X4 lacks in first person combat, it makes up for in many other "space ship game" features.

Isn't NMS basically Subnautica in Space? Both crafting games. They're also two games to think about when we worry about procedural generation vs hand-crafting.
From high orbit they look very similar, but when it comes to actual gameplay, they differ in some significant ways. What makes Subnautica so unique, and why I offer it as a template for a future DLC for Elite, is that it really makes me feel "close" to my submarine. It has a fully modeled interior, which I can customize and "decorate" (though a lot of those "decorations" have functional value), it is upgradeable, repairable, configurable, etc. NMS has nothing like this. When people ask, "Why do you want ship interiors in Elite?" I point them to Subnautica, and also Space Engineers. Legs in Subnautica and SE make me feel like an actual ship captain - a proper Hans Solo or Malcolm Reynolds. When it comes to legs, No Man's Sky is closer to Elite Odyssey than it is Subnautica or SE, though at least NMS gives you more to do with your legs than pew pew.
 
Seriously play the game. Three shot kills is not a bullet sponge. Heck with the explosive rounds it’s a single shot most times.

As for weapons swap Potato Patato it’s seamless and easy and adds a nice mechanic to the game.
Sniping with plasma rifle (G2 I think?) is one shot when they're shieldless, one extra shot if they have shields, and one or two more if they're higher level. FPS isn't my main thing but I've enjoyed the added onfoot aspect to the overall game. Horizons would feel as limiting to me now as running normal Elite instead of Horizons when they were still separate.

My favourite FPS type games:

Original DOOM
Hexen
Original Unreal Tournament, I guess that's the '99 version? The low gravity option was a blast, which you can get with Odyssey for real, pretty cool, though I hope to see NPCs using the air in combat at some point too. UT is probably my favorite FPS of all time.
Timesplitters 2
Metroid Prime
Titanfall 2 - I'm not particularly good at this one much, I don't have the time these days to devote to something like this but the movement is smooth and flows well. I would recommend all to check it out.
Team Fortress 2

For the first iteration of onfoot mechanics, I think Odyssey is a good way there. A lot of issues (performance aside - which does need more work) are balancing, and adding a few extra mechanics, would like body dragging and a little more interactivity with the surroundings, stuff like open/shut on/off sort of thing. I would like to see some onfoot version of CQC.
 
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If I showed you a clip where I'm melting Low Intensity NPCs with G5 gear, would that change your opinion about the bullet sponginess?
Nope. Now if you show me a clip where you're doing the same thing in with G3 gear that can be bought pre-engineered, with no silly gun-swapping, then I'll change my mind about bullet sponginess.

That's still not enough for me to buy Odyssey, but it's a step closer.
 
Nope. Now if you show me a clip where you're doing the same thing in with G3 gear that can be bought pre-engineered, with no silly gun-swapping, then I'll change my mind about bullet sponginess.

That's still not enough for me to buy Odyssey, but it's a step closer.
Alright, then I'll just show you a clip where I melt Low Intensity NPCs with G5 gear and tell you it's pre-engineered G3 gear in a High Intensity zone. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway as you don't own the expansion and have no way of disproving it.
 
Alright, then I'll just show you a clip where I melt Low Intensity NPCs with G5 gear and tell you it's pre-engineered G3 gear in a High Intensity zone. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway as you don't own the expansion and have no way of disproving it.
Do whatever tickles your nethers, it's no mind to me. I'm not here to prove or disprove anything. OP asked for opinions, and that's what I gave. 🤷‍♂️
 
Do whatever tickles your nethers, it's no mind to me. I'm not here to prove or disprove anything. OP asked for opinions, and that's what I gave. 🤷‍♂️
OP never asked for that, you started the discussion about Odyssey yourself with the comment below which wasn't even a reply to anyone. The only question he asked was what factors contribute to a decent FPS experience, he didn't ask why you thought Odyssey didn't tick any of those boxes.

Well, he did ask you to play Odyssey, possibly in a bid to sway your opinion or at the least give it some validity and you went "nope".

 
From high orbit they look very similar, but when it comes to actual gameplay, they differ in some significant ways. What makes Subnautica so unique, and why I offer it as a template for a future DLC for Elite, is that it really makes me feel "close" to my submarine. It has a fully modeled interior, which I can customize and "decorate" (though a lot of those "decorations" have functional value), it is upgradeable, repairable, configurable, etc. NMS has nothing like this. When people ask, "Why do you want ship interiors in Elite?" I point them to Subnautica, and also Space Engineers. Legs in Subnautica and SE make me feel like an actual ship captain - a proper Hans Solo or Malcolm Reynolds. When it comes to legs, No Man's Sky is closer to Elite Odyssey than it is Subnautica or SE, though at least NMS gives you more to do with your legs than pew pew.
Ah, I see. The ship customisation aspect. Yeah. I was a bit surprised they didn't go for more of a "builder" thing earlier on, as it's actually an area Frontier are very experienced at. I wonder if they're reluctant because in order to make the modules meaningful you'd maybe have to redesign how the normal space combat gameplay works. Or it's just another wobbly system built on top of a system built on top of another system...
 
The on-foot FPS aspect is actually one of my biggest gripes with Odyssey.
If you're going to put on-foot aspects into your spaceship game, at least put some quality into them.
Odyssey seems weak in the departments of;
  • General gunplay - the cliche viewpoint of gun up to your eye as soon as you draw it and run around like an action figure stuck in that position.
  • Enemy AI - Functional at best. Reminds me of enemies in Front Mission Evolved.
    On-foot CZs are a good example of it. They will mindlessly move from point A to point B and you can basically just walk past them and they won't care until you shoot. But once you shoot at them, they ignore all other enemies, even if you're 100m out they will just zone in on you. No real use of cover, just that silly little dodgeball duck and slide thing. No strategic maneuvering or flanking.
  • Weapons, weapon selection and variety - You're telling me, the year 3308, humans live in thousands of star systems.....and there are only 3 gun manufacturers that make.....11 guns.....?
  • Gun weightiness and "punch" - As far as the audio and gun heftiness and kickback and gunfire, they feel more like airsoft and lasertag guns than combat ready firearms.
  • Damage - In desperate need of some reworking. Ballistic weapons do barely any damage to shields? And energy weapons barely shave off slivers of 'armor'? Kinda silly guys....
    Us CMDRs are paper dolls, while every NPC you fight takes a full mag each.
    And treating on-foot combat like ship combat with the philosophy of;
    "shoot shields with lasers, then switch weapons, and shoot 'hull' with ballistics" is a lazy, horrendous, tedious, and immersion breaking mechanic.
    And on-foot small arms can take down the shields of my ship that is designed to take ridiculous caliber weaponry of other ships? Kinda silly.
  • Melee - What melee? A weak and useless punch or gunswing, while NPCs will just gun you down in half a second as you attempt to swing at them.
    No melee weapons, no reason to even attempt engaging in a melee fight.
  • Character movement - generic, cliche and not very smooth or dynamic. Like a PS2 or Xbox shooter game quality.
    i.e. - character moves on a rigid 8-point turn directional and snaps to each animation, there's literally one jump animation, can't even go prone, you can slow walk but you can't slowly crouch walk, no leaning.
  • Shadows and lighting - I know it's more than just the FPS segment, but I can't help but notice when I'm on foot that shadows are smudgy and lighting seems to have this delayed auto-exposure adjustment that makes everything ridiculously dark.
    But also: Your shadow is autonomous and it's disturbing. Find a sunny spot with good lighting and look at your shadow, then draw your weapon; your character will bring up the weapon and 1 second later your shadow will do the same. Same thing happens with reloading or holstering your weapon or movement. Your shadow is this creepy entity that mimics your movement in some weird delayed action. It's silly and I am amazed that FDev just said "screw it, green light it."
  • The POV - You're basically playing from the perspective of a go-pro on the chest of your character. Pretty awkward once you realize the perspective they ended up with.
  • General "Halo-esque" feel - The overall feel of Odyssey gives off a sort of early 2000s, Halo quality run-and-gun, 360-no-scope vibe.

There are a plethora of first-person shooters to build a solid "boots on the ground" experience off of:
The Metro Series - Not the most amazing in terms of shooters, but the feel of gunplay and the HUD are excellent examples of how to give players information about their weapons and the world around them without breaking the immersion of the gameworld with gaudy and interruptive full-screen menus.
The Mirror's Edge games - Very enjoyable parkour and character movement in a first-person view, with some well done melee that works in a first-person view.
Arma 3 - It's janky and buggy, but the first-person view works and puts the player "behind the eyes" of your character. Lots of detailed and intricate milsim mechanics.
Leaning, reposition your stance from a raised standing position to a low crouch or even sitting with your gun up or going prone, different angles of gun position, ballistic physics, weapon attachments and accessories. (Just don't expect the vehicles to behave right. "Getting Arma'ed" happens a lot and if you touch two vehicles together, you never know what might happen. Bohemia is trash at vehicle physics.)
Escape from Tarkov - Good gun sound and impact. Even reloading feels enjoyable.
Squad - Another game with decent character movement and very nice audio and feel of gunplay. (walking and sprinting feel like you're moving through jello though. Kinda silly)
Killzone Series - Guns felt destructive and when you hit an enemy you knew you were destroying them in a satisfying hail of lead. Melee in KZ2 and KZ3 felt nice, and offered good takedowns and stealth. And enemies were smart. If you played on hard mode, be prepared for enemies to flank you and find cover while moving up on you.
Star Citizen - Again an FPS POV that works and feels accurate and properly proportionate, and as janky as SC is, the feel of gunplay is there and is believable.

Just some examples of things I've noticed and what could have been drawn from if FDev really wanted to actually put effort into it and drew from inspiration to give that real "Armstrong moment" that never happened.
 
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FPS is a very broad spectrum because its one element of a much larger series of game genres.

At the moment I am enjoying Hell Let Loose, its like what Battlefield should have been like instead of getting progressively worse since BF1942 (with some decent / okayish ones after).

Hell Let Loose is an ultra realistic online WW2 era shooter than does not define matches by kills, but how you and your team work together to complete your tasks/roles and contribute to the overall victory. It's notoriously difficult and the community can be a bit ancy if your not big into using mics and talking to people, but i highly highly recommend it.
Love this game. Taking a break from ED (not the forums obviously) and am only playing this right now, almost nightly. Look for Whalefish if you ever play west coast US servers.
 
Seriously play the game. Three shot kills is not a bullet sponge. Heck with the explosive rounds it’s a single shot most times.

As for weapons swap Potato Patato it’s seamless and easy and adds a nice mechanic to the game.
I have to disagree, the game is very spongy. Squidgy even. There are exceptions with a few weapons at high level, but the overall gameplay when compared to most modern shooters (and most oldies too) is silly how little emphasis there is on tactics and accuracy. Works for some, I just really really don't like the personal shields and the thermal/kinetic thing. However it's probably the only viable way to field enemies in a challenging way with the current AI.

I still love having feet though, but the gunplay really falls way off the mark for me.
 
Weapons, weapon selection and variety - You're telling me, the year 3308, humans live in thousands of star systems.....and there are only 3 gun manufacturers that make.....11 guns.....?
Gameplay wise there are games with less guns that don't feel like they have a lack of guns because the guns are more interesting, have alternate fire modes, non-combat uses, modifications that significantly change how they play or are situationally useful forcing the player to switch sometimes instead of switching between the same 2-3 guns in a loadout all the time.

For odyssey more guns over making existing guns more interesting actually isn't better right now because how the engineering is done.
 
It’s been an interesting discussion and I think the top ideas that make a good FPS seem to be

1) Good gun action/noise/effect, as an example Doom shotgun. A weapon that feels like it’s doing something good.

2) Speed, I’ve taken this to me player movement and while pitch and rotate are adjustable in EDO the straffe is not and does not feel quite right.

3) Storyline or multiplayer, this is a bit difficult to quantify as some FPS have a start and finish and others have arena style conflict areas. Oddy story is imho weak, but the conflict zones are quite good with a range of buildings, high low hiding points and indoors/outdoors areas.

4) AI - People who play single player instances want this to be challenging. All I can say is I see random behaviour such as “walk by” or “stop and shoot”. Flanking and mission objectives all seem to be a part of the High CZs AI programming and mostly seems to work well to that effect.

5) Strategy and tactics. Oddy CZs have a statistic for resupply and respawn. The more Control Zonez you win the lower your opponents stat goes and the less NPCs are made available to that team. If you see your counter is lower than the other team then as a human player you should aim to secure as many control points as possible. As soon as you activate a control zone (1%) your teams NPCs will come and help you defend and win it. At this point (say 25% won) you should move, leave the final % to your teams NPCs and go get another control point active. Once you see you number higher than the opposition you can focus on kills. Of course in a human conflict this all becomes even more important, being killed has no effect unless your stay is at zero in which case you won’t respawn. So that’s it for Oddy, I understand there are more interest FPS tactics than this but it does at least offer something to those that like it.

To further my discovery a friend has recommend Call of Duty through Battle.net. It’s an arena style free to play version that has elements of team play. Looking forward to seeing the gameplay differences and being able to evaluate one against the other.
 
If turning ED into a first-person shooter is "inevitable", then I'd rather they had more closely mimicked Mass Effect than Team Fortress, especially considering that ED is a PvE game 99% of the time. This of course is my personal preference, but I thought that was what the OP wanted to know. Come to find out he just wants to convince everyone like Odyssey because he does.

Call me crazy, but if i could pick the FPS performance to mimic, it would still be Half-Life. The first one. :D
But you also compare two very different things: a PvE FPS and a PvP FPS... and i have to admit, i'd yet have to see one which does both parts really well. (Acceptable good: yes. Really well: no. )

And yes, you are quite right there: i also think that the PvE aspect of FPS-Odyssey should be much stronger. They skimped on that one. Badly. To compensate for that, they also gave us a kind of weak pseudo-arena thingie in the ground CZs. And don't get me wrong, within the world of ED, such ground combat areas make absolute sense. But that we volunteer to to grunt mercenary work, using a firearm and leaving our multi million credit spaceships behind does not. At all.

Or maybe i am wrong and there are plenty of historical cases, where the admiral of a battle group decided to not use use the naval guns, not deploy the planes of his aircraft carrier, but rather pick up his revolver and charge at the enemy... if such things happen, somebody of FD please enlighten me? :D ;)

Yeah.... I can see this, someday. I just think they put the cart before the horse, that's all. Again, that's my personal opinion based on my desire to play Elite primarily as a space ship focused game. I already own more than enough first person shooters (including the aforementioned Mass Effect trilogy), so I really don't need yet another one. Also, when I bought my VR rig, this scratched some of my space legs itches. I can walk around my bridge, I can get out of my SRV and walk under my ship or up to a brain tree, I can even pseudo-walk around installations and very low textured stations and outposts, all in Horizons. And unlike Odyssey, I am literally walking around these places. That doesn't mean that I don't want more out of space legs, as I'll describe below.

I get it. As said, i also think they missed the mark at many places. Us volunteering to be deployed as "cheaper in the dozen" frontline grunt makes no sense. Getting into trouble and needing to defend yourself, no matter how valuable your spaceship is, does make sense. As even the best pilot will sometimes leave it, and if it's just to meet somebody at the local bar.

But yea... "make combat good" is merely one of many puzzle pieces. But from the way the OP during the thread tries to wrap things up again and again, it seems like "make combat a tiny bit better" is all he wants to be happy. While we expected a lot more of Odyssey and find it lacking in many aspects. Which unfortunately means that merely making combat a bit better by giving weapons louder sounds won't really cut it for us.
 
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