An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Ozram]

cheat
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.




I'm discussing the topic at hand; you are discussing "what do words mean", in a failing effort to win the debate by changing, or challenging, the grammar used in the discussion.

Definition of terms is important in any contentious discussion. In this instance, the only official word used to describe CL is "exploit" which has been quickly replaced by the word "cheat". The implications are somewhat different and so unless all agree to this being an accurate synonym, the discussion cannot reasonably move forward.
I think then, that discussing "what words mean" is quite valid here unless you are willing to forgo the use of the word "cheat" and revert back to "exploit".

 

[JerryLove]

cheat
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

OK. How is combat logging dishonest or unfair?

Assuming you don't lie about it it doesn't seem dishonest.
Since everyone can do it, it's not unfair.

I'm discussing the topic at hand; you are discussing "what do words mean", in a failing effort to win the debate by changing, or challenging, the grammar used in the discussion.

Now you are starting a meta-discussion. I assumed what someone meant and was told I was misinterpreting. So I've asked what they meant... repeatedly. Now people are critical of that?

Above is the first time someone has put up a definition. The problem is: "Combat logging" is not "cheating" by your chosen definition.

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Definition of terms is important in any contentious discussion.

Dude! I keep being unable to give you more rep. You need to post less on-the-nose rep-able stuff

 

[Ozram]

OK. How is combat logging dishonest or unfair?

Assuming you don't lie about it it doesn't seem dishonest.
Since everyone can do it, it's not unfair.


Now you are starting a meta-discussion. I assumed what someone meant and was told I was misinterpreting. So I've asked what they meant... repeatedly. Now people are critical of that?

Above is the first time someone has put up a definition. The problem is: "Combat logging" is not "cheating" by your chosen definition.

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Dude! I keep being unable to give you more rep. You need to post less on-the-nose rep-able stuff

Ditto!

 

[TheDayman]

"Dude looks like a lady, yeah yeah, dude looks like a lady".

 

[Red Anders]

Have not been to much game forums, have we?

I've been to plenty, never been to one where around two thirds of the player base not only think it's fine to do something which the devs have made abundantly clear they consider to be against the rules but actually defend what they perceive as being their right to do it on the back of any number of justifications which basically amount to 'I'm so special the rules just don't apply to me.' Not one.

I also gave up on this thread last week. Sadly it wasn't providing entertainment for me as it clearly is with some others; I was pretty much appalled by some of the genuinely pathetic stuff I read. Note, I'm using the word 'pathetic' in its literal sense there.

 

[Sugarat]

Hey guys, you've probably seen but I did post a reply on Reddit.

Here's the details.

===

"Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

First of all, I would like to take a moment to assure you that combat logging is against the rules and it’s something that we actively review and action on a regular basis. We have internal processes which we follow to ensure that the reviews are dealt with in a fair and thorough way. We use a number of data points and telemetry to help guide our decision and every report is treated on a case by case basis. There are a number of factors included in that process but we don’t share details of how we action rule breakers as this would give people an advantage in circumventing those checks, should someone be inclined to do so.

However, after looking into the reports that you’ve highlighted here and taking a moment to review them in more detail I can confirm that on this occasion we didn’t follow the processes that we set out and subsequently these reports were not actioned. While we don’t tend to talk about individual reports (even ones like this) we feel that it’s important to give you an open, honest and transparent answer to your post. I must stress that this is absolutely not typical of our standard review and reporting process and this mistake was completely unintentional.

I would like to apologise for the error and thank you for bringing it to our attention. By doing so you’ve helped us to review and make improvements to our existing process which lets us deliver the best possible support for our community.

I also want to add though that reports are still very important to us. We have hundreds of thousands of Commanders playing and while cheating and rule breaking is very small within the Elite Dangerous community it is still something that we do review and take very seriously. Please do continue to submit reports of rule breaking with as much detail as possible and we will endeavour to review these and take action where needed. "

Definition of terms is important in any contentious discussion. In this instance, the only official word used to describe CL is "exploit" which has been quickly replaced by the word "cheat". The implications are somewhat different and so unless all agree to this being an accurate synonym, the discussion cannot reasonably move forward.
I think then, that discussing "what words mean" is quite valid here unless you are willing to forgo the use of the word "cheat" and revert back to "exploit".

OK. How is combat logging dishonest or unfair?

Assuming you don't lie about it it doesn't seem dishonest.
Since everyone can do it, it's not unfair.


Now you are starting a meta-discussion. I assumed what someone meant and was told I was misinterpreting. So I've asked what they meant... repeatedly. Now people are critical of that?

Above is the first time someone has put up a definition. The problem is: "Combat logging" is not "cheating" by your chosen definition.

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Dude! I keep being unable to give you more rep. You need to post less on-the-nose rep-able stuff

I think the official FD response makes it pretty clear it's cheating.. semantics aside.

 

[Ozram]

I think the official FD response makes it pretty clear it's cheating.. semantics aside.

You may think so but you have to defend your position because it is neither universally agreed upon nor is it officially supported. Semantics front and centre.
If you don't wish to have that discussion then revert to calling it "exploit".

 

[Sugarat]

You may think so but you have to defend your position because it is neither universally agreed upon nor is it officially supported. Semantics front and centre.
If you don't wish to have that discussion then revert to calling it "exploit".

Take it to FD.. it's their position..

.. personally I believe rule breaking is cheating, if you don't then fine

 

[Ozram]

Take it to FD.. it's their position..

.. personally I believe rule breaking is cheating, if you don't then fine

That's what I'm saying. It is not their position. Their position is that it is an exploit.

 

[Mohrgan]

Take it to FD.. it's their position..

.. personally I believe rule breaking is cheating, if you don't then fine

Do you find Mode Switching to refresh the Mission Board cheating? Do you think using the Bandwidth command to act as a Commander detector is cheating? Do you think stacking missions to get payed off for a number of missions, while only really completing the longest cheating? If you look at what is fundamentally happening these things aren't much different than CL'ing. But, people hardly complain about those. Combat Logging, when you can actually find a real case of it, is just vilified because of those it happens to. The loudest, most entitled players in the game. It's, overall game wide, a non-issue.

The Boogeyman of Combat Logging is just as pumped full of nonsense as the Boogeyman of Greifing.

 

[Sugarat]

That's what I'm saying. It is not their position. Their position is that it is an exploit.

Call it what you like.. FD care enough to state it's against the rules and to state they take it seriously enough to take action over.. that's good enough for me

 

[Ozram]

Call it what you like.. FD care enough to state it's against the rules and to state they take it seriously enough to take action over.. that's good enough for me

It's not a matter of calling it what I like. It's a matter of calling it by the only official title it's been given.

 

[JerryLove]

I think the official FD response makes it pretty clear it's cheating.. semantics aside.

I disagree with your implication that this is a semantic argument.

Let's try your definition "It's cheating if the dev says it's cheating".

I've actually already addressed that. Imagine tomorrow that Blizzards says "using weapons in Diablo is cheating". Does that mean using weapons in Diablo has "ruined the game"?

The actual point of contention is not whether Combat Logging is cheating; but more weather it is "bad".

A poster justified his claim that CLing is "bad" by saying "Multiplayer cheating, if nothing is done about it, ruins that game, every time."

I argued that claim was wrong; he said I deliberately misinterpreted "cheating", I asked what he actually meant by "cheating" then, he blocked me, other people chimed in.

 

[Sugarat]

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Ok.. this is why I refrain (usually) from posting here nowadays..

Obviously lot's of people feel strongly about this but, for me, it's clear.. combat logging is "against the rules" and is punishable within the ToS.. for me that is enough to say it's cheating..

Obviously you guys believe strongly that it isn't, or at least that it is defensible..

Either way, no matter what any of us think, it's FD's position that matters.. convincing me to think differently changes nothing.. it's FD's call, and they've made it, several times

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm going to go with unsportsmanlike behaviour. Which is sexist.
So, unsportshumanlike behaviour. Racist.
Damnit. Unsportsentitylike behaviour.
Yeah?
Sweet!
Ok. Combat logging is unsportsentitylike behaviour and should be frowned upon. Severely frowned upon. Maybe we could get Michelangelo Brooks to frown upon it. I take him for a fierce frowner. I'd not like to meet his gaze when telling him I missed a deadline.

 

[JerryLove]

Either way, no matter what any of us think, it's FD's position that matters.. convincing me to think differently changes nothing.. it's FD's call, and they've made it, several times

Not so much in regards to the discussion I was having but sure. I agree that your statement is correct for the discussion you are having.

Per the OP. FD's position is to say "don't do it" and then proceed to tacitly OK it by ignoring all reports of it.

 

[Ozram]

Ok.. this is why I refrain (usually) from posting here nowadays..

Obviously lot's of people feel strongly about this but, for me, it's clear.. combat logging is "against the rules" and is punishable within the ToS.. for me that is enough to say it's cheating..

Obviously you guys believe strongly that it isn't, or at least that it is defensible..

Either way, no matter what any of us think, it's FD's position that matters.. convincing me to think differently changes nothing.. it's FD's call, and they've made it, several times

You're now shifting the goalposts. You and I were discussing the word cheating. The "clear" position by fd is that it is an exploit they do not like and are willing to take action against. Just change your use of the word cheat to exploit and suddenly you have a case.
I may, as you say, not find it objectionable, but that's a different matter. I'm happy to discuss that as well but let's not confuse the two.

 

[thorn-]

The actual point of contention is not whether Combat Logging is cheating; but more weather it is "bad".

So you aren't arguing semantics; you're arguing if cheating is bad.

Brilliant.

 

[Sugarat]

You're now shifting the goalposts. You and I were discussing the word cheating. The "clear" position by fd is that it is an exploit they do not like and are willing to take action against. Just change your use of the word cheat to exploit and suddenly you have a case.
I may, as you say, not find it objectionable, but that's a different matter. I'm happy to discuss that as well but let's not confuse the two.

I used the word cheating.. you want to discuss it's definition, I don't.

Shifting goalposts? No, but if you want to see it that way..

 

[Ozram]

I used the word cheating.. you want to discuss it's definition, I don't.

Shifting goalposts? No, but if you want to see it that way..

Again, it isn't about what I want. Reread it if it continues to befuddle you.