PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

Deleted member 115407

D
Precisely why I use it, thanks for noticing.

Right, thanks for making my point for me.

Since you choose to play in a Private Group that prohibits PvP, then this issue wouldn't seem to affect you in any way - you neither have to use the method, nor are you affected by it. In fact, it's likely that you have little to no experience with the issue.

Yet, for some reason you still found it apt to stop in on this thread to proclaim that the issue has been blown out of proportion and is of little consequence.

It's very obvious that you're salty, and are trying to conceal that salt behind a facade of nonchalant dismissal.

You got blowed up once and now you can't let it go.

We got it. You can stop now.
 
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Cos you KNOW if they had been smart enough to use new ip addresses unlinked to any of their test accounts they sure would have mentioned it in the OP. The devil wipes his breech with poor folks' pride. :D
 
Right, thanks for making my point for me.

Since you choose to play in a Private Group that prohibits PvP, then this issue wouldn't seem to affect you in any way - you neither have to use the method, nor are you affected by it. In fact, it's likely that you have little to no experience with the issue.

Yet, for some reason you still found it apt to stop in on this thread to proclaim that the issue has been blown out of proportion and is of little consequence.

It's very obvious that you're salty, and are trying to conceal that salt behind a facade of nonchalant dismissal.

You got blowed up once and now you can't let it go.

We got it. You can stop now.

Sorry, let me explain. I put it there as I don't play in Mobius. I apologise if my humour was over your head. Perhaps when you realise it's just a game and you're not so caught up in such a trivial issue you will be able to see.
 
There is an element of humour in a group who pride themselves on being as unpleasant as possible demanding players get punished for refusing to play with them.

It seems logical that, if you consider CL as a bad thing and people should be punished for it, then griefing and ganking should also be treated in a similar way based on the fact that a lot of people want to see that behaviour annihilated too.

A sample size of five in a population of players numbering in the tens of thousands is just and aberrant statistic and probably returns outliers rather than anything on a bell curve that does not fall into the +/-5% margin of error.

Not empirical, not science, just invalid.
 
It seems logical that, if you consider CL as a bad thing and people should be punished for it, then griefing and ganking should also be treated in a similar way based on the fact that a lot of people want to see that behaviour annihilated too.

A sample size of five in a population of players numbering in the tens of thousands is just and aberrant statistic and probably returns outliers rather than anything on a bell curve that does not fall into the +/-5% margin of error.

Not empirical, not science, just invalid.

That griefing and ganking you speak of is called gameplay.

Alt-f4 is not.
 
On an equally related note.. I don't play in Open and I don't engage in PVP.
I find PVP incredibly boring, a concept that blows minds regularly, but it's true. Combat in Elite, in general, is only about 20% interesting in the first place, so I get bored with it easy enough. Then add to that the complete lack of any sort of gains from PVP combat, and it shouldn't be hard to understand why I find it boring. Virtually no strategy is involved, there are no clever tricks, just massive over-engineering and META building, and finally top it off with my complete lack of interest in space politics and the BGS, and this is a zero-sum game from the word go.

But avoiding PVP isn't what keeps me out of Open. It's the fact that performance in Open is SO bad - rubber-banding, ships skipping across space like stones on a pond, split instancing, and a dash of self-important drama, and I want no part of it. I didn't come into Elite looking for an ideal space-combat-simulator. If that's all it had to offer, I'd have skipped right over it and just waited for No Man's Sky - and waiting for No Man's Sky is actually what got me in to playing Elite. I'm here for the galaxy. Other people are just filler.
 

Achilles7

Banned
This is really poor science!

Did someone call?

FW2VjL9h.jpg
 

Goose4291

Banned
That sounds like a lot more effort than it's worth, but then I never carry cargo.

Maybe they just have a report threshold before considering something worthy of putting in a fix and it finally tipped the balance, I don't think FDEV actively play favorites.

Are you saying me, taking a T-9 from a pickup station to a destination and sitting there, individually selling each tonne of my 500t cargo to impact the BGS would be more work than you flying to back and forth between the two stations with a full hold 500 times, to yield the same results?

giphy.gif
 
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Deleted member 115407

D
Sorry, let me explain. I put it there as I don't play in Mobius. I apologise if my humour was over your head. Perhaps when you realise it's just a game and you're not so caught up in such a trivial issue you will be able to see.

You don't play in Mobius... and yet your signature image is a big giant Mobius banner.

Ironic humor, I guess...
 
I would argue the standards applied are not the rule. The rule is simply no combat logging except by the menu. The 'standards' your talking about are not the rule, but the measures by which Frontier determines whether the rule has been broken - the metrics if you will. Transparency of those standards/methods exposes them to exploitation. Transparency of how many times the rule has been broken, punishment dished out and such would be welcomed, but not transparency of exactly how Frontier determines guilt or innocence. There are too many here who would, we know, then set about circumventing those standards if they were known precisely - past behaviours are evidence enough that such players and groups are inventive enough to do so.

I agree that any extra degree of transparency would be welcome in regards to anonymous data on transgressions/punishments. But I am opposed to black box justice for several reasons. Just on principle, if justice itself cannot be measured, then it is not justice. Yes any transparent system with tolerances could and would be exploited, but only to a breaking point. Implying that the rules can exploited to the point of being subverted completely means that the problem is one of technology and not one of rules/metrics. If their system of metrics could somehow account for the inherent flaws of janky P2P networking, then the degree of exploitation would be finite, and eventually justice would be served. Hence transparency and justice could coexist, and the exploitation of tolerance levels within a justice metric would only be marginal, since they are clearly already being abused, if blindly.
 
Whilst I don't approve of anybody pulling the plug midway through an encounter...do People genuinely WANT a software development company to be THAT involved in the trivia and minutia of people PLAYING the game, that they'll ACTUALLY intervene?
Crazy...game players can be idiots...it's a shame...move on...
DON'T expect Frontier to behave like "teacher" and make everybody "play nice" in the schoolyard or it's detentions all round!
Crazy...they're a real company staffed by real people with real things to do...not deal with this sort of nonsense...

What exactly are you asking, should a game company enforce their own rules? Yes of course they should. That is one of the critically important things that a 'real' online game company staffed by 'real people' should be doing if they expect to have any credibility whatsoever. It is in fact one of the things that most online game companies do as a matter of course.

As someone pointed out in another thread, just to give one example of how cheating (as defined by FDev themselves) is treated in other games, PUBG have banned one and a half million accounts for it. Not 'shadow banned' for three days, or sent a mild rebuke via e-mail, banned them. There are plenty of games where players who did something like the engineering exploit would have been eating a ban too; FDev's position on that was extremely generous.

You're talking like enforcing their own rules is some kind of imposition on their time that they might devote five minutes to if they don't have anything more important to do. That's a ridiculous point of view, do you do much gaming?

You can have whatever opinion you want about the rule itself, but there is no argument from a position of logic that having been set, a rule should not be enforced.

It's probably worth noting that there have been players who have had action taken against them in the form of warning e-mails and short shadow bans, we know that for certain because at least one player has posted the text of his e-mail about it on the forums.

It's also worth noting that we're never going to know definitively what proportion of people who do it get away with it, what proportion get a minor punishment and what proportion get a major one - that's the problem with experiments like the one here, no matter what had happened, in a game with over two million units shipped any single account is statistically insignificant. It could be that not one player received a ban, equally it could be that every account other than this one received a ban - neither of those extremes is likely, but there isn't really any way to know where the line falls between them. I get that it's frustrating but game companies generally don't reveal much about bans and punishments, it is what it is.

Edit: Also worth noting that in the list of play styles affected by combat logging in the OP there is of course one glaring omission:

Prime examples of gameplay styles that are hard-countered by combat logging include:

* PvP piracy
* Powerplay undermining defense/attacks
* Inter-faction warfare
* Player bounty hunting
* Hunting newbie-killers
* Blockades
* System protection
* Ganking and general salt-mining

and frankly, why not just say it because everybody knows it to be the case anyway.

However that is NOT in any way mitigation for combat logging, despite the fact that it's the most frequently declared reason for doing it. There are numerous legitimate ways to avoid that outcome and not liking the way another player plays the game within the rules isn't any kind of excuse for cheating.

Put simply, there is never an excuse for cheating and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't someone that I would ever want to game with.
 
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Are you saying me, taking a T-9 from a pickup station to a destination and sitting there, individually selling each tonne of my 500t cargo to impact the BGS would be more work than you flying to back and forth between the two stations with a full hold 500 times, to yield the same results?

https://media.giphy.com/media/mmsaFV5nXllw4/giphy.gif

Yes absolutely, I can barely stand moving poop from A to B just to unlock an engineer. Sitting there dragging out the selling process of trading sounds absolutely pants on head bonkers levels of self inflicted tedium. I don't doubt for a second that people did/do it I just think they are nuts.
 
I find PVP incredibly boring, a concept that blows minds regularly, but it's true. Combat in Elite, in general, is only about 20% interesting in the first place, so I get bored with it easy enough. Then add to that the complete lack of any sort of gains from PVP combat, and it shouldn't be hard to understand why I find it boring. Virtually no strategy is involved, there are no clever tricks, just massive over-engineering and META building
I'm neither an experienced PvPer nor a private group carebear, but this is complete balderdash. I've seen enough to know that a top tier fighter in a stock Viper would wreck me in an engineered one. To suggest there's no skill in PvP is just wrong. YOU may have no skill in it - I have very little - but many really, really do, whether or not they arrange fights, gank, griefer, provide emergent content or whatever.
 
I'm neither an experienced PvPer nor a private group carebear, but this is complete balderdash. I've seen enough to know that a top tier fighter in a stock Viper would wreck me in an engineered one. To suggest there's no skill in PvP is just wrong. YOU may have no skill in it - I have very little - but many really, really do, whether or not they arrange fights, gank, griefer, provide emergent content or whatever.

It would require an immense amount of skill to toss a coin 100 times and get it to come up heads every time.

That doesn't mean it'd be an enthralling pursuit to participate it.
 
So let me get this straight. PvP groups cheated for over a year with the Engineering exploit, griefed players with those illegally-obtained mods, and all that happened was that those specific mods were removed. The players who suffered losses from that griefing were never compensated in any way. Yet somehow these same PvP groups expect FD to "punish" players for combat logging when the game remains inherently unstable and actually "proving" that it was intentional rather than a game crash is not actually possible until the game stability issue are addressed.

Sorry, but if you cheat then you lose all credibility in asking FD to "enforce" certain rules for you when you couldn't follow the game rules yourself.

I think I have a meme for this.

https://i.imgur.com/VG1PfEo.jpg

+1
...
 
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