Modes An old gripe, revisited... [apologies]

[AP Birdman]

Well, it's a game. Ultimately, there's no reason to do anything in it unless you want to, so that problem isn't restricted to PvP.

Every other type of play that needs more than one person (fighting Thargoids, BGS play, large expeditions, etc.) gets organised by the people who want to do it. Why do PvPers think their play should be organised for them and a "reason" for it should be made up by someone else?

Are you suggesting that they don't shoot at players uninterested in PvP? The DG2 weekly report suggests otherwise....

You have Open. What more do you need?

Solo doesn't have the benefit of help from other players, no "Wings", etc. Players must simply fend for themselves.
Private Groups is restricted to a maximum limit, and there's no tools to explicitly customize rulesets.

You've got complete freedom to do whatever you wish... are you saying that's too much?

Perhaps Frontier really does need to have a look at that. Perhaps more limitations are needed for Open, after all.

I'm talking more along the lines of having actual teams, reasons to fight each other, rewards, ect.
We do a lot to organize ourselves, right now there's a bit of a war between CLB, IED, and the 75th vs FFL and DRTY Co but it's kinda pointless. It would be nice to have actual, in-game reasons and rewards to go to war with each other and doing bgs stuff is just boring. Running cargo to "PvP" with each other is just lame.

I know "player vs player" might be hard for some of you to understand but trust me when I say we're pretty bored with coming up with reasons to fight each other that only ends up in losing money to rebuys, then having your system bgs messed up for a week.

We do a pretty good job at organizing ourselves and start wars with each other but it's rare when it all comes together and it would be nice if Fdev gave us an actual in-game reason for all of this. And a way to earn back some of the money we lose to rebuys would be nice too.

I'm talking about real, consensualish PvP wars. I'm talking about team A vs team B and having actual rewards and consequences

 

[Jockey79]

I'm talking more along the lines of having actual teams, reasons to fight each other, rewards, ect.
We do a lot to organize ourselves, right now there's a bit of a war between CLB, IED, and the 75th vs FFL and DRTY Co but it's kinda pointless. It would be nice to have actual, in-game reasons and rewards to go to war with each other and doing bgs stuff is just boring. Running cargo to "PvP" with each other is just lame.

I know "player vs player" might be hard for some of you to understand but trust me when I say we're pretty bored with coming up with reasons to fight each other that only ends up in losing money to rebuys, then having your system bgs messed up for a week.

We do a pretty good job at organizing ourselves and start wars with each other but it's rare when it all comes together and it would be nice if Fdev gave us an actual in-game reason for all of this. And a way to earn back some of the money we lose to rebuys would be nice too.

I'm talking about real, consensualish PvP wars. I'm talking about team A vs team B and having actual rewards and consequences

Not heard of Power Play then?

It's a great system where PvP'ers can play in Open and have in game reasons to shoot each other and get rewards for it.
While at the same time, you can coordinate with people who don't PvP so they can play in Solo and PGs to help you out with supporting PvE activities.
And every Thursday (UK) the consequences of those actions are shown with how the PP tables change.

It's amazing Frontier found a way to bring PvP and PvE together with common goals of supporting an NPC power through PvE grind and through PvP pew pew.

 

[Sylveria]

I'm talking more along the lines of having actual teams, reasons to fight each other, rewards, ect.
We do a lot to organize ourselves, right now there's a bit of a war between CLB, IED, and the 75th vs FFL and DRTY Co but it's kinda pointless. It would be nice to have actual, in-game reasons and rewards to go to war with each other and doing bgs stuff is just boring. Running cargo to "PvP" with each other is just lame.

I know "player vs player" might be hard for some of you to understand but trust me when I say we're pretty bored with coming up with reasons to fight each other that only ends up in losing money to rebuys, then having your system bgs messed up for a week.

We do a pretty good job at organizing ourselves and start wars with each other but it's rare when it all comes together and it would be nice if Fdev gave us an actual in-game reason for all of this. And a way to earn back some of the money we lose to rebuys would be nice too.

I'm talking about real, consensualish PvP wars. I'm talking about team A vs team B and having actual rewards and consequences

Player vs Player isn't "bad" for me. I've done it many times, for years in other games. I just got completely burned out on it. Just not my cup of tea anymore.

My point is, players in Solo nor Private Groups need "incentive" or "special rewards" in order to motivate themselves to play. They play for their own enjoyment, as should you or anyone else who plays. Player vs Player is about that thrill of the hunt, besting a worthy opponent. Not shooting unarmed traders because you're "bored" and can't motivate yourself to do anything else.

If you're that "bored" then perhaps it's time to take a break- before you get like I did and end up totally disgusted with PvP as an idea and realize it's all just repetitive mindless killing and there's really no "outcome" other than a temporary ego boost. Trust me, it really doesn't last.

As far as the consensualish wars go- that can still happen, if both "teams" are motivated enough to want to organize and do it. In EVE online it happens all the time. I know, because I actually took part in some of them in nullsec, etc. (TiDi is another PITA but I won't go into that...)

Problem with this game isn't "solo/pg players" it's the network code. You're not going to have those epic battles with hundreds of players fighting each other in the same area.

Your "battle" isn't with the "modes" my friend... it's with Frontier's choice of netcode.

 

[AP Birdman]

Player vs Player isn't "bad" for me. I've done it many times, for years in other games. I just got completely burned out on it. Just not my cup of tea anymore.

My point is, players in Solo nor Private Groups need "incentive" or "special rewards" in order to motivate themselves to play. They play for their own enjoyment, as should you or anyone else who plays. Player vs Player is about that thrill of the hunt, besting a worthy opponent. Not shooting unarmed traders because you're "bored" and can't motivate yourself to do anything else.

If you're that "bored" then perhaps it's time to take a break- before you get like I did and end up totally disgusted with PvP as an idea and realize it's all just repetitive mindless killing and there's really no "outcome" other than a temporary ego boost. Trust me, it really doesn't last.

As far as the consensualish wars go- that can still happen, if both "teams" are motivated enough to want to organize and do it. In EVE online it happens all the time. I know, because I actually took part in some of them in nullsec, etc. (TiDi is another PITA but I won't go into that...)

Problem with this game isn't "solo/pg players" it's the network code. You're not going to have those epic battles with hundreds of players fighting each other in the same area.

Your "battle" isn't with the "modes" my friend... it's with Frontier's choice of netcode.

Players in solo/pg don't need incentives or special rewards? So you're telling me that there's no rewards or incentives for exploration or mining or running cargo? Because last I checked, thats the most rewarding gameplay in the game.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Players in solo/pg don't need incentives or special rewards? So you're telling me that there's no rewards or incentives for exploration or mining or running cargo? Because last I checked, thats the most rewarding gameplay in the game.

Those activities pay the same in any game mode - so no mode incentive is involved....

 

[Jockey79]

Players in solo/pg don't need incentives or special rewards? So you're telling me that there's no rewards or incentives for exploration or mining or running cargo? Because last I checked, thats the most rewarding gameplay in the game.

No special rewards for playing Solo.
The social aspect of PGs also available in Open.
So you get nothing extra in Solo / PG

In fact PvP'ers keep saying Open has "extra risks" - so according to you lot, Open already has an incentive, that heart pumping adrenaline rush you want.

So why should Open get more incentives for you to use it?

 

[AP Birdman]

Those activities pay the same in any game mode - so no mode incentive is involved....

I wasn't referring to modes. Sorry I was changing the subject. I was just talking about PvP in general vs every other activity in elite, regardless of mode. Sorry, back on topic.

 

[Sylveria]

I wasn't referring to modes. Sorry I was changing the subject. I was just talking about PvP in general vs every other activity in elite, regardless of mode. Sorry, back on topic.

I get what you're saying - but every activity cannot simply be divided into "PvP and PvE" subtypes. Try it. Think about everything you can do in the game, then make two categories- some of which activities may fall into both, but I can guarantee you "PvP" just isn't going to fit for some activities. Not everything is meant to be a competition, or can be made competitive, for that matter.

EVE Online did this, somewhat- but even in that game the whole "everything in the game is about PvP" doesn't quite jibe. The only reason anyone has to attribute PvE activities like "trading" or "missions" to the Everyone Vs Everyone narrative, is because the entire game is based on a complete player economy. Players have blueprints to manufacture (almost) everything that exists in the game- aside from specifically controlled elements by CCP. Mining produces materials that are used in manufacturing of player's ships, etc.

It was wholly intended to be that way- so that the players "own" the economy. So yeah, the "isk" you make doing missions, the cargo hauling, etc. actually has a direct relation to the overall game economy- because it was intended to be that way.

This one just wasn't intended to be that way. And there's no way for them to completely overhaul the game to cater specifically to that, either.

 

[AP Birdman]

I get what you're saying - but every activity cannot simply be divided into "PvP and PvE" subtypes. Try it. Think about everything you can do in the game, then make two categories- some of which activities may fall into both, but I can guarantee you "PvP" just isn't going to fit for some activities. Not everything is meant to be a competition, or can be made competitive, for that matter.

EVE Online did this, somewhat- but even in that game the whole "everything in the game is about PvP" doesn't quite jibe. The only reason anyone has to attribute PvE activities like "trading" or "missions" to the Everyone Vs Everyone narrative, is because the entire game is based on a complete player economy. Players have blueprints to manufacture (almost) everything that exists in the game- aside from specifically controlled elements by CCP. Mining produces materials that are used in manufacturing of player's ships, etc.

It was wholly intended to be that way- so that the players "own" the economy. So yeah, the "isk" you make doing missions, the cargo hauling, etc. actually has a direct relation to the overall game economy- because it was intended to be that way.

This one just wasn't intended to be that way. And there's no way for them to completely overhaul the game to cater specifically to that, either.

All I'm saying is that I wish Fdev would give us some kind of incentive for PvP.
These massive bgs/PvP battles that I've taken part in are a blast. 14 guys in an instance, all battling each other, is some of the most enjoyable gameplay I've ever experienced in a video game. But at the end of the day/battle it's pointless. No matter who won battle, it has no effect on the bgs or anything for that matter. We're just fight each other for bragging rights and that's really lame.
Imagine if exploration gave zero rewards, didn't put your name on anything and the entire galaxy of ED was just the same 6 planet types over and over again. It would get pretty boring after a while and no one but a "hardcore" few would continue doing it. That's basically what has happened to PvP.

 

[Mouse]

All I'm saying is that I wish Fdev would give us some kind of incentive for PvP.
These massive bgs/PvP battles that I've taken part in are a blast. 14 guys in an instance, all battling each other, is some of the most enjoyable gameplay I've ever experienced in a video game. But at the end of the day/battle it's pointless. No matter who won battle, it has no effect on the bgs or anything for that matter. We're just fight each other for bragging rights and that's really lame.
Imagine if exploration gave zero rewards, didn't put your name on anything and the entire galaxy of ED was just the same 6 planet types over and over again. It would get pretty boring after a while and no one but a "hardcore" few would continue doing it. That's basically what has happened to PvP.

Well for many exploration is the same planet types over and over again and don't get to put their names on anything as they have already been found. In a sense it is the same as PVP in that regards. When the game was new PVP meant more... but those few who decided to abuse it put their "name" on it and you have what it is now. I have suggested before, merits for PP and such. But a commander can only earn a merit from a "victim" once an half hour or an hour or so.. that way you can't "farm" the merits.. you get your kill and a merit and go looking for other targets to get a merit. If you run into that same commander you killed earlier and the hour is up you can get another merit for defeating them.. if not then there is no point in attacking them and you search for other targets.

 

[Jockey79]

Imagine if exploration gave zero rewards, didn't put your name on anything and the entire galaxy of ED was just the same 6 planet types over and over again. It would get pretty boring after a while and no one but a "hardcore" few would continue doing it. That's basically what has happened to PvP.

I do A-B-A trading in my Cutter, Haz-RES bounty farming in my Corvette or core mining in my Anaconda.

I don't get to put my name on anything, I get to see the same few stations over and over or I get to see the same asteroid types over and over.
I think I know every bit of dialogue the NPCs will use in combat and exactly how they will move in the fight.

I don't need the money, I have all the ships I want with plenty of rebuy.
So why do I do it? Because I enjoy it. I find it relaxing and fun.

If you enjoy PvP so much, why do you need any "incentives" to do it?
Why can you not do it because you enjoy it?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Imagine if exploration gave zero rewards, didn't put your name on anything and the entire galaxy of ED was just the same 6 planet types over and over again. It would get pretty boring after a while and no one but a "hardcore" few would continue doing it.

So basically Exploration in Frontier: First Encounters.

Yeah, i did that, although the requirement of getting your hyperdrive serviced every year meant you needed to either cheat or limit your trips into the black.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Folks getting hurt, complain. Which is why we have Modes in the first place.

The first one who complained was David Braben. So he decided to make a game which included modes.

 

[Darkfyre99]

All I'm saying is that I wish Fdev would give us some kind of incentive for PvP.
These massive bgs/PvP battles that I've taken part in are a blast. 14 guys in an instance, all battling each other, is some of the most enjoyable gameplay I've ever experienced in a video game. But at the end of the day/battle it's pointless. No matter who won battle, it has no effect on the bgs or anything for that matter. We're just fight each other for bragging rights and that's really lame.

IMO that does sound interesting, which is one of the reasons I play primarily in Open, despite getting no reward for doing so. The problem, as Frontier quickly found out with PvP bounties and Powerplay Merits, is one of collusion: two players, or groups of players, deciding its far easier to help each other achieve their goals by throwing fights than it is to do it the “hard way. (aka PvE).

Stopping collusion requires development resources, resources which could be spent on aspects of the game that benefit the entire playerbase, like atmospheric worlds, earthlike worlds, or Elite Feet. I’d like to see that added to the game to be honest, but not before the things I listed, along with specialized rules for modes, including Ironman Mode.

Imagine if exploration gave zero rewards, didn't put your name on anything and the entire galaxy of ED was just the same 6 planet types over and over again. It would get pretty boring after a while and no one but a "hardcore" few would continue doing it. That's basically what has happened to PvP.

I spent twenty minutes exploring a system via flyby yesterday simply for the fish. I could’ve done it in three purely via FSS, but the system was interesting enough to fly through it for fun.

 

[Dietger]

The first one who complained was David Braben. So he decided to make a game which included modes.

Frontier foresaw many things. Our Disput here is one of those I think.

 

[Jockey79]

The first one who complained was David Braben. So he decided to make a game which included modes.

Funny how in an interview he pointed out that, should he play Open mode he spends the entire time getting killed by players.
And as he is an explorer and enjoys the peaceful side of the game, he has to play in PGs or Solo.

He also said he sees Elite: Dangerous as a co-op game (as opposed to a PvP game, which was the question he was answering with this comment).
So all these people talking about how important PvP is need to stop killing the CEO of the company if they want to convince him it's used for more than ganking.

(This post isn't aimed at you Ziggy, just to be clear. I know you know all of this, I'm just bouncing off your post to highlight some things for others)

 

[Roybe]

I'm sorry, but as a native English speaker his meaning was clear, and correctly phrased. If you still have anyone helping you to learn you might like to discuss it with them; sadly while I have many skills, "teacher" is not among them.

Speaking English badly, does not excuse poor syntax, structure or word choice.

 

[Jockey79]

I'm sorry, but as a native English speaker his meaning was clear, and correctly phrased. If you still have anyone helping you to learn you might like to discuss it with them; sadly while I have many skills, "teacher" is not among them.

I ran this sentence through Grammarly and it cried.
Perhaps if you are going to pick on a none native English speaker, you should know what you are doing with the language first.

Pop over to Grammarly and install the browser extension, it will catch all your errors so you don't look stupid when pointing out other peoples mistakes.

Oh, FYI, the post you quoted has one less error than your own. So SenseiMatty is, in fact, better at English than you are.

http://www.grammarly.com/

 

[XanderVekk]

The reasons for wanting player influenced BGS to only have effect in open, is that other players should have the right to interfere with your BGS actions if they disagree with them.

Otherwise, player BGS competition becomes a boring PG grind fest where you fight an invisible enemy, and the winner is determined by who has the most people living in their mother's basement eating microwave top ramen. Or by who has the most BOTS running, ruining your player named BGS faction while unable to stop it (ask AEDC about that one).

What does it matter? It's not just bragging rights, BGS affects how many power play fortification materials need to be hauled every cycle. Having to haul double isn't fun, especially when it's to invisible players that cannot be reached on any platform in open. Or bots.

Also? Sometimes you fight a BGS war to take a stand on something. We had a situation where a friendly LGBT player faction was being harassed in game by some fool who named his ship with homophobic slurs. The Empire will not tolerate that. Period. Lavigny's Legion stepped in and helped them recover influence, but sadly the antagonist decided to switch his nefarious activity to solo when suddenly confronted with ridiculously overwhelming odds. We would have loved to get our hands on him and hand him a rebuy. Or seven.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The reasons for wanting player influenced BGS to only have effect in open, is that other players should have the right to interfere with your BGS actions if they disagree with them.

Players only have the right to interfere with the gameplay of players who choose to play in Open or the same Private Group (depending on Private Group rules that members agree to on joining, of course) - both of which are optional, just as PvP is optional in this game, by design.

The BGS, on the other hand, is and has always has been for all players to both experience and affect, regardless of game mode - as recently restated by Frontier in the Background Simulation and Scenarios stream and the follow-up recap thread.