1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison

[Kyokushin]

FDL is king in combat. Everyone who seriously disagrees is just stupid.

Buahhahahaah


eeeh, i cant get it longer. Its cold, and i am laughing. I will get ill because of you

but now several people are saying the Python is equal?

Not equal. Python always was better.
For PvE a Python is >>>>>>>>> better than FDL
In PvP 1vs1 Python is also better when we get two pilots on similar skill. Python can outtank FDL, Python can masslock FDL, FDL can run, and python can jump whetever he want.
In PvP wing vs wing a FDL is a bit more flexible because of speed, and in pre Engineer wing vs wing encounter a base shield was a bit more important than SCB because of focus fire strategy. So python was a first target because he was slow and shield was easier to drop by fire of focused other ships. 6A scb was unable to raise it so fast... but now SCB can spin faster

Now you can improve 6A prismatic on Python add crafted boosters and finally it will be enough tanky and agile to hold a bit longer on focus fire. Its a ship also worth testing in wing pvp, however pvpers loves FDL because of its speed, shape and feeling (just a funnier to fly than Python)

 

[goemon]

What's the point of getting the DD5 if there aren't tangible benefits?

the point is, both my FDL and my DBS (as well as my python and a bunch of other ships) have DD5 tuning, but the FDL wins much more of it. the DBS is still a small and nimble ship and reasonable fast, but hit much harder by optimal mass loss, and pve it generally doesn't make a difference whether you boost 460 or 480 or 520 (which my FDL does) ...

that said, ofc the python needs no buff at all. engineered it is stupidly strong - only missing utility slots (for kws + 3 boosters + heatsink + chaff) ... which is good.

 

[Lowe1978]

In Elite lore, the FdL is *the* ship to fear. I always felt in 1.2 times it was underpowered and frankly a little underwhelming. What we have now (especially once engineered) is pretty much how I expected it to be, but I agree with the sentiment that the price is now way too low. Put the price back to what it was; 100 mil.

 

[jasonbarron]

FDL is king in combat. Everyone who seriously disagrees is just stupid. Period. Dunno how they gonna balance that and when or if at all.

In 2.0 it was okay-ish as there still was some burst damage available so it could be punished for not using boosters but now ..

I guess that makes me stupid. Thanks for softening the blow, though

 

[GTwannabe]

I hated my FDL. Bad hardpoint layout, inadequate internals, way too much drift, and stupid pilot location with canopy frame obstructing my view. Only thing I liked about it was the ability to shield tank for combat zones.

 

[Truesilver]

If the FdL brings a feedback cascade rail to a Python duel, he wins. If he doesn't, he loses. Same against Anaconda, Corvette or Cutter.

It really is that simple.

The problem is, every PvP-er has a feedback cascade rail.

Does anyone disagree?

 

[Ydiss]

Buahhahahaah


eeeh, i cant get it longer. Its cold, and i am laughing. I will get ill because of you



Not equal. Python always was better.
For PvE a Python is >>>>>>>>> better than FDL
In PvP 1vs1 Python is also better when we get two pilots on similar skill. Python can outtank FDL, Python can masslock FDL, FDL can run, and python can jump whetever he want.
In PvP wing vs wing a FDL is a bit more flexible because of speed, and in pre Engineer wing vs wing encounter a base shield was a bit more important than SCB because of focus fire strategy. So python was a first target because he was slow and shield was easier to drop by fire of focused other ships. 6A scb was unable to raise it so fast... but now SCB can spin faster

Now you can improve 6A prismatic on Python add crafted boosters and finally it will be enough tanky and agile to hold a bit longer on focus fire. Its a ship also worth testing in wing pvp, however pvpers loves FDL because of its speed, shape and feeling (just a funnier to fly than Python)

Not really convinced. I know the Python well enough to know it's not "always" been better than the FDL. It took several steps down when it was changed (rightly so) and when I played last (before engineers), the FAS was superior for my play style, but the Python was about the same overall if you focused on scb and heatsink combat (not my thing, hence the FAS being the best ship for me at the time). In fact, the three ships felt nicely balanced back then. But the Python the best? Not a chance.

I can't comment on how it is now as I've not engineered mine yet. I'm hearing good things but I can't see where it would get superior shield strength compared to the FDLs 6 utility slots.

As I said, I'm going to try both in the beta so I can make my mind up. But I've read enough from players who have a good reputation for knowing their stuff that this contradiction I'm seeing here is... Surprising.

I'd love it if the Python was a better combat ship because I've always had a soft spot for it. But considering the very direct changes FD made to its base stats to ensure it was actually a multirole ship and the very direct changes they made to make the FDL a very combat focussed ship, engineers would need to be significantly kind to the Python and significantly unkind to the FDL for the Python to be a much better choice in combat.

I suppose it's possibly moot anyway. I'm not a fan of scb combat so both the fdl and the Python might not suit me regardless of how great they are. But then that's what made me think the fdl was supposed to be overpowered. In pve people are saying you can tank damage in a CZ all day long due to the massively engineered shields.

 

[Kyokushin]

If the FdL brings a feedback cascade rail to a Python duel, he wins. If he doesn't, he loses. Same against Anaconda, Corvette or Cutter.

It really is that simple.

The problem is, every PvP-er has a feedback cascade rail.

Does anyone disagree?

Feedback cascade is not i-win against SCB, and Python also can have feedback cascade, more SCB's and 3000 armour.
AT FDL 8 SCB to counter, on python at least 15. If one of shots will work, or two partially, then you will have more MegaJules on Python.
You can avoid cascade shot if you know how and on Python you have three times more tries in SCB. A bit more base shield in FDL is absolutely not compensating that.
And when they nerf thermal, then python got a huge buff. You can use scb without HS (if you know how) or two shots on one HS, and you do not care of heating

Not really convinced.

Its a simple math mate (and 2 years of pvp fighting...)

P.S.
I forgot. Python have more DPS because of capacitor and hardpoints so FDL shield will drain quicker Another point for Python.

 

[Kubicide]

FDL is king in combat. Everyone who seriously disagrees is just stupid. Period. Dunno how they gonna balance that and when or if at all.

In 2.0 it was okay-ish as there still was some burst damage available so it could be punished for not using boosters but now ..

Yep. Facts speak for themselves: what is essentially the combat PVP ship of choice right now? It's the FdL and there's really nothind to debate. Simply look at what players are using. It's understandable FdL drivers want to quickly defend any change but the facts are the facts.

Python was once OP in the same way as the FdL is today, and this was backed up by the same facts at the time. Many were using it as it was simply too good of a ship. And it survived its adjustment (or nerf) as the FdL defenders would certainly agree that today the Python is not a bad third or fourth choice for combat. People didn't like changes to it at the time. But it's proof ships can be rebalanced from being OP and still remain viable; they just won't simply be "too good".

FdL drivers shouldn't be afraid of changes as they still have their overwhelming skilz! Oh, and buffed fixed guns too!

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Feedback cascade is not i-win against SCB, and Python also can have feedback cascade, more SCB's and 3000 armour.
AT FDL 8 SCB to counter, on python at least 15. If one of shots will work, or two partially, then you will have more MegaJules on Python.
You can avoid cascade shot if you know how and on Python you have three times more tries in SCB. A bit more base shield in FDL is absolutely not compensating that.
And when they nerf thermal, then python got a huge buff. You can use scb without HS (if you know how) or two shots on one HS, and you do not care of heating



Its a simple math mate

P.S.
I forgot. Python have more DPS because of capacitor and hardpoints so FDL shield will drain quicker Another point for Python.

If both have feedback cascade, then FDL wins due to way higher base shields. As soon as the shields are down, OC MCs will shred python's armour even if the modules don't fail first.

Distributor is irrelevant, MCs need barely any WEP capacitor

That's outside the massive advantage the flight model gives the FDL (able to use fixed etc)

 

[Ydiss]

If both have feedback cascade, then FDL wins due to way higher base shields. As soon as the shields are down, OC MCs will shred python's armour even if the modules don't fail first.

Distributor is irrelevant, MCs need barely any WEP capacitor

That's outside the massive advantage the flight model gives the FDL (able to use fixed etc)

This is where I'm not convinced with his assertions. He is saying "slightly better shields" when most say "way better shields".

Seems more like nerf evading tactics to me.

 

[Kyokushin]

If both have feedback cascade, then FDL wins due to way higher base shields. As soon as the shields are down, OC MCs will shred python's armour even if the modules don't fail first.

Distributor is irrelevant, MCs need barely any WEP capacitor

That's outside the massive advantage the flight model gives the FDL (able to use fixed etc)

LOL. Everything what you wrote is LOL.

1. Feedback is not a i-win counter. Its easy to avoid it and on Python you have 15 shots to counter, on FDL 8.
2. A bit higher base capacity of FDL totally do not matter here.One shot from 6A SCB is compensating that
3. OC inciendiary multis are eating capacitor as hell.
4. Python have more capacitor and more DPS, and can shoot longer with 4 pips in shields and 2 in weps than FDL and FDL will in meantime not able to shoot on 4 pips in shields na 2 in wep. IF FDL lower shield pips to 2,3 or 3,5 pips to charge WEp then his shield will simply fail in seconds from python fire.
5. Fixed? yes, i used them in last year. Now i switched for gimbs because they provide a more widther fire window. Avoiding chaffs is not a big deal for me.... and ofcourse you can use Fixed/mixed build on Python. You just need to 'know how'

I have fully crafted fdl/python/vette/cutter/conda, whatever you want, in all builds what you want. rails/multis/lasers/rockets/torpedoes.
I fought with that, tested it, so please....

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Okay, I've held out long enough.

Buying an FDL tonight.

 

[SushiCW]

http://i.imgur.com/fmAj8iS.png

FDL has gotten a lot stronger since its original inception. Thoughts?

IMHO FDL never needed the buff in the first place, although I say that with caution since I've never actually flown one.

TBH I don't really care much anymore because I've given up on PvP. The FDL's ubiquity is part of that problem, but not even close to the biggest element. As long as PvE stays reasonably fun, I'm content. (And if they somehow manage to fix PvP to be something I find fun again, great, but I'm not holding my breath).

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

http://i.imgur.com/fmAj8iS.png

FDL has gotten a lot stronger since its original inception. Thoughts?

I'm one of the few who didn't yell for an upgrade. My two points of contention (I didn't even complain about the price) where the FSD range (which engineers helped), and the power plant due to upcoming C4 weapons (which brought about the broken silent running fiasco since it was bugged.) We knew FD was planning to update modules, we just didn't know how aside from what we'd known of how they had different weapons versions in beta and gamma (like Overcharged weapons and the like.)

Prior to the upgrade, the FdL was used by pilots who ejoyed it's flying style compared to the iClipper, the later FAS and of course the Vulture (which is easy mode next to anything but an Eagle.) Since the upgrade, it's become the most widely used ship in the game because it overcame all of the limitations that it had. In many ways buffing the FdL the way they did, was not unlike the pre-nerf Python.. except it was more durable, ran almost as cool (the pre-nerf Python didn't have to worry about heat), outgunned the Python and was still faster and more maneuverable. Frontier should have considered all that when they were looking at the FDL imo.

With that in mind, I think they should take a look at the Python again. They should also re-look at the FDL and bring it back in line with the iClipper and FAS so there's a little more diversity like there used to be. Sersiously, I haven't seen a combat Clipper or FAS in awhile. While I do see Clippers from time to time, they're usually traders or miners. The FAS is so out of favor, the FGS and even the FDS seem more popular choices now days.

Which brings up one last nitpitck. They need to standardize utility module slots, or this will continue to keep happening. People will often work around internal module slots to shoe-horn a build that works for them because they like how a ship looks, flies, sounds or whatever. When you bring utility modules into the mix, that's the deal breaker because of just how ridiculously powerful Engineers have made Shield Boosters.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

LOL. Everything what you wrote is LOL.

Lol isn't an adjective

1. Feedback is not a i-win counter. Its easy to avoid it and on Python you have 15 shots to counter, on FDL 8.

If you're running triple class 6 banks you need double heatsinks. That means your max base shield vs multis (assuming you're conservative and running Heavy Duty Boosters and Reinforced) with prismatics is 2200 vs kinetics, 1500 vs mixed and 1100 vs thermal. An Incendiary all MC one feedback rail FDL will have a DPS of 135 mixed, so will shred your shields in 11 seconds or so. Each bank takes about 10 seconds to work, so if you miss a bank, you're dead. You simply won't be able to use all your banks. Each bank only extends your life by a further 3 seconds, so you'll have to constantly double bank to survive (each bank takes more than 5 seconds). Throw in rams etc and you're looking at a super quick TTK.

2. A bit higher base capacity of FDL totally do not matter here. FDL have a bit better here, because ONE shot from 6A SCB is compensating that

FDL has roughly double the strength vs mixed, and the resistances means each SCB adds an additional 1.5x MJ due to being able to run resistant boosters.

3. OC inciendiary multisy are eating capacitor as hell.

I'm not aware of any added capacitor draw from incendiaries, and my all-fixed OC MC FDL can spam them indefinitely with 2 pips

4. Python have more capacitor and more DPS, and can shoot longer with 4 pips in shields and 2 in weps than FDL and FDL will in meantime not able to shoot on 4 pips in shields na 2 in wep. IF FDL lower shield pips to 2,3 or 3,5 pips to charge WEp then his shield will simply fail in seconds from python fire.

Again, I can fire all my MCs with 2 pips to weapons.

5. Fixed? yes, i used them in last year. Now i switched for gimbs because they provide a more widther fire window. Avoiding chaffs is not a big deal for me.

Even with perfect accuracy, FDL has smaller hitbox and can get behind/on top of you

 

[Kyokushin]

Lol isn't an adjective



If you're running triple class 6 banks you need double heatsinks. That means your max base shield vs multis (assuming you're conservative and running Heavy Duty Boosters and Reinforced) with prismatics is 2200 vs kinetics, 1500 vs mixed and 1100 vs thermal. An Incendiary all MC one feedback rail FDL will have a DPS of 135 mixed, so will shred your shields in 11 seconds or so. Each bank takes about 10 seconds to work, so if you miss a bank, you're dead. You simply won't be able to use all your banks. Each bank only extends your life by a further 3 seconds, so you'll have to constantly double bank to survive (each bank takes more than 5 seconds). Throw in rams etc and you're looking at a super quick TTK.



FDL has roughly double the strength vs mixed, and the resistances means each SCB adds an additional 1.5x MJ due to being able to run resistant boosters.



I'm not aware of any added capacitor draw from incendiaries, and my all-fixed OC MC FDL can spam them indefinitely with 2 pips



Again, I can fire all my MCs with 2 pips to weapons.



Even with perfect accuracy, FDL has smaller hitbox and can get behind/on top of you

OK, then take FDL and i will take python. I will show you it literally.
We make stream for interested persons in that topic.
I really cant read that crap any longer.

It seems you never flied FDL with crafted MC's, shield, never touched a Engineer on Python.
Or Your experience is from PvE or coriolis.io.

 

[Truesilver]

Even with perfect accuracy, FDL has smaller hitbox and can get behind/on top of you

And a guy who knows how to use rails will not miss a Python. In the PvP League, Adle's Armada accuracy must have been around 90% if not higher and that was against FdL and FAS.

The Python guy's accuracy is irrelevant because if the FdL guy is smart, he will clear range each time before he uses his own SCB's.

OK, then take FDL and i will take python. I will show you it literally.
We make stream for interested persons in that topic.
I really cant read that crap any longer.

I will look forward to watching this but Kyokushin, you do know who Alexander the Grape is, don't you?

I mean ... like ... undefeated and all that ...

 

[Alexander the Grape]

And a guy who knows how to use rails will not miss a Python. In the PvP League, Adle's Armada accuracy must have been around 90% if not higher and that was against FdL and FAS.

The Python guy's accuracy is irrelevant because if the FdL guy is smart, he will clear range each time before he uses his own SCB's.

^^yup, FDL can completely control range of engagement also

 

[Marshall...]

If both have feedback cascade, then FDL wins due to way higher base shields. As soon as the shields are down, OC MCs will shred python's armour even if the modules don't fail first.

Distributor is irrelevant, MCs need barely any WEP capacitor

That's outside the massive advantage the flight model gives the FDL (able to use fixed etc)

That and the 30% damage bonus the synthesis bug permanently gives MCs, which folks seem to be abusing....