Deleted member 115407
D
So where'd we land on this, again? We all decided that combat logging is bad, right?
PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2
- Thread starter Rinzler o7o7o7
- Start date
While it's certainly a tautology that people combat log more when they're in danger than when they're not, I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is?
People combat log against NPCs quite a bit, remember. Doesn't take that much searching to find people admitting to it. Have Frontier painted themselves into a corner by putting weapons on NPC ships?
Have a read of some of the earlier posts in this thread pointing out that some of the most prolific combat loggers are the exact gankers who'll happily go after an unarmed trader in their Corvette ... but log if anything with actual weapons interdicts them.
Stopping combat logging would allow considerably more effective self-policing by PvPers of gankers, because it might be practical to kill some of them occasionally.
It's not a case of "combat loggers = PvE traders" and "gankers = PvP combateers"
Good points but they only amplify the point I was making - you cannot address combat logging in isolation. It needs to be addressed in conjuction with ganking/griefing/player murder for the sake of it.
Which is exactly what Frontier have already stated they are addressing.
I'm finding it difficult to believe why addressing combat logging goes hand-in-hand with addressing indiscriminate player murder is so difficult for so many here to comprehend, as you all seem like reasonable and intelligent people. Mostly
Good points but they only amplify the point I was making - you cannot address combat logging in isolation. It needs to be addressed in conjuction with ganking/griefing/player murder for the sake of it.
Which is exactly what Frontier have already stated they are addressing.
I'm finding it difficult to believe why addressing combat logging goes hand-in-hand with addressing indiscriminate player murder is so difficult for so many here to comprehend, as you all seem like reasonable and intelligent people. Mostly
Because indiscriminate player killing is not cheating?
Oh I agree with you on that one - indiscriminate player killing is not cheating, but Frontier have acknowledged that whilst it's not cheating, it represents undesirable behaviour which in many cases can be not within the spirit of the game. Frontier's fault entirely, of course. Which again proves my point that Frontier can't address combat logging in isolation - it has to go hand-in-hand with discouraging some of the factors (e.g. indiscriminate player killing) which can cause some players to combat log.
Good points but they only amplify the point I was making - you cannot address combat logging in isolation. It needs to be addressed in conjuction with ganking/griefing/player murder for the sake of it.
Which is exactly what Frontier have already stated they are addressing.
I'm finding it difficult to believe why addressing combat logging goes hand-in-hand with addressing indiscriminate player murder is so difficult for so many here to comprehend, as you all seem like reasonable and intelligent people. Mostly
No you are comparing a cheat (combat logging) with intended game mechanic (PvP). Shooting other players ship and ganking them is intended.
Ganking other player's ships is "intended" only if you take a very narrow view of Frontier's advertising ("or just hunt other commanders"), and the non-existence of effective crime & punishment measures as the game currently stands.
If you look at the bigger picture, however, Frontier are working on...
Karma - will attempt to address combat logging
Crime & Punishment - will attempt to address indicscriminate ganking
Already working on it, and will be in the game sometime between now and later this year. Sure, indiscriminate ganking will still be a part of the game, but there's an active attempt underway to make the consequences for such more painful for those who do it.
So that's what I'm pointing out - Frontier are already in the process of addressing combat logging AND in-game actions like indiscriminate ganking.
See you all after two next years with same problem here
Yep we all agree on that, maybe not the baddest but certainly of the badesque persuasion.
Ok... I think I got what the problem is. It's not the credits you lose or win, but rather the balance of power etc for PP and BGS. Right? That's where the kill actually counts and a clog would avoid the count to the simulation. Loss of credits is a minor since it's so easy to make money in the game anyway, and if we're talking about the ethical issue, then... well, there are other very unethical things going on in the game (like ramming at CG stations and preventing players to complete the CG mission) that we just have to accept in the game since it's just digital bits in a computer and not real life. But I do see that it could be an issue if PP and BGS is affected by it.
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Goose4291
Banned
They are, but as people constantly say in all the mode exploit discussion threads, there's only one opinion that matters, and that's FDevs.
Except that a player can prevent a high-wake by slapping their target with either a Grom missile or one of those engineered FSD interrupt dumbfires, whereas you can't prevent someone from combat-logging
Well as an predominately open trader, I think we can cross those hyperbolic bridges when we come to them. At least it'll give us something new to discuss.
In which case they should conceed that for clarity, rather than mumbling incoherently about super-secret ways of knowing if a disconnect is legitimate or not.
What was this loophole, because all I saw of the so called 'crime and punishment' overhaul was a plan to deploy the 'rocks fall and kill all the party' approach used by bad DM's when their players aren't towing the line in D&D.
Much like any other exploit, it seems to be dependent on who does it still Vin.
Even more hillariously are the ones who paint themselves as 'badass smuggler' types in all their flowery RP posts who combat log when they're getting scanned
It seems to me like this is just another way to legitimize ungraceful disconnects: you tried to kill me for no good reason so I'm free to reply by task killing!
It's not ok to task kill on someone who is trying to murder you for no apparent reason; it's cheating, plain and simple. The two cases bear no technical similarities, nor are they intertwined in the manner you endorse; it's perfectly fine for me to try to destroy another CMDR for no better reason than I didn't like the look of their paint job, but it's a filthy case of outright cheating if they clog on me while I'm doing it. It really is as simple as that. Karma and C&P is a gameplay issue where the punishments will be rooted in the lore of the game world, while cheating is a technical issue where the punishments and provisions will be rooted in the real world. I've said several times that I have a problem with so many people coming out in favor/support of clogging in this thread, and it comes from having to explain stuff like this that really does it for me.
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Yeah. I agree with that. It's not worse then high-wake.
Yup. There's a thread where someone complains that other player have too strong shields so they can't be destroyed in the CG. And I've seen some posts in the past with players arguing that blocking should be removed, and we constantly see posts about "remove Solo/PG, only Open" at least once a week.
And since it's just bits in a computer, who should really care if someone clogs or not. It's not like it's real life. It's just a game.
I used to get really upset about griefers and gankers and all the crap going on at CGs, but I learned to live with it. Now, perhaps it's time for PvP players to learn to live with the cloggers.
I dont see a problem with combat logging. Its like surrendering. The only fun which is not available for the winner is to destroy the other player. This shouldnt be fun.
I support to do nothing from the DEV side!
I support to do nothing from the DEV side!
Nah I disagree with you. I still maintain that you cannot address combat logging in isolation. Combat logging is a gameplay issue - as has been pointed out in this very thread as one of the justifications for stamping it out (can affect BGS/PP). Along with indiscriminate player killing (which Frontier have stated can be considered in many situations as being against the spirit of the game). Both have been issues causing threads like these on every forum connected to a multi-player game, and for years.
It's especially horrible in Elite: Dangerous, because for one, there are next to no consequences for endlessly murdering other players Just Because - such being a factor in causing some players to combat log whether it's a legal move or not (it's not, of course. I think 99.9% of people agree with that.) C&P is going to be more of an in-game thing, and Karma is more for policing the technical issues like combat logging.
Anyway - I reckon this thread has been created WAY too soon. I reckon we just have to wait and see what Frontier comes up with, with Karma & C&P, then react to that.
How will karma help to combat clogging? I've read from FD's proposals that karma will try to curtail mass player killing sprees by giving the killer unshakeable global bad karma points, which is a good step forward but have FD actually stated that karma will attempt to punish combat logging?
Perhaps then we should have the NPCs start combat logging too? Not all the time - just when they're losing. Everyone says they want more realistic NPCs.
(I did have an NPC combat log on me mid-interdiction, once)
Karma is for handling the 'technical, out of game' behaviour like combat logging.
Crime & Punishment is the one which will be handling mass player killing behaviour.
I'll try to search the forum for the relevant bits of info.
So you are basically condoning the use of a cheat. Good to know. Perhaps you need educating on the many ways cheating via combat logging affects the game as a whole:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398295-It-s-Totally-Fine-to-Task-Kill-on-Thargoids
Sure. The NPCs are ramming players at the stations already, just like players, so why not.
The NPCs used to low-wake and come back within 5 seconds with fully repaired hulls, so it's not much different.
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