Make the engineering grind remotely palatable

[DemiserofD]

I think the engineering is just fine. It's not like you need to upgrade every part for a single ship, only the best you can afford. Second, you won't engineer more than a handful of parts out of the entire ship anyways. All your hard points, some of your optionals, 2/3rds of your internals and that's it. You don't need to engineer the SRV AND most people don't own odyssey so you can't even complain about those wasted assets (as you can upgrade them but there's literally nothing to do with the suits or guns once you've upgraded them outside of conflict zones).

Imo, we need more parts to diversify ourselves from each other. Everyone only builds the meta build anyways so it's not like anything else matters, right? I know I don't personally pay attention to anything that's not something I personally plan on invested parts into.

Are you constantly synthesizing stuff? otherwise I don't see how you're going through so many parts, you got the big 3, your FDL/Mamba, your Python.....Or are you thinking you have to actually engineer all 38 ships? lol why on earth for?

The problem with this Viewpoint is that it is often faster to fully engineer and grade five things, than to do it partially.

This is because ships have many modules, and while organically collecting the materials to engineer one of them doesn't take very long, by the time you collect the materials to even partially engineer some or all of them, it would have taken less time to go find a grinding site and grind them all to G5.

The reason for this problem is because the physical act of collecting the materials takes such a long time. This makes it a mathematically poor choice to collect anything but G5 and potentially G4 materials. By doing so, you are quite literally losing more than you gain. In order to collect enough grade 1 materials to equal a grade 5, you will spend literally hours, just in the physical act of collection.

 

[Dox Paradox]

The problem with this Viewpoint is that it is often faster to fully engineer and grade five things, than to do it partially.

This is because ships have many modules, and while organically collecting the materials to engineer one of them doesn't take very long, by the time you collect the materials to even partially engineer some or all of them, it would have taken less time to go find a grinding site and grind them all to G5.

The reason for this problem is because the physical act of collecting the materials takes such a long time. This makes it a mathematically poor choice to collect anything but G5 and potentially G4 materials. By doing so, you are quite literally losing more than you gain. In order to collect enough grade 1 materials to equal a grade 5, you will spend literally hours, just in the physical act of collection.

If you "play the game", you just collect material as you encounter them, and there's no problem at all.
The problem only exist if you try to rush the game. There's no speed running in Elite, it's a different kind of game, entirely.

 

[DemiserofD]

If you "play the game", you just collect material as you encounter them, and there's no problem at all.
The problem only exist if you try to rush the game. There's no speed running in Elite, it's a different kind of game, entirely.

Not if you're playing efficiently. It's objectively a bad choice.

 

[Greasetrap42]

The problem with this Viewpoint is that it is often faster to fully engineer and grade five things, than to do it partially.

This is because ships have many modules, and while organically collecting the materials to engineer one of them doesn't take very long, by the time you collect the materials to even partially engineer some or all of them, it would have taken less time to go find a grinding site and grind them all to G5.

The reason for this problem is because the physical act of collecting the materials takes such a long time. This makes it a mathematically poor choice to collect anything but G5 and potentially G4 materials. By doing so, you are quite literally losing more than you gain. In order to collect enough grade 1 materials to equal a grade 5, you will spend literally hours, just in the physical act of collection.

This is incorrect and makes no sense.

Yes it is quicker to grind-farm single items. And if you want to drop all other activities to get a fully engineered ship placing your entire attention to acquiring mats would be the fastest way. But it is not the efficient way.

Increasing efficiency means reducing time and effort put directly into an activity. If a player can engineer a ship with very low effort then the efficiency is high.

No method is more efficient than to take materials thrown in front of a player while doing other activities or working on multiple goals simultaneously. Edit: and taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves.

 

[Dox Paradox]

Not if you're playing efficiently. It's objectively a bad choice.

Every single time a player complain about the game, it is because she tries to play it efficiently.
Hence the grind.
"I won't do CG/scenarii/exploration/secret missions/exobiology/powerplay/rescue/YouNameIt/.., I can make more credit per hour doing X".
There's nothing to reach, except maybe Raxxla, you don't even need anything beyond a Cobra MK III to enjoy the whole game.

 

[DemiserofD]

Everyone plays efficiently. It's instinct. You don't fly out to a cz, kill one enemy, and leave; you kill many enemies, because it's efficient. You don't mine in a Vulture, you mine in a python, because it's efficient.

If you're waiting for players to stop playing efficiently, you'll be waiting forever. You can ignore this, or you can learn from it.

 

[Greasetrap42]

Everyone plays efficiently. It's instinct. You don't fly out to a cz, kill one enemy, and leave; you kill many enemies, because it's efficient. You don't mine in a Vulture, you mine in a python, because it's efficient.

If you're waiting for players to stop playing efficiently, you'll be waiting forever. You can ignore this, or you can learn from it.

Again, incorrect. You do not know what 'efficiency' means.

 

[DemiserofD]

Again, incorrect. You do not know what 'efficiency' means.

Interesting. Go on?

 

[Brrokk]

Again, incorrect. You do not know what 'efficiency' means.

Yes, I'd take it to mean results divided by effort; that's the usual meaning of efficiency in any context. Therefore, if I make no effort at all to collect materials and just collect them as they turn up in play, that's maximum efficiency.

 

[Dox Paradox]

Everyone plays efficiently. It's instinct. You don't fly out to a cz, kill one enemy, and leave; you kill many enemies, because it's efficient. You don't mine in a Vulture, you mine in a python, because it's efficient.

If you're waiting for players to stop playing efficiently, you'll be waiting forever. You can ignore this, or you can learn from it.

Play the way you want, I don't wait for anybody.
I try to alleviate your suffering and show you another way.
Happy grinding then!

 

[Dox Paradox]

make no effort

Let's be wild. We can ENJOY collecting all materials (along other things), that's part of the exploration loop.

 

[DemiserofD]

Telling someone they're enjoying the game wrong isn't very helpful. Everyone has a right to play in their own way.

The only question is if fdev want those players to stay, or if they want them to quit, leave a bad review, and cost them money in the long term. Personally, I want as many players to enjoy the game as possible, especially if it comes at no cost to me.

 

[El General]

And you know what? The relogger grinders still care about playing the game. They just prefer the mind killing approach instead of the one that just makes you quit playing. I didn't do either and it wasn't fun playing either - thanks bulletsponge. FD is quite good at driving players away and engineering was their masterpiece in player unretention.

agreed

 

[Greasetrap42]

Telling someone they're enjoying the game wrong isn't very helpful. Everyone has a right to play in their own way.

Title of Thread:

Make the engineering grind remotely palatable​

We are discussing players that are not enjoying the way they play and complaining about it.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

agreed

Wish they would actually go away if the game is so bad.

 

[Dox Paradox]

Telling someone they're enjoying the game wrong isn't very helpful. Everyone has a right to play in their own way.

The only question is if fdev want those players to stay, or if they want them to quit, leave a bad review, and cost them money in the long term. Personally, I want as many players to enjoy the game as possible, especially if it comes at no cost to me.

How would you like engineering to be?
Frankly I don't mind if FD changes it.

 

[DemiserofD]

We are discussing players that are not enjoying the way they play and complaining about it.

The problem is, these players currently have no way to enjoy the game. They have two conflicting factors; their desire for efficiency, and their desire for enjoyable gameplay. These players cannot enjoy a game where they are not efficiently moving towards their goal. They also cannot enjoy a game that is boring. They are forced to choose between good gameplay and inefficient collection, and bad gameplay with efficient collection.

Other players just ask them why they don't just play inefficiently, failing to understand that playing inefficiently is inherently unfun to them.

What you don't realize, is that it is not the player's responsibility to enjoy something they don't like, it is the games responsibility to cater to their preferences, so long as that catering does not come at the cost of anyone else's enjoyment.

Basically, these players are asking why the most enjoyable gameplay can't also be the most efficient. Why not just give everyone the best of both worlds? The players that currently enjoy it will still enjoy it. The players that don't enjoy it will now enjoy it. Everyone wins. So why not make the change?

 

[Dox Paradox]

Sounds like you need a space combat game, or a game more focused on space-ships.
Elite isn't, and never was since 1984.
Maybe Star War or something?
Why play a game you don't like?

 

[Brrokk]

The problem is, these players currently have no way to enjoy the game. They have two conflicting factors; their desire for efficiency, and their desire for enjoyable gameplay. These players cannot enjoy a game where they are not efficiently moving towards their goal. They also cannot enjoy a game that is boring. They are forced to choose between good gameplay and inefficient collection, and bad gameplay with efficient collection.

Other players just ask them why they don't just play inefficiently, failing to understand that playing inefficiently is inherently unfun to them.

What you feel to realize, is that it is not the player's responsibility to enjoy something they don't like, it is the games responsibility to cater to their preferences, so long as that catering does not come at the cost of anyone else's enjoyment.

Basically, these players are asking why the most enjoyable gameplay can't also be the most efficient. Why not just give everyone the best of both worlds? The players that currently enjoy it will still enjoy it. The players that don't enjoy it will now enjoy it. Everyone wins. So why not make the change?

The most enjoyable gameplay is to collect materials as they turn up in the course of other fun activities. As I pointed out above this is also, by any conventional definition of efficiency, the most efficient.

We're actually faced with people playing in a boring and inefficient way and then complaining the game is boring. I don't think it's reasonable to blame the game for this.

 

[DemiserofD]

The most enjoyable gameplay is to collect materials as they turn up in the course of other fun activities. As I pointed out above this is also, by any conventional definition of efficiency, the most efficient.

We're actually faced with people playing in a boring and inefficient way and then complaining the game is boring. I don't think it's reasonable to blame the game for this.

That's just it though, it's not actually efficient. Because collecting materials as they come takes so long, even stopping to pick up the materials after a fight is a waste of time. You will be far more efficient to leave them behind, kill more enemies as quickly as possible, and then use the accumulated saved time to go grind material sites, instead.

That's why making that process faster is such a big deal for me. If people could snatch those materials more quickly, then it would suddenly become more efficient to do so, meaning players can multitask, and don't feel forced to grind.