All you do is nerf

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This community attitude that you are somehow supposed to be able to pay for 'your' fleet carrier while it also is meant as a credit sink for billionaires is bizarre and contradictory. What is actually driving this game (or atleast its economy) into the ground, hmm?

Nerf and buff nerf and buff it never works out, it is never 'fun' for some people it is just terrible and wrong. I'm pretty sure that if Frontier could just fix balance they would have done it by now. What we really need is a living economy that balances itself, for example by not supporting a large enough market for everyone to go sell trade meta goods, but that does not seem to be happening any time soon.
Hmm, a point largely made in a way that makes it worth discussing? That’s not for this thread! 😉

Anyway, I’d assert that the whole concept of balance, and specifically, being able to ‘fix’ it is flawed. (With no disrespect intended in the phrasing used.)

You see, when people talk about balance, they don’t usually mean ‘balanced’ they mean ‘balanced in the way I personally want it’.

And therein lies the problem. FD will never be able to be able to balance the game in a way that people can’t claim is unbalanced, because of how balance is looked at by people.

To illustrate, consider any of the ‘Risk vs Reward’ posts that come up. Have you ever seen any that consider it holistically and don’t just omit very significant factors such as Fun, Experience, Learning, Challenge, etc? Or do they all just completely omit anything which doesn’t amount to ‘I should get more credits’?

And that for me has always been a good illustration of how the concept of balance will be seen and misused, no matter what.
 
Look i understand that LTD were out of hand with their Mcr/h.

But jfc how about you buff other professions at the same time ? This just makes it obvious that you care more about people not burning through your game than actual fun in the game.

Most of us are already sick of mining, how buffing bounty hunting somehow ? Signal sources with lots of high paying (several milion worth) pirate lords ? Very high intensity conflict zones ?

Double payouts for exploration ? Anything ?

Are you only willing to change numbers if its something like this ??
That's because Frontier lost the distinction between content and grind. MMOs use grind to stretch content. FD has been stretching it so much that they now actually favor grind ahead of content. God forbid someone would actually enjoy playing as they wish without having to go through mind-numbing repetitive activities until they're bored to death and lose interest in the game. Hell, the only reason I stuck around for so long is only because after grinding missions with paltry payouts for more than 200 hours just to get a semi-decent python, I managed to make a quick two billion from passenger missions a couple of years back, before they nerfed them again. Then I could buy a big ship and could actually start making credits properly, and get on with doing combat missions in my Corvette without worrying about credits. If I didn't jump on that train when I did I'd have given up on this game long ago.
 
Mod please lock this thread if possible.

I give up on this community
Why? In another thread the guy says the community is a bunch of whiners who wants it easy, and here you're implying we all want the game nerfed. Me personally, I'd love to see a true economic model brought to the game (which is neither a buff nor a nerf), but in the meantime, I want a fleet carrier after 3 years of playing the "normal way", and if that means using a gold rush to do it, so be it!
 
To be honest, and i does remain to be seen, i suspect mining will be absolutely fine. 25% less yield for sub surface is still potentially 100T from a single roid, if you're lucky with number of deposits. It will slow down, but you dont need to make a billion in 2 hours for mining to be a perfectly viable way to earn a FC in a sensible amount of time.
 
Look i understand that LTD were out of hand with their Mcr/h.

But jfc how about you buff other professions at the same time ? This just makes it obvious that you care more about people not burning through your game than actual fun in the game.

Most of us are already sick of mining, how buffing bounty hunting somehow ? Signal sources with lots of high paying (several milion worth) pirate lords ? Very high intensity conflict zones ?

Double payouts for exploration ? Anything ?

Are you only willing to change numbers if its something like this ??

I have simpler idea than buffing all of the other things, simply allow the player to pick her/his equipment and ships from the list of ingame assets at the beginning, they could also have a choice for starting level right up to triple elite.
All nerfs are because of a mistake in gameplay assumptions, they're a way of correcting a mistake, sometimes they are knee-jerk reactions and others they are thought through a provide the best outcome for the least work... and that is the important thing here, the original work on Economy seems to have been in house (and sometimes Margie in the four tabled canteen isn't best choice to organise the annual banquet) and that has been the problem from day one and can only lead to a lifetime of buffs and nerfs.
 
I don't ever think we'll see a complete reset, that is probably just a pipe dream... but maybe, a better system can be introduced gradually, and the idea of a terrible catastrophe repainting the economic map is pretty interesting. There could be some kind of compensation for previous assets, especially if Cmdrs are there and take action during the events. Everyone doesn't need to be reduced to 100 Cr and a Sidewinder.

Maybe this event could involve the introduction of a new currency? It doesn't need to be named anything fancy, just a new credit, but with the critical difference that this currency is not a pure fiat currency like the old credit, but bound to some kind of resource and activity. Every new credit gained would be the result of either Credits changing hands or being minted through some activity which would be limited in volume and maybe not even posssible for a player.

Then you need more reactive markets, with way smaller saturation limits. How many kilotonnes of LTD jewelry can the producers make before people want to spend their hard-earned credits on something else?

Hmm, a point largely made in a way that makes it worth discussing? That’s not for this thread! 😉

Anyway, I’d assert that the whole concept of balance, and specifically, being able to ‘fix’ it is flawed. (With no disrespect intended in the phrasing used.)

You see, when people talk about balance, they don’t usually mean ‘balanced’ they mean ‘balanced in the way I personally want it’.

And therein lies the problem. FD will never be able to be able to balance the game in a way that people can’t claim is unbalanced, because of how balance is looked at by people.

To illustrate, consider any of the ‘Risk vs Reward’ posts that come up. Have you ever seen any that consider it holistically and don’t just omit very significant factors such as Fun, Experience, Learning, Challenge, etc? Or do they all just completely omit anything which doesn’t amount to ‘I should get more credits’?

And that for me has always been a good illustration of how the concept of balance will be seen and misused, no matter what.
Absolutely, but I think a big step towards making this work is adding more flexibility. That word doesn't say much, so here's an example:

Danger. It is reasonable to assume that in general, more profitable activities are more difficult, and one such example could be danger.
In my ideal world, there exists almost perfectly safe activities, maybe hauling scrap out of Sol into a neighboring system. This playstyle would be very calm, you will have no legal trouble, no bandit trouble, but income would be very low. Maybe some people would prefer this calm 'space trucker' style and happily run back and forth for 50 hours, maybe it would not feel like grind to them if they have some good music and a nice chat with the Connie pilot at the Barnard's star station mailslot. Maybe some people would play like this occasionally to wind down. But if it is too slow, then there are more dangerous activities, and these exist on a spectrum, and that spectrum goes all the way - to the ludicrously profitable, and dangerous. Elite II had a large population anarchy system that had some pretty good market opportunities, but when you dropped out (and it was quite a way to the starport, too...) you would immediatly start getting swamped by hostiles. If you switched to the system maps, you could see all these ships going straight for the little treat that just popped out of witchspace.

Imagine a player doing some kind of legendary trade run into the most crazy-dangerous space, braving enormous dangers and making a huge profit of one of the most unreachable trade deals in the galaxy. Imagine that experience. Imagine that they show off by recording it and posting on the forums. Will people complain about how all that income was 'unbalanced'? Maybe some person will, but I think in general people will be in awe, entertained by the video, and maybe inspired to do similar things ingame. And some people will succeed maybe, and some will not, and will have to pay expensive rebuy costs instead

Note that there is no absolute optimum, the level of danger you want to pick depends on how good you are at handling danger... and how much danger you actually want to face.
 
I wouldn't go that far, but if that's what it takes...
Lol I'd love to see it. I just started on PC from scratch about a week ago because there's no way to port my 1000+ hour PS4 profile over. There's nothing better to rub the grind in your face than starting over from scratch. Most players would just quit the game. And I bet that many of those who claim that the payouts in the game are fair and balanced, and that the nerf policy shouldn't be addressed will be the first to quit.
 
I'm not gonna argue with a buff to combat payouts, but let's be real here. I mined for two evenings in a vopal/ltd overlap (no idea what effect those overlaps have, but I'm just gonna assume it's a single hotspot for each) and dumped the opals on the carrier's market after jumping it back to the bubble. I was selling for 950k. Markets were buying for 1 million, with a single 1.6 somewhere off I couldn't be bothered tracking down. I woke up this morning, and my carrier's upkeep was paid for the next 10 months 'cause someone took advantage of what must have been a nicely lucrative trade run for them.

And this was opals. I haven't even sold the diamonds yet.
 
Lol I'd love to see it. I just started on PC from scratch about a week ago because there's no way to port my 1000+ hour PS4 profile over. There's nothing better to rub the grind in your face than starting over from scratch. Most players would just quit the game. And I bet that many of those who claim that the payouts in the game are fair and balanced, and that the nerf policy shouldn't be addressed will be the first to quit.

If they reset the game to where the payouts are now, id still be in an full A rated anaconda in a week.

If you search the forums you will find a thread stated by me about starting an alt on Xbox and complaining about how easy it was, and this is way before the mining xploit.
 
Look i understand that LTD were out of hand with their Mcr/h.

But jfc how about you buff other professions at the same time ? This just makes it obvious that you care more about people not burning through your game than actual fun in the game.

Most of us are already sick of mining, how buffing bounty hunting somehow ? Signal sources with lots of high paying (several milion worth) pirate lords ? Very high intensity conflict zones ?

Double payouts for exploration ? Anything ?

Are you only willing to change numbers if its something like this ??
Most fcs owners have earnt that mega money by nerfs... shame really , I just do exploration, and I'm no where near 5 billion for a fc - if I did have that and a fc I'd have one stationed out in the black with cartographics and repair functions... an island in the black for explorer's
 
Good day commanders...
I have to agree with BluStar on the aspect of Bounty Hunting. The cost of rebuy, upkeep and restock not to mention the initial time and credits to build combat and bounty hunting ships, far exceed the rewards via bounties.
You can travel the road to riches in exploration and make a decent amt of credits that make sense in accordance with ship build costs, mine diamonds and make credits relative to ship build costs and upkeep...
n fact, there is pretty much a vid on how to earn Xcredits per hour on most activities in the game yet bounty hunting seems to be the red headed step child.
To me, while this post does mention mining, and credits earned easily, it's more about the unbalanced play of bounty hunting and it's overly lopsided pay out.
To make any sort of money you need to wing up in BH and even then the pay is low for the amt of time and restock.
When I look at the codex and see the amt. spent compared to earned (and let's not forget pilot payout) it's crazy upside down.
I personally don't like mining and liked it paying higher for the time put in, but I get it. I'm not upset. I like exploration and have been working on BH to try and get my Triple elite but it pays so low I basically need to stop and take on a 2nd job to pay for upkeep.
Now with tariffs on resupply at fleet carriers the soak will be even more for BH with now cost of living increase.
Just my opinion of course and I'm not the best combat pilot and maybe I'm doing it wrong.... but everything else seems to pay more with little risk or costs.
Re-balance is a good thing, but more re-balancing and less nerfing, I believe, is the issue at hand.
 
If they reset the game to where the payouts are now, id still be in an full A rated anaconda in a week.

If you search the forums you will find a thread stated by me about starting an alt on Xbox and complaining about how easy it was, and this is way before the mining xploit.
I have no doubt that there will be few people who will have no issues with it, and would even do well if that happens. I can buy a full A-rated Anaconda right now - a week after I started. But how many people like that are there? Are players like that representative of the bulk of the player base, or are just outliers?
 
I have almost all services installed, upkeep is 20 million, if you cant make that in combat, you are doing something seriously wrong.

Are people so bad at this game that they have to mine?
Yes. Yes they are.
I just want to say that OP's title would make for a great Beatles cover.
Yes.
Mod please lock this thread if possible.

I give up on this community
Bye.
Whines pathetically. Gets called out. Blames the community.
Classic.
🍿

Also inb4 lock.
 
I have no doubt that there will be few people who will have no issues with it, and would even do well if that happens. I can buy a full A-rated Anaconda right now - a week after I started. But how many people like that are there? Are players like that representative of the bulk of the player base, or are just outliers?

I dont know, but making the claim that its people who want things nerfed are the people most likely to quit if there was a reset just seems like baseless poo flinging.

If there was a reset I dont think that many would quit for payout reasons, it would be having to regrind engineers/guardians/rank etc that would be the real er.
 
Mining made (and still makes) other "professions" feel useless. For example there is little point in regular trading, because you just feel like a chump for not mining rocks. Sure, you can just fly a trader around and pretend you are making a buck, but you have to shut down the part of your brain that tells that this is basically a colossal waste of your time, because you are losing enormous amounts of credits by simply not mining rocks.

And no, I am not troubled that "you" or "him / her" are earning a ton of credits. I am bothered by a game world that basically tells you "mine or miss out".

I don't have a problem with a profession being more profitable than others. But when one profession is "you can afford X in 2 days" and the next one is "you can afford X in 2 years", you have a game logic that makes most professions seem like they are meaningless to the game world at large.The credit rewards for various professions should be closer. It's okay that some are like 50% more profitable than others, but when we see that they are 50x more profitable than others, the balance is wildly out of whack.

As a personal taste I find very easily achievable goals in games like this off-putting. I am not tempted by FCs for example, because I know the route you should take is to just mindlessly grind rocks and watch your account balloon up. Sure, the grind in ED is overly tedious for many types of rewards, but for my taste the mining yields is a bad solution to this.

I also think it would be cooler if the more profitable things were stuff like delivering supplies to dangerous war-zones or smuggling stuff to ports with tight security, and perhaps similarly that profitable mining spots either came with dangers of their own or you had to find your own spots in emptier parts of space. Bounty-hunting, assassinations and similar things (which I do most of the time, especially now that trading feels pointless) could perhaps be at 30% to half of the more profitable professions. This way you can't just do "your thing" for the most effective path to profits, but you aren't completely missing out or forced to take a profession you don't find appealing either.
 
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