A possible way to inspire people to play in Open

[Lysette]

Accurately describing their behavior is not insulting them. And no, there are no real consequences for established players killing new players in protected system. It’s possible they changed that, but I doubt it.

it is like it has been described - if you aren't a rookie (= less than 30 days old) and you kill newbies in a starter system, you will eventually be banned.

You said protected systems - that is not all of highsec though - just because CONCORD acts on acute criminal offenses, doesn't make it a protected zone.

An established player has anyway no interest to kill a newbie - nothing to gain and shameful - but he could accidently be by-catch - as in someone wants to gank a more valuable target and that newbie appears in the system list in exactly this moment becoming the target, because he replaced the intended target in the system list. Happens often enough in busy systems with a lot of traffic. When I jump into a system with my blockade runner, and press "warp to 0", "cloak", I will be visible in the system list for just a second and other ships in the list move down in the list and a second later up again, because I'm cloaked then and no longer in the list - things like that lead to by-catch.

 

[wrmiller]

I think a big problem is new players come to the forums, see everyone going on about how open is a nonstop murderfest and decide to go into solo. It's mostly hyperbole. Yes if you go to see Farseer during peak hours you will likely see someone who wants to collect your scalp. But Ive been playing for years in quite active areas of the bubble with active squadrons exclusively in open and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been ganked. It's not as scary as it seems, people. Punishing people for killing other players is much more likely to drive people away from the game than being killed by another player in a game where it's expected that it might get "dangerous" ever will.

I've hung my hat at Jameson for years. It's almost impossible to NOT see open squares (which turn into triangles) when entering or leaving that system.

So bring your cargo hauler or miner and hang out at Jameson for a few months. Bring lots of credits with you too.

 

[Gunther_Bladderburst]

It's a simple idea that could easily be implemented with the existing mechanics, as they appear to work. Since most of the people who play in solo do so to avoid pirates and gankers, the only way to lure people out of solo is to drastically reduce the risk of encountering those types. And I think you could do that by instituting a "death penalty" for anyone who attacks an unarmed ship. Basically, attack an unarmed ship and your commander is erased as if you had hit the menu option yourself. All your ships, all your money, all your ranks-- gone. Enjoy your new Sidewinder!

Wow that will surely bring people into open if they risk losing everything by just playing the game. Great idea!

 

[gthk]

Insulting the players of an alternative spaceship based video-game is obviously not a good starter.
Still, I'll clear up an evident falsehood from what you've tried to establish:

Killing newbies in starter systems in EVE Online is a big no-no.
There are consequences, in that GM's will give offenders a warning, followed up by a ban.

I would consider to shift to EVE online

 

[Brrokk]

I think a big problem is new players come to the forums, see everyone going on about how open is a nonstop murderfest and decide to go into solo. It's mostly hyperbole. Yes if you go to see Farseer during peak hours you will likely see someone who wants to collect your scalp. But Ive been playing for years in quite active areas of the bubble with active squadrons exclusively in open and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been ganked. It's not as scary as it seems, people. Punishing people for killing other players is much more likely to drive people away from the game than being killed by another player in a game where it's expected that it might get "dangerous" ever will.

I doubt this. I guess that only a very small fraction of new (or old) players read these forums. And the forums look different to me: I don't see anyone going on about Open being a "murderfest". We often point out that it's not, as you have done.

I do see a lot of people saying they prefer Solo because they don't want to interact with other players, and that's surely their choice.

ED's modes, allowing everyone to choose the level of interaction they want, are brilliant design causing the game to appeal to a much wider variety of players than a simple MMO would.

Most of the salt from this issue isn't from people who get exploded, it's from people who want to influence or constrain others' choices. Which is pretty weird in a sandbox game.

 

[Gunther_Bladderburst]

What special effect should I add to the clean drives on a T6 so it could outrun a Viper?

Engineering doesn't level the playing field. You can engineer pirate ships too.

It was just an idea to make some people comfortable enough to play in open. It wasn't a suggestion for how to get rid of solo. If it were my game, I'd get rid of open and anything to do with multicrew or forced groups.

You can’t survive being interdicted because either you ship is terrible or you lack skill.

Solution: butcher up the game for everybody else so you can have your safe space…

weren’t you the guy earlier complaining about the « soy generation »?

 

[Dragsham]

I think Op was not a good idea.
But...
What if....
What if in the first few seconds of being interdicted, there's a lull, whereby those who choose for whatever reason, not to partake and just wanna run, can do so. Perhaps even a pop up menu with options to low wake or high wake to a random nearby system. That lull would be say, 5 seconds.
In that time, that lull, the hobo or pvper is tumbling and dependent on notoriety, receiving increased damage across modules. The price of using an interdictor.
This would not happen if two cmdrs were duelling. Only instance is when an interdiction device is used.
That way we can all survive the experience if need be or want.
But..... there has to be a roll against. Thus a small element of risk reflected by being in open.
That part I ain't figured out yet.
Can't have haulers all impervious to interdiction. Has to be risk. That's the fun!!
And yes I mined in open alot in borann and lost loads so l know the pain.

o7

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

The problem with PVP gankers for me is that they're not terribly realistic and take away from the game. An NPC may gank you, then scan you but if you're not carrying any cargo, they'll generally just fly off, because you're not what they're looking for. PVP gankers don't care if you're carrying cargo or not, often they have no cargo racks themselves to rob anything, because they just want to blow people up, which is essentially what a psychopath would do, except given the limited consequences of doing something like that, means that you end up with a far greater number of people displaying such psychopathic behaviour than you would in real life.

This means that if you do want to go out into open, in any densely populated system, you realistically have to be fully kitted out for combat, and engineered to boot, and this makes it impossible to carry out any mission that is not combat focused, because every slot you don't use to harden your defenses or strengthen your weapons, is one that some adolescent would-be Alex DeLarge will have filled out for combat because all they're looking to do is to make your ship go boom.

I don't think forcing PVP to be consensual is the solution as it would be just as unrealistic as the glut of psychopaths spending all their time ganking anything that moves. As in real life, if there were more realistic consequences for breaking the law, this might go a long way in calming down open, but this would have to be measured against game play that requires breaking the law.

Or perhaps having solo and private groups is the best possible solution overall. If you want to socialize, go into open while docked or play in private groups. Otherwise stay in solo.

 

[Dragsham]

There has to be consequences to this behaviour. A whole suite of stuff that makes being a murderer insufferable. Serious yes and hard hitting. Op was too harsh. But he has a point.
The isn't any risk to commit murder (unprovoked random).
That's the problem.

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

because they just want to blow people up, which is essentially what a psychopath would do, except given the limited consequences of doing something like that, means that you end up with a far greater number of people displaying such psychopathic behaviour than you would in real life.

If it were actual people they were blowing up, yes that would ve psycopathic. But it is not. It is pixels in a video game.

The fundamental divide between gankers and their vocal victims is one of what is ”fun”. There is always going to be the fundamental:
”Why would you ruin my fun?”
Vs
”Why would you consent to pvp by playing in open if you cant handle it?”

That is why having several game modes tailored to different groups makes sense.

 

[MishaTX]

This means that if you do want to go out into open, in any densely populated system, you realistically have to be fully kitted out for combat,

I get your sentiment, but you're wrong. All you have to do is to put on shields. If you're fully kitted out for combat, it's because you want to fight and win. If you just want to survive long enough to be able to survive, you don't have to do hardly anything at all.

You can run from a gank attempt in a stock Cobra if you know how to fly, but you don't have to be an expert PvP'er to escape a gank attempt in a ship that's even slightly equipped to defend itself. I mean, how many times have you failed to kill an AI mission target because it managed to wake out before you could disable its thrusters/FSD in time? And AI pilots absolutely blow chunks.

If that's never happened to you, then you don't need to worry about flying in Open. You're more than good enough.

 

[Raliel]

I play in open constantly, I got killed by another player exactly once (not counting the FPS shooting in Frontline Solutions)

 

[Lysette]

There has to be consequences to this behaviour. A whole suite of stuff that makes being a murderer insufferable. Serious yes and hard hitting. Op was too harsh. But he has a point.
The isn't any risk to commit murder (unprovoked random).
That's the problem.

But that is exactly what lawless space is like or where police forces are not capable to deal with it. I lived in south africa where crime is rampant and where you need your own security staff - police can't help you, they might come when you are dead but otherwise you are on your own. And if this is already on earth this way in a country, where there are laws and police (but where private security exceeds public security), it is even more so in lawless space.

just to be clear here, i never have been a ganker, even I had my pvp years in EVE - but it was always about defending or conquering territory and getting rid of possibly spies. In a way that is where emergent game play has to take over. You don't like it, well get some friends or hire mercenaries and kick these gankers out. There are ways to deal with it.

urrrgh - i forgot that FDev hasn't implemented anything to make this possible - you cannot trade with other people - ED is so poorly designed, it is just terrible at times.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

If it were actual people they were blowing up, yes that would ve psycopathic. But it is not. It is pixels in a video game

I'm aware of that. Apparently we're not actually out in actual outer space either. But thank you for reminding me, without you I would not be certain.

My point is that it's not particularly credible, people tend to be reigned in and when they commit crimes, it tends to be for specific, logical reasons, such as theft. As such it takes away from the simulation aspect of the game.

The fundamental divide between gankers and their vocal victims is one of what is ”fun”. There is always going to be the fundamental:
”Why would you ruin my fun?”
Vs
”Why would you consent to pvp by playing in open if you cant handle it?”

That's a bit like saying "if you didn't want to get mugged you shouldn't have stepped foot outside your home", which is a questionable argument to say the least.

That is why having several game modes tailored to different groups makes sense.

Oh, I don't deny it is a solution to the problem, and probably the best we have at present, just it is not necessarily the only one.

But that is exactly what lawless space is like or where police forces are not capable to deal with it.

Ignoring for a moment that we don't actually know what 'lawless space' would be like, other historical examples would point to it not being like that. In the American wild west, or during the dark ages, the credo of might is right might have ruled the day, but acts of random violence for no reason other than to perpetrate violence were not that common. There was nothing to stop a gunslinger or mercenary man-at-arms from killing a random passer-by, but typically, unless they had a reason or at least a pretext, they tended not to - life may be cheap, but that doesn't mean you don't have to weigh up your options.

 

[VirtueXOI]

this is not the time for an open vs solo post, we community have other things to brag about =D

 

[Lysette]

Ignoring for a moment that we don't actually know what 'lawless space' would be like, other historical examples would point to it not being like that. In the American wild west, or during the dark ages, the credo of might is right might have ruled the day, but acts of random violence for no reason other than to perpetrate violence were not that common. There was nothing to stop a gunslinger or mercenary man-at-arms from killing a random passer-by, but typically, unless they had a reason or at least a pretext, they tended not to - life may be cheap, but that doesn't mean you don't have to weigh up your options.

i wasn't talking specifically about space as in the space we fly in in ED, but any lawless area or where law cannot be enforced properly. I even mentioned south africa, where I lived for nearly 7 years, which is a quite lawless space, even there are laws, but police is incapable enforcing it. it's not even that they would be lazy, they are hard working people and do their best, but crime is just everywhere and they can just care for the worst of them - like murder, assault and so on. This is what I meant with lawless space. And for the reason to commit those crimes - well, money resp. what money can buy like drugs. Or just because they can, doesn't take another reason for some.

 

[galahad2069]

I'm aware of that. Apparently we're not actually out in actual outer space either. But thank you for reminding me, without you I would not be certain.

You say you're aware of that, but you don't seem to be actually aware of it, because a few lines later you go again:

That's a bit like saying "if you didn't want to get mugged you shouldn't have stepped foot outside your home", which is a questionable argument to say the least.

No, that's absolutely not like getting mugged. It's pixels, remember? You don't actually die, you don't even get injured, nothing like that. That's a fundamental difference you don't seem to understand.

What's more, not even your ingame character can die in this game. There is no death in the game. Your CMDR will respawn totally unharmed, you won't have to choose a different CMDR name and you won't have to start the game over if someone shoots your pretend spaceship down.

 

[Dack Janiels]

tbh I always wondered if people malding the same way when they die in super mario, or space invaders

 

[[VR] Orodruin]

That's a bit like saying "if you didn't want to get mugged you shouldn't have stepped foot outside your home", which is a questionable argument to say the least.

I disagree. I am not a PvPer, but when you log in to open it clearly states the conditions. Given that it is a video game and not an actual life thing, you should expect people to behave as if it is. They are under no obligation to make your simulation experience more realistic and calling them out to be psycopaths is taking it a step too far.

The only way of reugulating this would be a more punishing crime and punishment system (but resetting someone’s commander is not a reasonable step).

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

No, that's absolutely not like getting mugged. It's pixels, remember? You don't actually die, you don't even get injured, nothing like that. That's a fundamental difference you don't seem to understand.

You do understand that one can be aware that something is not real, but a simulation and yet point out where that simulation is not very realistic?

What you don't appear to understand is that if the game departs from what is realistic, too much then it loses it's appeal. It's one of the reasons that many people prefer ED over similar space sims, such as NMS.

And for the reason to commit those crimes - well, money resp. what money can buy like drugs. Or just because they can, doesn't take another reason for some.

That was my point. Typically there are reasons for why crimes are committed, and some times they are simply because someone 'can', however, as things stand, this is the rule rather than the exception, which does distract from the realism of the game.