Allow use of pre 3.3 Advanced Discovery Scanner

[Faded Glory]

So I was having a bit of a think about this and perhaps it might be possible (with a bit of rebalancing). It's a common gaming mechanic that stuff that automates tasks or makes them more convenient has some drawback over doing it by hand so to speak, either in terms of time taken or quality of result of whatever is produced. Take the docking computer in ED for example; the benefit is that you can dock hands off but the price you pay is the time taken to do it - it is quicker if you do a manual landing.

So looking at the ADS in the same vein, I thought perhaps the ADS could come back with a few tweaks. Instead of the instant reveal of the honk it is something that you switch on and it does a progressive scan of the system. It starts to populate the system map with bodies in the order of proximity to the ship. The more bodies there are the longer it takes to fully scan a system. In terms of balance with the FSS the ADS:

1. The time taken to fully scan a system scales according to the number of bodies in it.
2. The time taken to scan a body in the ADS would be less than it takes in the FSS in line with the reduced information the ADS scan reveals (as before) compared to the FSS scan.
4. ADS scan would not give the discovered by tag (as before). To get the discovered tag it would need a FSS scan or a fly by close enough for auto resolution.
5. What happened to 3?
6. Perhaps the throttle needs to be zero while ADS scanning, or perhaps not. Personally I'm ambivalent about this.
3. Here I am. Sorry I am late.

Now all of this doesn't take into account the effort to implement it and support it but in principle how does this sound?

The thing is, the ADS 'honk' doesn't (and isn't being suggested to) scan a system. It simply reveals bodies present (as unexplored) in a picture.

The FSS 'honk' does scan stars (and other bodies in close proximity), but otherwise just does the same as the ADS except it reveals those bodies as energy readings on a spectrum.

The suggestion that only the ADS provided an instant reveal isn't correct, the FSS provides the same information just in a different format. Arguably, the FSS reveal is far more accurate and powerful.

The reason people are asking for the ADS to be brought back is simply to enable quite niche forms of exploration such as spotting stellar forge anomalies without having to scan everything first or to enable players to target bodies and fly to them if they don't find the FSS gameplay engaging.

For most exploration styles the FSS will be the way to go. It's easier and quicker to identify specific body types with certainty and it makes cherry picking those bodies easier. In short, it makes 'traditional' exploration quicker and easier, styles of exploration that FD likely knew from their metrics that most players engaged in.

Simply bringing back an optional ADS module that worked exactly as it did would not affect anyone who likes the FSS, but would enable niche exploration styles to be accommodated, at the 'cost' of having to use a module slot.

 

[biot]

Simply bringing back an optional ADS module that worked exactly as it did would not affect anyone who likes the FSS, but would enable niche exploration styles to be accommodated, at the 'cost' of having to use a module slot.

My suggestion does not alter the content of what the ADS returns compared to what it used to return, it merely balances how long it takes to get it to a duration more commensurate to the effort expended (by the player) to activate it. Essentially it lengthens the ADS "honk" functionality according to the number of bodies in the system.

Edit: to clarify further, with this ADS functionality:

1. If you don't want to use the FSS you don't have to
2. If you want the data that the old ADS gave then you don't need to touch the FSS to get it
3. If you want to fly to a body to tag it you can like you did before

You can do exactly what you did before with the downside is that you have to wait a bit longer than just a fixed duration honk to get it; the honk is scaled to the complexity of the system. This seems to be a fair pay off (IMHO).

 

[Faded Glory]

My suggestion does not alter the content of what the ADS returns compared to what it used to return, it merely balances how long it takes to get it to a duration more commensurate to the effort expended (by the player) to activate it. Essentially it lengthens the ADS "honk" functionality according to the number of bodies in the system.

Why? Surely then you'd need to lengthen the time it takes for the energy spectrum to be populated. Why should the FSS be able to reveal what types of bodies and how many are in a system any quicker than an ADS?

Activating the FSS takes about the same amount of effort as using the ADS did in my experience except you get a bit more from the FSS reveal (all stars in a system are scanned and any bodies in close proximity are also scanned). The only difference is having to throttle to zero to activate it.

If you are trying to 'balance' something because you feel that it is otherwise 'easy mode' then IMHO that is unnecessary. The ADS simply doesn't provide any advantage (not that exploration is particularly competitive) other than for the niche exploration styles I mentioned.

Edit: Just saw your edit...

Why do you feel there need to be downsides to not using the FSS. Anyone choosing not to use the FSS to scan bodies is already putting themselves at a huge time disadvantage, and in my experience not using the FSS energy spectrum to identify 'traditional' exploration targets is also nowhere near as efficient or accurate than using it.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Is "niche exploration styles" a euphemism for "Press USE to Explore"?

 

[Faded Glory]

Is "niche exploration styles" a euphemism for "Press USE to Explore"?

Nope.

 

[biot]

Why? Surely then you'd need to lengthen the time it takes for the energy spectrum to be populated. Why should the FSS be able to reveal what types of bodies and how many are in a system any quicker than an ADS?

From comments in this and other threads some are not concerned with composition, more with arrangement/orbital variables of bodies. It appears that those who favour the ADS are concerned about the composition of the data it presents, which is why I'm not advocating at change in that composition. The FSS spectrum doesn't give any information related to that. As for the # of bodies, no reason why the ADS couldn't give that number when it is initially switched on - it could give a progress bar, for example, as it runs.

Activating the FSS takes about the same amount of effort as using the ADS did in my experience except you get a bit more from the FSS reveal (all stars in a system are scanned and any bodies in close proximity are also scanned). The only difference is having to throttle to zero to activate it.

I have to disagree with the above. I've been using the FSS a lot during DWE2, I've scanned over 2.5k systems now. I don't know how typical my experience is but it takes me about 10 seconds on average to tune into a body. The average number of bodies per system is between 12-13, so on average I'm taking 2 and a bit minutes to FSS scan a system. This is significantly more effort in terms of time taken and interaction with the game than the old ADS honk which was done in less than a tenth of the time and didn't vary in duration.

To reiterate - the only change I was suggesting was that the time that ADS honk takes to return all the data it used to should at least scale to the system complexity. And that the average time it puts those bodies into the system map would be less than using the FSS - to use my own times as an example, the ADS would add a body to the system map every 2 seconds or so. It would be much faster than the FSS and would not require any additional interaction than the old system. That really is the only difference.

 

[Riverside]

To reiterate - the only change I was suggesting was that the time that ADS honk takes to return all the data it used to should at least scale to the system complexity. And that the average time it puts those bodies into the system map would be less than using the FSS - to use my own times as an example, the ADS would add a body to the system map every 2 seconds or so. It would be much faster than the FSS and would not require any additional interaction than the old system. That really is the only difference.

It's not what I'm looking for but it is a decent suggestion to mitigate the argument that having both enabled is OP.

I recorded one of my system scans a while back, how does my speed compare to yours?

Elite Dangerous system discovery using the 3.3 FSS and DSS

 

[Faded Glory]

I have to disagree with the above. I've been using the FSS a lot during DWE2, I've scanned over 2.5k systems now. I don't know how typical my experience is but it takes me about 10 seconds on average to tune into a body. The average number of bodies per system is between 12-13, so on average I'm taking 2 and a bit minutes to FSS scan a system. This is significantly more effort in terms of time taken and interaction with the game than the old ADS honk which was done in less than a tenth of the time and didn't vary in duration.

To reiterate - the only change I was suggesting was that the time that ADS honk takes to return all the data it used to should at least scale to the system complexity. And that the average time it puts those bodies into the system map would be less than using the FSS - to use my own times as an example, the ADS would add a body to the system map every 2 seconds or so. It would be much faster than the FSS and would not require any additional interaction than the old system. That really is the only difference.

The thing is, unless I'm misunderstanding you, and apologies if I am, you are talking about two different things.

Your experience with the FSS matches mine. It takes me a couple of minutes to fully scan a system with 15 bodies, less than five for a system with 30 bodies and less than 10 for systems with 45 plus bodies. But that is fully scanning a system. The ADS doesn't scan anything in a system, just shows what is there, as does the FSS when you charge it with similar interaction as the old honk.

Honking the ADS gave you a system layout of unexplored bodies. Charging the FSS gives you the number of bodies and what types (unexplored) and scans all stars in a system.

If you are talking about effort in scanning a system then there's no contest, the FSS wins hands down every time. Fully scanning a system with the FSS is typically faster than flying to one body to scan it the old way.

Now, if what we are talking about is not allowing those specifically looking for stellar forge anomalies the ability to spot them with little effort (note, spot, not scan or discover), then that's a different thing, but in that case a compromise would be that the FSS doesn't show what types of bodies are in a system, just how many bodies total. If you want to explore or discover them then you have to scan them first and hope what you are scanning is worthwhile, because that seems to be what people are expecting anomaly seekers to do.

 

[Riverside]

Now, if what we are talking about is not allowing those specifically looking for stellar forge anomalies the ability to spot them with little effort (note, spot, not scan or discover), then that's a different thing, but in that case a compromise would be that the FSS doesn't show what types of bodies are in a system, just how many bodies total. If you want to explore or discover them then you have to scan them first and hope what you are scanning is worthwhile, because that seems to be what people are expecting anomaly seekers to do.

I think your analogy of an equivalent nerf to the FSS is a good one, it paints a picture.

I don't think biot is taking issue with the idea of one process or another (ie ADS disables the FSS), but suggesting that the relatively small time difference between using the FSS alone and using both FSS & ADS is compensated for by slowing the ADS honk. I think it's worth looking at how much time that actually is. It may only be a second or two per system, which would be fine. Arguably this second or two (if that is what it is) could be removed from the FSS honk rather than added to the ADS equipped Honk, a QoL change I'm sure many would appreciate. The extra time (ie same as now) taken with an ADS equipped could be justified because more work is being done.

 

[Faded Glory]

I don't think biot is taking issue with the idea of one process or another (ie ADS disables the FSS), but suggesting that the relatively small time difference between using the FSS alone and using both FSS & ADS is compensated for by slowing the ADS honk.

Well, if that compromise were accepted by the couple of ardent naysayers I'd be fine.

Mostly I'm just discussing on principal. Like you, I've used the FSS, and I just don't buy that the ADS is somehow easy or quick mode. In my experience it's exactly the opposite.

 

[Riverside]

Well, if that compromise were accepted by the couple of ardent naysayers I'd be fine.

Mostly I'm just discussing on principal. Like you, I've used the FSS, and I just don't buy that the ADS is somehow easy or quick mode. In my experience it's exactly the opposite.

Quite. But I'm sure the majority of players would be happy for the FSS honk delay to be reduced

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

If something were to be left in by mistake and it caused no issues there would be no problem. In this case something was going to be removed for a reason, that reason went away but the thing was removed anyway. It shouldn't have been, time could have been saved on a short deadline release by not removing the thing. However it may already have been too late down the line to avoid (the work may have already been done before it was realised there was no need to do it).

This required some justification which has not been provided, the logical resolution is that that justification is provided (I don't believe it can be justified) or the three modules (I only really care about the ADS, but the point stands for all three) be reinstated.

As a final note, that a person does not see (or think there is) a problem does not mean that there is not a problem. Fundamentally existing gameplay elements should not be removed on a whim

There maybe reason why it was removed. Many have voiced some reasons, which you disregard, but that doesn't make them invalid. FDev probably have their own reasons too. They do not have to justify it to anyone either.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well, if that compromise were accepted by the couple of ardent naysayers I'd be fine.

Mostly I'm just discussing on principal. Like you, I've used the FSS, and I just don't buy that the ADS is somehow easy or quick mode. In my experience it's exactly the opposite.

That depends on what you are after. If you use the FSS to only get the system map filled in then the old ADS is much much faster depending on the system. Obviously systems with only stars get filled out at the same speed.

The you get to decide what planet to fly to (if any) in a much faster time. Pretty easy to figure out.

 

[Schmack]

There have already been enough cherry picked systems that frustrate travelers who are 20K LY out and still finding that the ELW or WW is the only discovered planet in the entire system of 51 bodies. The FSS brings that to a screeching halt.

 

[Enderby]

Yeah now whole systems are scanned instead. That’s better, is it?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yeah now whole systems are scanned instead. That’s better, is it?

Jeez what is it. Is the FSS a cherry pickers heaven or a completionist heaven. You guy can't seem to make up your mind.

Are the whole systems fully scanned? From what I have seen its a mixture.

 

[Enderby]

Jeez what is it. Is the FSS a cherry pickers heaven or a completionist heaven. You guy can't seem to make up your mind.

Are the whole systems fully scanned? From what I have seen its a mixture.

My problem with the awful fss has never been about cherry picking. I don’t care about it.

But i don’t think it makes cherry-picking any more or less prevalent.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

My problem with the awful fss has never been about cherry picking. I don’t care about it.

But i don’t think it makes cherry-picking any more or less prevalent.

Still waiting on a proper reason why the FSS is so awful.

 

[Enderby]

You take a night class in annoying or does it just come naturally?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You take a night class in annoying or does it just come naturally?

Comes naturally. How about you. Does your annoying come naturally or have you learnt it?

I just want to read a proper reason why it's awful and not some made up crap.