PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

Riverside

Riverside
Stigbob said:
Yep, they can raise the timer the important thing is immediate confirmation like you said, real life will always come first.
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Increasing the timer length acts as a disincentive to casually disconnect, but moving the confirmation allows those determined to disconnect to do so.

In an example of rage quitting (ie not stigbob's example) the quitting player probably would be psychologically better off if they don't have to sit & watch their ship get pounded to smithereens, they can just walk away & come back once they've calmed down a bit.

Should the player using the combat timer (for any reason) be forced to rejoin the mode they left? Increasing the timer also increases the likelihood of the player returning to a rebuy screen (where the ship is no longer in danger) but if they were not destroyed...
 

Kaocraft

Kaocraft
Riverside said:
So you're saying it would be an effective deterrent to using the timer, and that if anything, it is already. If it's not worth doing (ie high waking is preferable) then it's achieved it's goal.

The 15 sec timer is there to discourage you from just giving up. It's effectively saying 'you really should stay in the game until your ship is safe', but allowing you to leave anyway. Both you & Martian make good points here, there is no ideal solution.
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Personally I think the 15 second logout is just to add a layer of plausible deniability to accusations of Combat Logging. It makes it harder for the outside observer to identify a Combat Logger, because they can't be 100% sure if their target ghosting out of the game was done "gracefully" or not.

For the timer to be a legit legit part of the game rather than just a "lesser of two evils" form of Being a Bad Sport, it would have to be a "confirm first, wait later" menu choice rather than "watch the timer countdown until you can press quit", and the timer would have to be extendible by taking sustained fire. It would also be good if, when you pressed that "confirm" button, that it sent a message to your attacker saying "target is Logging out of game in 15 seconds" (or whatever amount of time).

As it stands now, the Menu Log timer doesn't even do it's main job, which is to allow someone who needs to get up and walk away from the game RIGHT NOW to do so. If the doorbell rings or a baby starts crying or you spill your drink on your lap or whatever, it's not that helpful to be trapped in front of your computer for an additional 15 seconds while you wait for the right to press the "quit" button.

TL;DR: let us click the quit button NOW, and then start the timer after we confirm.
 

Riverside

Riverside
Kaocraft said:
Personally I think the 15 second logout is just to add a layer of plausible deniability to accusations of Combat Logging. It makes it harder for the outside observer to identify a Combat Logger, because they can't be 100% sure if their target ghosting out of the game was done "gracefully" or not.

For the timer to be a legit legit part of the game rather than just a "lesser of two evils" form of Being a Bad Sport, it would have to be a "confirm first, wait later" menu choice rather than "watch the timer countdown until you can press quit", and the timer would have to be extendible by taking sustained fire. It would also be good if, when you pressed that "confirm" button, that it sent a message to your attacker saying "target is Logging out of game in 15 seconds" (or whatever amount of time).

As it stands now, the Menu Log timer doesn't even do it's main job, which is to allow someone who needs to get up and walk away from the game RIGHT NOW to do so. If the doorbell rings or a baby starts crying or you spill your drink on your lap or whatever, it's not that helpful to be trapped in front of your computer for an additional 15 seconds while you wait for the right to press the "quit" button.

TL;DR: let us click the quit button NOW, and then start the timer after we confirm.
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I almost entirely agree, except for the bit about extending the timer while under fire. I think the quitting player needs (for various potential RL reasons) to know how long it will take to exit the game (kids bedtime etc). I also think it would be a griefers dream to prevent another player from quitting, which would promote actual CLogging.

But yes, moving the confirmation to the start & having a cancel timer button does seem to solve a lot of problems with no real downside.

ETA You've clearly been talking a lot of sense recently Kaocraft, I'm currently out of rep for you :)
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
Riverside said:
I almost entirely agree, except for the bit about extending the timer while under fire. I think the quitting player needs (for various potential RL reasons) to know how long it will take to exit the game (kids bedtime etc). I also think it would be a griefers dream to prevent another player from quitting, which would promote actual CLogging.

But yes, moving the confirmation to the start & having a cancel timer button does seem to solve a lot of problems with no real downside.

ETA You've clearly been talking a lot of sense recently Kaocraft, I'm currently out of rep for you :)
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15 seconds is short. If I hit ESC as soon as the interdiction start, I’m out well before the time it takes to hi-wake.
I’m all for being able to quit quickly when RL calls, but it should not give a gameplay advantage.
Personally I try to go to a PG, when the risk of outside interference is high.
Still I don’t think I’ve played many RES sesions without using the 15sec timer. I hate that wait every time and would gladly have swaped it for 30sec with direct confirmation.
 

Kaocraft

Kaocraft
Riverside said:
I almost entirely agree, except for the bit about extending the timer while under fire. I think the quitting player needs (for various potential RL reasons) to know how long it will take to exit the game (kids bedtime etc). I also think it would be a griefers dream to prevent another player from quitting, which would promote actual CLogging.

But yes, moving the confirmation to the start & having a cancel timer button does seem to solve a lot of problems with no real downside.

ETA You've clearly been talking a lot of sense recently Kaocraft, I'm currently out of rep for you :)
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I guess I'm flexible on the timer reset whilst taking fire. The main thing is that whatever the precise configuration, menu Logging ought to be strategically a *worse* idea than hi-waking. The menu-log should be convenient and immediate (which is why I advocate for a confirm-first countdown), but more risky choice. Hi-waking should always be the "better" option for anyone who hasn't just had a personal emergency and needs to get AFK RIGHT NOW.

At the moment, menu Logging is as good as, or better than Hi-wake (certainly requires less foresight and skill under pressure), while ALSO being pretty inconvenient (still have to sit there for 15 seconds before you can click "quit", which is relatively short in videogame-dogfight time, but an eternity in spilled-coffee-on-the-desk time.)
 

Kaocraft

Kaocraft
Han_Zen said:
15 seconds is short. If I hit ESC as soon as the interdiction start, I’m out well before the time it takes to hi-wake.
I’m all for being able to quit quickly when RL calls, but it should not give a gameplay advantage.
Personally I try to go to a PG, when the risk of outside interference is high.
Still I don’t think I’ve played many RES sesions without using the 15sec timer. I hate that wait every time and would gladly have swaped it for 30sec with direct confirmation.
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Does that really work? I was under the impression you couldn't even get the menu to appear whilst being interdicted. It might just be that my computer is so slow that the menu take such a long time to load that the interdiction is always over by then.
 

RagingxPenguin

R
Wow, 115 pages and still completely ignored by FDev. Great job guys!


Yesterday, attempted to kill two wanted commanders, both logged. Wonderful.
 
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Stigbob

Stigbob
RagingxPenguin said:
Oh I know. This place is a graveyard. WHERE BAD THREADS ARE SENT TO DIIIIIIE
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It's not really dying though is it, if they wanted the thread to die they'd just shut it down.

The PVP sub-forum only exists because PVP'ers demanded one, after it's creation when it was new PVP'ers demanded that players they regard as non-PVP'ers be banned from posting in it and told them not to post here. So it's existence is down to pro-PVP'ers complaining and some posters here try to treat it as an exclusive members only club, if they want their views to reach a wider audience maybe they should avoid combining those two things.
 

RagingxPenguin

R
Stigbob said:
It's not really dying though is it, if they wanted the thread to die they'd just shut it down.

The PVP sub-forum only exists because PVP'ers demanded one, after it's creation when it was new PVP'ers demanded that players they regard as non-PVP'ers be banned from posting in it and told them not to post here. So it's existence is down to pro-PVP'ers complaining and some posters here try to treat it as an exclusive members only club, if they want their views to reach a wider audience maybe they should avoid combining those two things.
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Not certain of that. I'd feel different if the Devs actually responded to our concerns in here from time to time. They seem to be fairly active in other areas.

Healthy dialog is a good thing... Atleast I think it is.
 

Stigbob

Stigbob
RagingxPenguin said:
Not certain of that. I'd feel different if the Devs actually responded to our concerns in here from time to time. They seem to be fairly active in other areas.

Healthy dialog is a good thing... Atleast I think it is.
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The DEV's are unlikely to post in this thread, as there are people openly trying to use it to generate bad press for FDEV (with some limited success) there is a post from the community team though. No sensible DEV will touch this with a ten foot stick in case they find themselves being misquoted in the gaming press.

This isn't healthy dialogue, which is why they are not here.
 

Brrokk

Brrokk
Well, I've read much of this thread, first with interest and then with incredulity. It's 116 pages and that's just "part 2", so I don't think it can be said to have died. I think I remember that FD did respond too. Although it's a very long thread a summary of it can be quite short:-

OP claims they made 5 reports of simulated clogging at roughly monthly intervals but FD took no action.
Some way into the thread FD responded, along the lines, "We have ways to detect clogging, but we're not detailing them in case people find ways to get round them".
There are four possible explanations:
1. The 5 reports weren't really made, or it's untrue that FD took no action.
2. FD don't care about clogging or are inconsistent in their responses to it.
3. FD didn't think 5 times in 5 months warranted action.
4. FD correctly identified the reports as fake.
Which explanation you favour depends on your prior attitude to clogging, but some don't care about clogging enough to decide.

That's my precis of 116 pages. Did I miss anything?
 

missmartian

missmartian
An easy fix for the menu log for emergency reasons ie kids etc would be the same process but instead of having to wait 15 seconds to click yes to quit is just to allow the player click yes but a darkened screen where the game waits the 15 seconds. This way if the front door goes, a child is crying etc then the pilot can leave knowing that the game will quit automatically in 15 seconds. Personally if my child was crying I'd put them before a video game and I'd just leave my pc immediately regardless of whether or not I'm under fire but then I tend to prioritise real life over pixels whereas some don't.

Fixing the menu log would remove the people who combat log for emergency reasons.
 
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Han_Zen

Han_Zen
missmartian said:
An easy fix for the menu log for emergency reasons ie kids etc would be the same process but instead of having to wait 15 seconds to click yes to quit is just to allow the player click yes but a darkened screen where the game waits the 15 seconds. This way if the front door goes, a child is crying etc then the pilot can leave knowing that the game will quit automatically in 15 seconds. Personally if my child was crying I'd put them before a video game and I'd just leave my pc immediately regardless of whether or not I'm under fire but then I tend to prioritise real life over pixels whereas some don't.

Fixing the menu log would remove the people who combat log for emergency reasons.
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RL will always thump the game. If I'm in a real hurry, I just go FA-off, boost, boost, boost and leave the computer. Haven't died yet, using that method. I still want the direct confirmation though.
 

Han_Zen

Han_Zen
Kaocraft said:
Does that really work? I was under the impression you couldn't even get the menu to appear whilst being interdicted. It might just be that my computer is so slow that the menu take such a long time to load that the interdiction is always over by then.
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I haven't tried it. I just assumed it worked. It does work during the hyperspace tunnel, so I expected it be the same.

Now I have to test this on an NPC. [blah]
 

Marra Morgan

Marra Morgan
missmartian said:
An easy fix for the menu log for emergency reasons ie kids etc would be the same process but instead of having to wait 15 seconds to click yes to quit is just to allow the player click yes but a darkened screen where the game waits the 15 seconds. This way if the front door goes, a child is crying etc then the pilot can leave knowing that the game will quit automatically in 15 seconds. Personally if my child was crying I'd put them before a video game and I'd just leave my pc immediately regardless of whether or not I'm under fire but then I tend to prioritise real life over pixels whereas some don't.

Fixing the menu log would remove the people who combat log for emergency reasons.
Click to expand...

If it's an emergency, I really don't care about a video game.
 
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