PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Whitmann]

It would require an immense amount of skill to toss a coin 100 times and get it to come up heads every time.

That doesn't mean it'd be an enthralling pursuit to participate it.

Not quite sure what you're suggesting here - that it's luck whenever someone bests another in PvP combat?

 

[DukeIronHand]

It really is great seeing the forums freak out and lob ad-hominem attacks against a perfectly legitimate complaint.

Legitimate complaint from SDC! I...I...sorry. Almost swallowed my tongue laughing.
Let me tell you about my last real Open foray and SDC. You and your ilk were pad blocking at a CG.
Then the Engineers cheat. And now CLogging? 5 times in 5 months?
You really must have something better to do. Don't you?

 

[Stealthie]

Not quite sure what you're suggesting here - that it's luck whenever someone bests another in PvP combat?

No.

Simply that a requirement for skill does not guarantee a thing will be interesting or enjoyable.

Indigowyrd said that he finds combat boring because there is little in the way of strategy or tactics required.
You attempted to rebut that statement by suggesting that combat requires skill.

You are conflating different things and have created a straw-man argument in the process.

 

[verminstar]

18 pages...impressive...so ye clogging is bad mojo and shame on FD fer not enforcing their own rules.

Other thing to remember who the ones doing the accusing are and their history...

However...ye boo hiss on frontier, bad frontier, naughty frontier...is it true we getting fluffy dice this year?

 

[ryan_m]

Not quite sure what you're suggesting here - that it's luck whenever someone bests another in PvP combat?

I'd just skip that argument if I were you. Its really funny watching someone who doesn't PvP talk about how there's no strategy to PvP. How would they even know if they don't actually do it?

 

[DukeIronHand]

Sample size of 5 = science!

You forgot the sample of 5 in 5 months.
The fact the FDev didn't assign a task force of 10-12 programmers on this to investigate is just scandalous.
What will the "international gaming press" think about this? Still think their going to "pick this up in 24 hours."
This "complaint and indignation" about FDev's "lack of response" is a joke right?

 

[Strangepork]

How did we get here?


Late last year, we posted the results of our investigation into FDev’s actions on combat logging and found, unsurprisingly, that they were doing nothing. The project had two phases:


* Phase 1 involved reporting a bunch of combat logs while providing the videos for them and seeing if they were ever watched. None of the videos were watched, but we learned that FDev can apparently figure it out using “internal methods”. This wasn’t going to cut it on its own, obviously.
* Phase 2 included multiple SDC members combat logging on each other with video evidence and proper tickets being submitted. No accounts received any warnings from FDev


What we found was that while telling the community they were punishing combat loggers, they were actually doing nothing at all. FDev responded to the post predictably, assuring everyone that they *totally do punish loggers*, but that they messed up and didn’t follow the process for these specific combat logs over the course of 3 months or so. Shocking.


Obviously, we were still incredibly skeptical, despite FDev’s assurances that the process would be followed in the future, so we decided to test them again.


Before we move on to our new investigation, I think we should go over what combat logging is, as well as why it’s bad. I’m going to shamelessly lift from the previous post here:



What is combat logging?


Combat logging is the act of forcefully quitting (by either program task-kill or forced internet disconnect) the game while engaged in combat with another player. Frontier has clarified this act as an exploit, and a bannable offense.
Combat logging to the main menu/desktop via the 15 second timer is a different matter and discussion to be had entirely. Currently, this action is confirmed by Frontier as “legitimate”, and as such is not being addressed in this post.



Why is combat logging bad?


Aside from being classed as exploiting by Frontier themselves, combat logging is bad for the game (and gameplay experience) of both the exploiter and the victim. Not only does logging deprive both players of meaningful interaction in game that is vastly empty and void of a human element, but it stifles the rare emergent experiences that make the game more than a sterile grind.


Furthermore, the very nature of risk and reward is upended (a fundamental aspect of any game) because the combat logging party is never faces any risk of loss. Because the combat logger faces no negative consequences for any action, non-combat loggers must shoulder the full—and completely asymmetrical—burden of risk for any interaction: this disincentivizes meaningful PvP gameplay in a game billed as a space MMO.


Prime examples of gameplay styles that are hard-countered by combat logging include:


* PvP piracy
* Powerplay undermining defense/attacks
* Inter-faction warfare
* Player bounty hunting
* Hunting newbie-killers
* Blockades
* System protection



What does Frontier claim to be doing about it?


After much consternation and discussion involving the relative legality of combat logging with the devs, community, and community managers, Frontier ruled the action of combat logging to be “exploiting” and as such is punishable by shadowbanning offenders (a “shadowban” is a client restriction preventing them from accessing “open play,” which is the online mode with other players.) After this ruling, Frontier has encouraged the reporting and documenting (usually with a YouTube link and supporting chat screenshots) of CMDRs engaging in exploiting. This reporting is done via the support ticketing system, and is usually accompanied by confirmation from Frontier that they have received, and are reviewing, the case of exploiting: they have a stated response time of “usually within 48 hours” for reviewing tickets and supporting documents related to the case.


In the previous post, some commenters brought up some great criticisms of our methods. One that stuck out in our minds was that our process was too randomized. Nearly every reported log came from a different account, so if it was the first offense for all of those, maybe FDev wouldn’t action them at all.



The new plan


Given the shortcomings of our previous plans, we put the lone SDC brain cell to use to establish as fool proof a plan as we were capable of forming:


* A secure alt would combat log multiple times on multiple different players
* All combat logs would be recorded from the aggressor’s perspective, from interdiction through the in-game report after the combat log
* An additional ticket would be opened on the FDev website, and a short description of the events would be provided, along with the video of the incident


Following this procedure would ensure multiple tickets submitted for combat logging, which would establish a pattern of behavior for this account. The “logger” account was active, participating in PvE activities like trade CG’s and exploring. The account was purchased in June 2017, and was played as a normal account for this timeframe. Currently, the account has the following stats:


* Assets: 87 mil
* Combat/Trade/Explorer rank: Novice/Broker/Pathfinder
* Farseer/Elvira/Blaster unlocked and upgraded to G5
* Ships owned: AspX, Viper Mk3


A total of 5 combat logs were recorded over the course of 5 months. We did this to simulate what we felt a real player would do. No one combat logs 10 times in a week, they space it out when they run into PvP activity.


* Ticket from combat log #1
* Ticket from combat logs #2 & 3
* Ticket from combat log #4
* Ticket from combat log #5


In summary, what we have here are 5 different clear combat logs done from the same account over a length of time, which should be crystal clear to FDev as such. All logs were task-kills and were reported minutes after they occurred.



What we found


Frontier is still doing literally nothing about punishing combat loggers. An account that had 5 clear task-kills received no punishments, no account limitations, not even a single warning letter.


This is now the 2nd time we have caught Frontier red-handed lying about their procedures surrounding this exploit, which has existed since game launch and has still not been fixed. FDev’s continual refusal to punish combat loggers is an absolute disgrace to the playerbase of this game. At this point, we can only assume that Frontier does not punish combat logging at all, either because they can’t detect it or because they don’t want to.


FDev, be straightforward with us. If you don’t care about combat logging, say so. It will save people a bunch of time if we don’t have to submit tickets for this stuff every time we see someone cheating. Instead, what you’re doing is undermining faith in yourselves, because you’re telling people to report exploiters because you totally do punish them while taking those reports and tossing them in the garbage can.

In short FD do nothing about logging because it's opposed to there business interests, do you get it?

 

[Riverside]

I'd just skip that argument if I were you. Its really funny watching someone who doesn't PvP talk about how there's no strategy to PvP. How would they even know if they don't actually do it?

The implication is that engineering wrecked PvP, a position I'm confident you would understand. Your defensive stance blinds you.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I'd just skip that argument if I were you. Its really funny watching someone who doesn't PvP talk about how there's no strategy to PvP. How would they even know if they don't actually do it?

These are the exact same people that argue in the modes of elite subsection of the forum.

They fight against certain things. And when you ask for their input or experience to help meet in the middle you get things like, "Id never be caught dead in a guild" or "I dont know im just an explorer" ect ect.

Same guys with no experience throwing their weight around. They havnt a clue whats going on with PVP or the BGS.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

These are the exact same people that argue in the modes of elite subsection of the forum.

They fight against certain things. And when you ask for their input or experience to help meet in the middle you get things like, "Id never be caught dead in a guild" or "I dont know im just an explorer" ect ect.

Same guys with no experience throwing their weight around. They havnt a clue whats going on with PVP or the BGS.

Attacking the posters, not debating the points, how original personal attacks when debating skills fail.

 

[Bdragon4]

They havnt a clue whats going on with PVP or the BGS.

Maybe if they existed beyond our imaginations and 3rd party tools, people might understand lol.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Attacking the posters, not debating the points, how original personal attacks when debating skills fail.

Just pointing out the obvious. It has to do with part of this conversation. Lots of people speak up. But they arent involved or know the actual facts.

The people exploiting wasn't just the no good PVPers in this game. Just like the Credit fountains that exist. Everyone and their mother took advantage of those things. Thats why there was no wide range punishments for it.

If it were just a few people. It may have been different.

Lots of people speak up cause they legitimately dont like some of the people playing this game. So they throw everything they can at them.

But some of those same people that throw that stuff around, have also been caught ON VIDEO (seems to be an ongoing thing around here people ignore). Combat logging. And reported.

Ill quote my boy goose here. Isint it Ironic? Dont ya think?

Maybe if they existed beyond our imaginations and 3rd party tools, people might understand lol.

This is true

 

[Cocalarix]

So let me get this straight. PvP groups cheated for over a year with the Engineering exploit, griefed players with those illegally-obtained mods, and all that happened was that those specific mods were removed. The players who suffered losses from that griefing were never compensated in any way. Yet somehow these same PvP groups expect FD to "punish" players for combat logging when the game remains inherently unstable and actually "proving" that it was intentional rather than a game crash is not actually possible until the game stability issue are addressed.

Sorry, but if you cheat then you lose all credibility in asking FD to "enforce" certain rules for you when you couldn't follow the game rules yourself.

I think I have a meme for this.

https://i.imgur.com/VG1PfEo.jpg

Great use of whataboutism.

You won't find a bigger FDev fanboy than me, but it's completely irrelevant if SDC is Satan's squad or not.

FDev promised to do one thing, and the facts show that they're not doing it or they're being way too lenient. It's that simple.

Try and attack the argument and not the person next time.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Great use of whataboutism.

You won't find a bigger FDev fanboy than me, but it's completely irrelevant if SDC is Satan's squad or not.

FDev promised to do one thing, and the facts show that they're not doing it or they're being way too lenient. It's that simple.

Try and attack the argument and not the person next time.

The facts don't show this though. This is the lamest investigation with zero methodology and a tiny sample size, not to mention the fact that it was also 'fabricated' and had no real incidents of combat logging in it. SDC have successfully made a storm in a tea cup, getting folk all angry before they realise they've been conned by a fake report of no scientific merit.

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

Haaaa just came back into the game after a long hiatus. Good to see some old standards are holding up pretty good! SDC folks entitlement, for instance.

 

[Knot2clever]

I'm beginning to think this isn't a real post but more of an in game political role play, if only if it wasn't for the smoking gun.

 

[Lateralus]

The facts don't show this though. This is the lamest investigation with zero methodology and a tiny sample size, not to mention the fact that it was also 'fabricated' and had no real incidents of combat logging in it. SDC have successfully made a storm in a tea cup, getting folk all angry before they realise they've been conned by a fake report of no scientific merit.

Oh please. Fdev wouldn't have known they were a test (if they did know they probably would have responded to the reports to avoid all this).. If people think that Fdev are actually investigating and punishing combat loggers, the ball is in their court to prove it now.

Creating a 'storm in a teacup' is necessary if Fdev consistently ignore this problem (nearly 4 years now).

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Oh please. Fdev wouldn't have known they were a test (if they did know they probably would have responded to the reports to avoid all this).. If people think that Fdev are actually investigating and punishing combat loggers, the ball is in their court to prove it now.

Creating a 'storm in a teacup' is necessary if Fdev consistently ignore this problem (nearly 4 years now).

Dude it was 5 reports in 5mnth,that was my complaint about the poor method; even if they appeared genuine that's at the level of normal 'net error' can you not see that?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Hey guys,

I've responded to this thread over on Reddit and pasted the response below as well.

"Good evening everyone,

I understand the concerns that have been addressed in this thread and would like to take this opportunity to reassure you all that the team responsible for investigating issues such as cheats and combat logging have reviewed and verified that their processes have been followed, and that the account was reviewed by the team as part of these reports.


A huge number of factors go into reviewing each report and I can personally confirm, having been a part of the team that reviews these reports, that action is taken on a regular basis. However, we do not discuss the process, tools or systems for detection publically, as doing so would help people avoid detection.


While we understand the frustration caused when met with combat logging, continuous attempts at uncovering our investigation methods is not the way to assist with this being dealt with, as any information we give could be used to avoid detection.
As you likely know, combat logging is something that has been discussed openly with the community by our development team. There have been discussions and feedback on concepts such as a Karma system (here’s an example). This is one idea being considered in order to address such issues.


I’m sure you can appreciate that finding a solution that allows for automatic detection against rule breakers while also being fair on honest players is something that holds a number of challenges. It is something under discussion and active consideration but we have nothing to announce right now.


Kind regards,


Paige"

Old news.

I get it, the system should remain in secrecy BUT more details regarding the limits of CLog (or apparent CLOG) before any punishment or warning would help calm down the hysteria.

I also give some rep to the OP, it did try to remain constructive and it must have been tedious to develop it.

 

[verminstar]

Great use of whataboutism.

You won't find a bigger FDev fanboy than me, but it's completely irrelevant if SDC is Satan's squad or not.

FDev promised to do one thing, and the facts show that they're not doing it or they're being way too lenient. It's that simple.

Try and attack the argument and not the person next time.

Well ye I mentioned both parties too in a way, but if its any consolation, I had a boo and a hiss at FD first and last with SDC in the middle.

But however, FD do get the boo and the hiss...not cos I care about the clogging issue as a whole...I dont. But when the devs cannot or will not enforce a rule that they themselves stated would be enforced...then one has to wonder what other rules could be broken and never punished.

No consequences means no fear of consequences equals anarchy and chaos...hasnt open play taught them nothing that they themselves make the same mistake not once, but twice?

But Im no fanboi either, so this is somewhat less of a surprise to me...this is just another day...maybe thats the greatest tragedy of all.

That being said, two wrongs do not make a right ^