PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

The fact that the op states that it was 'we' doing the investigating not 'me'.

Nonetheless that still doesn't invalidate the fact that combat logging was perpetuated by several people in this investigation and nothing was done about it.

It doesn't really matter who's the offender, cheating is still cheating no matter who's doing it.
 
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not that I disagree with anything, but your sample size in this second experiment is 1 ship... I don't know how many people combat logged over the course of that time but I doubt enforcement is 100%
 

Deleted member 110222

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An element?! :D This thread is the funniest one I've seen for a while. Polarized views all round, all demanding that others have to do things their way...

Keep it coming. I have enough popcorn. :)

Never mind popcorn! I've got two number nines, one with cheese!
 

Deleted member 115407

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There is an element of humour in a group who pride themselves on being as unpleasant as possible demanding players get punished for refusing to play with them.

Its certainly never lost on me. ;)

Your humor is misguided then.

Combat logging doesn't just affect SDC. There are all manner of situations wherein people combat log - many of them during consensual and otherwise reasonable combat encounters. All you have to do is watch the range of videos in the r/CombatLogger subreddit to understand that.
 
It would definitely require a lot of work, and because ED is an MMO it is a very risky change - bugs in netcode results in disconnects, rubberbanding and desyncs which are a lot more serious than the bugs say a graphics API change may introduce, where you may have planets having super deep craters for some players but not others.

It is very much a solvable problem.
 
Personal Background: I engage in PVP rarely, and condone neither cloggers nor gankers. When someone combat logs on me, I still consider that a "win", and have only reported it once or twice for really egregious offenses. I have NEVER combat logged, not even when the other side was using cheap exploits. So on the face of it, I am the type of player that this deficiency of justice wouldn't seem to impact at all.

HOWEVER, I find Frontier's seeming inability to enforce their own rules to be particularly disturbing. If Frontier are going to refuse to be open and accountable cops (instead acting like secret police that never seem to deliver justice) then I fear that groups like SDC and other "terrorists" will take matters into their own hands and create a more chaotic environment for the rest of us. A open and clear ruleset might be exploitable, but at least it would give us something to bank and rely on.

I'll give you guys full credit for punishing the engineering hackers, even though it was only after massive forum pressure. But expecting us to simply take your word, when everyone here on the forums personally knows at least 1 or 2 serial combat loggers who have never once even suffered a "warning" on their accounts? This not only stains credulity, it also massively diminishes the integrity of the game. Games need rules. For the sake of the game, please make these rules public, and please ENFORCE them going forward. That would be a fair result.

I'm on the forum, I don't know any combat loggers, incidentally I've never been griefed either. Been playing since PB, both these issues are and have always been blown out of all proportion. There really are bigger issues affecting a much larger player base currently in this game.
 
Personal Background: I engage in PVP rarely, and condone neither cloggers nor gankers. When someone combat logs on me, I still consider that a "win", and have only reported it once or twice for really egregious offenses. I have NEVER combat logged, not even when the other side was using cheap exploits. So on the face of it, I am the type of player that this deficiency of justice wouldn't seem to impact at all.

HOWEVER, I find Frontier's seeming inability to enforce their own rules to be particularly disturbing. If Frontier are going to refuse to be open and accountable cops (instead acting like secret police that never seem to deliver justice) then I fear that groups like SDC and other "terrorists" will take matters into their own hands and create a more chaotic environment for the rest of us. A open and clear ruleset might be exploitable, but at least it would give us something to bank and rely on.

I'll give you guys full credit for punishing the engineering hackers, even though it was only after massive forum pressure. But expecting us to simply take your word, when everyone here on the forums personally knows at least 1 or 2 serial combat loggers who have never once even suffered a "warning" on their accounts? This not only stains credulity, it also massively diminishes the integrity of the game. Games need rules. For the sake of the game, please make these rules public, and please ENFORCE them going forward. That would be a fair result.

But the rules are clear - combat logging is cheating unless it's a menu log. Crystal.

What we don't know at player level are the inner workings at Frontier in investigating claims of combat logging (or other forms of cheating for that matter). I have no doubt that Frontier is applying the 'innocent until proven guilty' approach, and I suspect the proving (presumably beyond reasonable doubt) is the difficult bit because there are so many factors that could cause a disconnect. Of course, that's where pattern of behaviour comes in - but if Frontier comes clean about what constitutes such a pattern of behaviour, it becomes more easily avoidable, as Paige pointed out. I'd prefer they keep quiet about methods and perhaps started to open up about stats, but I don't blame Frontier for not giving in to the demands of groups like SDC to disclose their methods when it is unclear whether such groups would then in turn seek to circumvent those same methods (almost certain to occur given past track records).

For the record though, I for one do not personally know any serial combat loggers (none to my knowledge at least). I'm sure they exist, but I also don't think the scale of the problem is as great as some claim. The main impact is in PvP, correct? Because in PvE scenarios the cheat is not impacting anyone else. But PvPers are in the minority, significantly so I would argue. So is it really that big a problem? Are the 'PvPers' most impacted the gankers/griefers? If so, let them be combat logged on. Is it occurring within the PvP community itself (PvPers logging on fellow PvPers)? Then let PvPers police their own community through the block function or setting up their own PvP private group (akin to Mobius for PvE) and enforce a no combat log rule. Those are the tools PvEers have to avoid griefers/gankers. How many combat logs occur, across the ENTIRE playerbase, in a given day? 5? 10? 100? 1000? We don't know, so we don't know how significant the problem truly is as a whole, and therefore we don't know what priority Frontier should place on the problem. Those affected of course will inflate the impact and significance, but their point of view will be biased,as will their opinion of what needs to be done.
 
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The strong will prey on the weak.

The unprepared or weaker in numbers will lose out to the prepared and higher numbers.

Organized responses to gank and grief are much more difficult to implement than the random strikes of organized groups in popular areas aiming at CMNDR kills. This is the game.

Responses to the perceived griefs and ganks do occur but aren't consistent.

So what happens when there's a perception of a sickness w/o a cure? Players self-medicate, they CL.

The cure isn't here yet.
 

Deleted member 115407

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I'm on the forum, I don't know any combat loggers, incidentally I've never been griefed either. Been playing since PB, both these issues are and have always been blown out of all proportion. There really are bigger issues affecting a much larger player base currently in this game.

Not many combat loggers in Mobius, huh?
 
But the rules are clear - combat logging is cheating unless it's a menu log. Crystal.

Please re-read the quote in the post you're responding to. Frontier has just said they are keeping their "complex" internal standards of cheating and punishments out of the public eye intentionally in order to avoid exploits. A rule is only a rule if breaking it has consequences. Just like any system, transparency is always the best policy. The current system is almost utterly opaque, and as far as we can see, there are no consequences. This may not seem like a "big deal" but it essentially means that chaos reigns in the game, and any justice will seem arbitrary by definition. The only thing holding the integrity of Open together is the "honor system" enforced by the social community. That's essentially Frontier abdicating authority to the Reddit mob. Not a recipe for a stable or happy Open player base.
 
Your humor is misguided then.

Combat logging doesn't just affect SDC. There are all manner of situations wherein people combat log - many of them during consensual and otherwise reasonable combat encounters. All you have to do is watch the range of videos in the r/CombatLogger subreddit to understand that.

I've had a ganking wing clog on me one after another, I thought it was hilarious.

The problem with r/cloggers is they report menu logging and encourage other people to report it, menu logging to escape is lame but it is legit. Knowingly cluttering up supports in box with non-cheating isn't the best way to get listened to. There's also some people who got caught at the 5-1 cheat running it, so their claims about who is and isn't cheating have to be taken with a massive pinch of salt.
 
Please re-read the quote in the post you're responding to. Frontier has just said they are keeping their "complex" internal standards of cheating and punishments out of the public eye intentionally in order to avoid exploits. A rule is only a rule if breaking it has consequences. Just like any system, transparency is always the best policy. The current system is almost utterly opaque, and as far as we can see, there are no consequences. This may not seem like a "big deal" but it essentially means that chaos reigns in the game, and any justice will seem arbitrary by definition. The only thing holding the integrity of Open together is the "honor system" enforced by the social community. That's essentially Frontier abdicating authority to the Reddit mob. Not a recipe for a stable or happy Open player base.

I would argue the standards applied are not the rule. The rule is simply no combat logging except by the menu. The 'standards' your talking about are not the rule, but the measures by which Frontier determines whether the rule has been broken - the metrics if you will. Transparency of those standards/methods exposes them to exploitation. Transparency of how many times the rule has been broken, punishment dished out and such would be welcomed, but not transparency of exactly how Frontier determines guilt or innocence. There are too many here who would, we know, then set about circumventing those standards if they were known precisely - past behaviours are evidence enough that such players and groups are inventive enough to do so.
 
let's be honest here, as a scientific experiment the methodology of this is rubbish. Sample size of 5 over 5mnts, this amount of 'CL' could easily be a poor connection.

A far better method would of been doing the Cl 5 times a hour, once a week over the course of 5mnth to simulate a real CL doing it intentionally.

That aside, if the CL IP's were identified as belonging to the same group as the 'complainants', then FD may well of discounted them as spurious.
 
I've had a ganking wing clog on me one after another, I thought it was hilarious.

The problem with r/cloggers is they report menu logging and encourage other people to report it, menu logging to escape is lame but it is legit. Knowingly cluttering up supports in box with non-cheating isn't the best way to get listened to. There's also some people who got caught at the 5-1 cheat running it, so their claims about who is and isn't cheating have to be taken with a massive pinch of salt.

There is considerable short-term, ultimately self-defeating logic to all of this, however people are what they are. FDev are in a position to be able to make all of this stuff moot. It is frustrating that a situation that can be resolved relatively cheaply has still not been patched.
 
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