The Star Citizen Thread V10

[VR Golgot]

I reckon our Chrissie boy is hoping Microsoft won't remember him spending their Freelancer funding making a crap movie
But be honest here...can anyone see Microsoft or Sony allowing the Chris Roberts name, all the controversy, all the notoriety of Star Citizen, it's now public mismanagement and Hollywood accounting sullying their brands and reputations by opening the doors to the snake-oil salesman and his pet project?

...Me neither.

Ach, it's a numbers game right. If they think there's a product there, and money to be made, then yeah.

(Ok, so maybe not then )

Ci¬G need the capital...I'd say they were desperately reliant on it. All they have without any possible (but doubtful) next gen console ports is a big and deepening hole of technical debt to us backers. The PC market might optimistically produce a few more thousand sales of Sqn42 at best. If they are also planning on releasing the PU to the console market (also unlikely due to MS/Sony certification and gated Xbox live/PSN network requirements)...it would have to be a lot more than what's on offer or what they can turn out by 2021...and that's almost as wishful as hoping the Dragon Lady could have survived Game of Thrones to make lots of little Jon Snows.

Ci¬G are clutching at straws that aren't even there.

Yeah the SC launch footing seems an impossible ask in that timeframe. Even if the core technical issues could be resolved the appeal would surely be stunted by the curtailed scope and a 'rolling release' roadmap for later additions. I'd certainly expect the PC market to be cynical at any rate. (And yeah the console port does seem like dreamland at this point).

The SQ42 I can see more. If the Agent's current info is in the right ballpark then they're aiming for a free Chapter 1, and a couple of Chapters for sale. It's do-able you'd think. If not exactly something you'd expect to make huge waves, big names or no. A full cinematic space campaign? Maybe. The start of one? Hmm. (Plus now I fear Chris doing loads of re-writes )

 

[Sanya V. Juutilainen]

That's because it's a lot bigger...but comparing sizes wasn't my point. I have 5,500 hours in E-D on 2 platforms, I still play. Let's not get into a peeing contest about which has more of what or who likes whatever more. There's quite enough of that already

I wasn't really talking about the size of the universe, but about the player count here. Both games have chokepoints (relatively) full of players, but at least to me, Elite seems to have way more of such chokepoints.

 

[Iron Golem]

I'd be horrified if the CEO of a 500 person company is writing any code as well. He should be managing not coding. He should have no time at all to write code.

Still, its a question, where can CR do less damage, with his knowledge of coding that is probably decades out of date or his knowledge of management which is centuries out of date...

I dont know much about game / software / dream development. Is it scary that when they talked about Croberts coding it up they also talked about how hes trying to reinvent how everything attaches in the code. Almost a decade in and hes reinventing stuff like that personally?

 

[lysan]

As was said, it's very different in 6DoF, where it can get confusing very, very fast. Movies tend to make it way cooler for a reason, and in my opinion one of the better showcases of this is Luke in SWIV - trying to hit stuff for extended time to finally hit one target - and they didn't even have shields.



But Elite also has lots more of such places. Basically if you visit any power HQs, any CG target, Maia, current evacuation spot, Jaques, etc, etc, you are almost guaranteed to meet few players at every such spot.

Well, as we don't know how it would be in the future, probably we don't need humans to operate a turret, it need to be fun and challenge to be a turret gunner, and the fact is it's not that exciting in space games.

In a WW2 simulator you can simulate the experience, and because of how it actually was, this kind of gameplay is actually also fun.

 

[Sanya V. Juutilainen]

"Well, as we don't know how it would be in the future, probably we don't need humans to operate a turret, it need to be fun and challenge to be a turret gunner, and the fact is it's not that exciting in space games."

Well, exactly. Tbh we probably won't even operate the ships, but then there'd be no stuff to play, so there's some limitations (like no 100% Newtonian model) ww

But balancing the turrets that can cover almost half the sphere, while the gunner has no permanent point they can relate to (compared to regular plane, where gravity and surface both guide you) is fairly tricky. My bet is FDev actually tried the single turret manning as well, in some alpha / betatesting, but the results were probably... well, similar to SC.

 

[n4p0l3on]

A hypothetical for the backers in the thread:

TheAgent's backroom gossip is looking good regarding subscription rewards ramping up. How would you feel if some of his other recent gossip ended up being true? IE:

• SQ42 launching on consoles
• Star Citizen being launched on consoles (tech willing)

Would any of that bother you? Would the pros outweigh the cons?

Recent Agent stuff here: [1],[2],[3]

checkmate FUDster!

 

[MTBFritz]

Well Star Citizen is a video game in the end. There have been a few attempts at game develpment favoring ultra realism and those games never had a big audience.

So its realism versus gameplay and how you balance it. Realistically speaking space combat speeds would be so large that only computers would have the reaction time to hit something in addition to calculating all the vectors on the fly. Humans do this today by "feel" which is nothing else then doing the same "react & calculate" based on experience and training. Regardless how much you want to believe that humans are better then machines due to "improvisation" and "thinking outside the box" there are hard limits biologically for humans to accept. Go faster and machines become superior. If you now combine possible speed in raction with a high capacity for calculations you suddenly make humans obsolete except for providing targets.

Of course this would be extremely boring to a game player so most games allow competetive hands-on control disregarding realism.

I just dont know how much the current system in Star Citizen is by design considering all these things or simply a linear development allowing nothing else. We know the simulation limits of Cryengine and that a lot of things are not simulated at all but hardcoded (space and atmosphere for example). If these are hard states instead of simulated results then we ll probably neber will have simulated blood streams and the included diseases and toxins affecting us or healing.

FPS combat in Star Citizen already demonstrates really bad hit parameters or feedback making shooting targets a thing of luck mostly. If that is the foundation that makes FPS combat in SC so bad then its the same base for space combat in ships. No wonder that human gunners have such a bad time hitting anything and AI controlled turrets outperform them. I guess there is no underlying simulation that would allow players to become equal...not when the solution for AI turrets is to "hit 75% of the time".

 

[Vasious]

I could see that part apply to the ARMA crowd and if you have good friends with good communications.

In dedicated ARMA groups you had your roles basically so you had your driver, gunner and loader and stuff which could mean looking through a vision slit for HOURS before anything really happened.

That said, when poopoo finally happened everything happened at once.

ARMA; that weird game where in 3 and a half hours my job was to load supply trucks with supplies and ammo as they arrived to supply the front and it was great!

Then again I have spent hours in MC in the second seat of a Vulture just running the KWS and counter measures, no weapons, just target IDing

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ahh - the heady days of way back (cuffs back a tear) https://www.pcgamer.com/chris-rober...l-never-be-dumbed-down-for-a-lesser-platform/

“Star Citizen IS a PC game,” Roberts writes . “It will NEVER be dumbed down for a lesser platform. We will NOT limit the input options or supported peripherals to the lowest common denominator. We will NOT pass on features and technology just because they will only run on some hardware configurations.”

Roberts continues to list the things that he loves about developing for PC, and why a console port—for either PS4 or Xbox One—is unlikely to ever happen. “As far as consoles go Star Citizen will never be on the PS3 or Xbox 360. As for the next gen consoles, PS4 and Xbox One, we have NO CURRENT PLANS, but my stance remains open and is consistent with the many interviews I've given… IF the platform holders (Sony & Microsoft) allow us to update the code and data without restrictions and odious time consuming QC procedures, IF they allow our community to openly interact with each other across platforms then I would CONSIDER supporting them.”

Problem is - it doesn't really matter what platform they develop for. There is still no game, and what there is runs like something stinky on even ridiculous PC builds that cost more than new cars. Remember when the more enthusiastic backers were blaming weak rigs and poor internet connections for the completely abysmal performance? Well, some people got together and built completely ridiculous rigs as a collaborative effort and plugged direct into an enterprise internet backbone just to show it made not one iota of difference. Even on enterprise kit it stunk. I know this, because I remember it, because I was one of them.

Just how poorly it'll perform on a console, even a next-gen one that isn't a netbook with a pretty ribbon and bow for show, remains to be seen - but it's going to be hilarious

 

[Viajero]

A hypothetical for the backers in the thread:

TheAgent's backroom gossip is looking good regarding subscription rewards ramping up. How would you feel if some of his other recent gossip ended up being true? IE:

• SQ42 launching on consoles
• Star Citizen being pushed towards a release state in a similar timeframe. (He doesn't state dates, that's my interpretation of this)
• Star Citizen being launched on consoles (tech willing)

Would any of that bother you? Would the pros outweigh the cons?

Recent Agent stuff here: [1],[2],[3]

Given the state of the alpha after 7/8 years I have a hard time seeing CIG capable of managing the work for the conversion and/or, more importantly, going through any of the customary quality checks required by Sony or MS.

 

[Mole HD]

Ahh - the heady days of way back (cuffs back a tear) https://www.pcgamer.com/chris-rober...l-never-be-dumbed-down-for-a-lesser-platform/



Problem is - it doesn't really matter what platform they develop for. There is still no game, and what there is runs like something stinky on even ridiculous PC builds that cost more than new cars. Remember when the more enthusiastic backers were blaming weak rigs and poor internet connections for the completely abysmal performance? Well, some people got together and built completely ridiculous rigs as a collaborative effort and plugged direct into an enterprise internet backbone just to show it made not one iota of difference. Even on enterprise kit it stunk. I know this, because I remember it, because I was one of them.

Just how poorly it'll perform on a console, even a next-gen one that isn't a netbook with a pretty ribbon and bow for show, remains to be seen - but it's going to be hilarious

I have a mental picture of the snake-oil salesman turning up at Microsoft in his chest wader high casual slacks and crew neck jumper and dictating terms to them on how they'll alter all their business plans before he'll 'consider' letting them share in a piece of PC gaming history...

They'd tell him to fu.. mind the door doesn't hit him in the ar.. Squadron 42 package on his way back to the bus stop...

 

[lysan]

Well Star Citizen is a video game in the end. There have been a few attempts at game develpment favoring ultra realism and those games never had a big audience.

So its realism versus gameplay and how you balance it. Realistically speaking space combat speeds would be so large that only computers would have the reaction time to hit something in addition to calculating all the vectors on the fly. Humans do this today by "feel" which is nothing else then doing the same "react & calculate" based on experience and training. Regardless how much you want to believe that humans are better then machines due to "improvisation" and "thinking outside the box" there are hard limits biologically for humans to accept. Go faster and machines become superior. If you now combine possible speed in raction with a high capacity for calculations you suddenly make humans obsolete except for providing targets.

Of course this would be extremely boring to a game player so most games allow competetive hands-on control disregarding realism.

I just dont know how much the current system in Star Citizen is by design considering all these things or simply a linear development allowing nothing else. We know the simulation limits of Cryengine and that a lot of things are not simulated at all but hardcoded (space and atmosphere for example). If these are hard states instead of simulated results then we ll probably neber will have simulated blood streams and the included diseases and toxins affecting us or healing.

FPS combat in Star Citizen already demonstrates really bad hit parameters or feedback making shooting targets a thing of luck mostly. If that is the foundation that makes FPS combat in SC so bad then its the same base for space combat in ships. No wonder that human gunners have such a bad time hitting anything and AI controlled turrets outperform them. I guess there is no underlying simulation that would allow players to become equal...not when the solution for AI turrets is to "hit 75% of the time".

In the end playing a game should be fun, Turret gameplay in ED or SC is not fun, the problem in ED is the very simplest mechanics and in SC is just because until now there is not a game per say.

Turrets should only be in big ships that can't roll on a dime, big freight ships or military dreadnaughts or remove the turret gameplay all together, and use small drones you launch and can use instead like controllable missiles. I don't see how a 3rd person view is even remotely fun.

 

[WotGTheAgent]

Someone a few days back was looking for a Chris Roberts' quote about future sales.

Chris Roberts posted:

I think people this early maybe represent five to ten percent of the total audience. Just based on the ratio of the people who liked Wing Commander... the number of backers in Germany is like 14 or 15 thousand. We sold 400,000 units of Wing Commander III in Germany alone, and that's assuming no market expansion from 1994 or 1995. I think there is. If you look at FTL, and FTL is difficult because it's a very small game, it did much more than 10x in the number of actual sales compared to the number of backers they had. They had like 10,000 backers and did two or three hundred thousand in sales.

My gut sense is that 5 to 10 percent of your audience is going to back you early, and I think that number is variable based on the quality. When you do something really good, it's a lower percentage; if you do something that isn't so good maybe it's 20 percent or 30 percent. I'm assuming if I deliver the game I think I'm going to deliver, if it holds up to the level of Wing Commander or Freelancer or Privateer, I think 10x would be a pretty conservative number. I think that would be right in there with what I did in the '90s. What crowdfunding has proven is that those people are still out there.

Interview link here:
https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...w-incredible-community-transforms-development

This is important because of how they forecast sales using current pre-orders. I posted about it a long time back.

TheAgent posted:

pre-order sales are used to help determine post-launch sales, so the company can start forecasting a bunch of stuff money wise

unless you started taking pre-orders for 5 years, which means the vast majority of customers who want in already have bought in

my bet is that RSI is using these huge pre-order figures to forecast very, very high post-launch sales which is stupid and bad and wrong for a lot of reasons

 

[Asp Explorer]

What crowdfunding has proven is that those people are still out there.

Yes Genuine Roberts, we are still out there, and we are still waiting for both games you owe us

Oh, and my special green box and space-ship-shaped USB drive

 

[Iron Golem]

Yes Genuine Roberts, we are still out there, and we are still waiting for both games you owe us

Oh, and my special green box and space-ship-shaped USB drive

How big is the storage supposed to be on that thing?

 

[ZeeWolf]

X-Wing alliance had turrets I need to play that again. My memory is that it was better to let the robot use the turret as you didn't get a very good line of sight what with the ship turning in all directions.

In Star Wars when Luke Skywalker and Han use the turret, they fly along like a B-52 FF - (presumably because Chewbacca is asleep) and the tie fighters politely attack the top of the ship approaching from behind.

 

[Asp Explorer]

How big is the storage supposed to be on that thing?

Absolutely nobody knows!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we end up with the absolute cheapest USB 1.1 bulk rubbish that some manufacturer threw out as factory reject. I imagine it will contain a copy of the installer and the Vision, which in full 90's Autorun fanfare will laboriously install all 48.2Gb of itself, request credentials, and then immediately update and download yet another 48.2 Gb just for the lulz

It's more likely though, that we'll get nothing at all.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Given the state of the alpha after 7/8 years I have a hard time seeing CIG capable of managing the work for the conversion and/or, more importantly, going through any of the customary quality checks required by Sony or MS.

They could do a Fortnite and keep it in "early access" which has reduced quality standards.... although SC might not even pass those.

I suspect Sony and MS will sooner or later have to shut that down because i can imagine more and more devs abusing the early access label in order ship substandard products.

 

[metatheurgist]

How big is the storage supposed to be on that thing?

I think we're waiting on CR to create the amazing, never before seen storage tech that it will be made out of.

 

[Skizomeuh]

If only Jeff Bezos didn't put so many efforts on IRL space program and had listened to The Great Visionnaire, we would already have the techs to have Amazon servers able to handle tens of thousands of players, and nine times more NPCs and all the fidelities.