Another request to balance chaff units

Why do you need to distinguish between PvE and PvP layout? And doesn't this instantly mean that should a player with your proposed PvE layout, be interedicted by a PvP layout player, he's at a possible needless disadvantage?

Now just for one moment consider the following two changes, and imagine it ingame, and see what you recon:-
1) Gimbals and fixed are unified into a single weapon. You flick between firing it in gimballed mode (exactly like current gimbals), or fixed (exactly like current fixed). Gimbals are maybe reduced down a tad in the amount of damage they do, and the size of their firing arc too.
2) The gimbal damage is reduced the greater the angle its firing at.

Out of interest, put yourself through some imaginary scenarios... What problems do you see?

Now bring chaff into this? Hasn't this proposal help balance the chaff spam issue?


No really i haven't any pb about we need 2 differents fiit PVE and PVP "spécialized" fitt.
If i'm going to duck hunt, i m taking my rifle and my dog, if i m going at war, i m taking my assault rifle, my body armor, grenades, and all my fk### needed equipment !

In fact, i really think you are talking about a "non problem" here in this post... Cause you can think it's good or not, but it work fine and i think it's time to beggin to play with toys we have and stop dreaming about new toys...
 
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No really i haven't any pb about we need 2 differents fiit PVE and PVP "spécialized" fitt.
If i'm going to duck hunt, i m taking my rifle and my dog, if i m going at war, i m taking my assault rifle, my body armor, grenades, and all my fk### needed equipment !

In fact, i really think you are talking about a "non problem" here in this post... Cause you can think it's good or not, but it work fine and i think it's time to beggin to play with toys we have and stop dreaming about new toys...

Fair enough... I think people are so used to the oddities and mechanics (and limitations), they just look past them now...

It is interesting you didn't state a single reason why that proposal would introduce any problems, even though that was the question asked. I'm still interested if want to bring a scenario up where the proposal would reduce playability/skill/variety... and not infact mean more variety and even help with the chaff shields problem we currently have.
 
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Why do you need to distinguish between PvE and PvP layout? And doesn't this instantly mean that should a player with your proposed PvE layout, be interedicted by a PvP layout player, he's at a possible needless disadvantage?

Now just for one moment consider the following two changes, and imagine it ingame, and see what you recon:-
1) Gimbals and fixed are unified into a single weapon. You flick between firing it in gimballed mode (exactly like current gimbals), or fixed (exactly like current fixed). Gimbals are maybe reduced down a tad in the amount of damage they do, and the size of their firing arc too.
2) The gimbal damage is reduced the greater the angle its firing at.

Out of interest, put yourself through some imaginary scenarios... What problems do you see?

Now bring chaff into this? Hasn't this proposal help balance the chaff spam issue?

About your suggestions i ll try to reply despite my poor english...

1- no because ED is allready to easy. By this way, you make ship and players more polyvalent without any disavantage and cpable of response in all case...
2- no problemes with it, i think all weapons must have dmg in relation with angle/ distance/ type of hull... May be kinetic more than energy
 
About your suggestions i ll try to reply despite my poor english...

1- no because ED is allready to easy. By this way, you make ship and players more polyvalent without any disavantage and cpable of response in all case...
2- no problemes with it, i think all weapons must have dmg in relation with angle/ distance/ type of hull... May be kinetic more than energy

In that case, I'd go with your first suggestion then. Get rid of gimbals (and adjust the flight model for ships accordingly). That would IMHO be better than the "no mans land" we're caught in, between two opposing targeting mechanics. The game is trying to balance both, and is lesser for it IMHO.
 
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form my point of view, gimbaled is only usefull in order to farm low skilled AI ships and make milions quickly... But if you remove gimbaled, milions of winners will pop because they can't chain NPC and make cr like before...

It s why, i have stop dreaming about MY ideal game, and try to make the best with the tool some devs giving to me. Despite all forum and players suggestions, we must think about ED devs don't make their game by hazard without thinking about the stuff and game mechanics... We d better to try to play with it despite cry, call to nerf, buff and changes in all game aspect to make it fitt to our OWN vision :)

Some times a little modification is needed cause an exploit/ game breack devs haven't see, but i can't agree with this forum where all 2 posts are complain about nerf/ buff/ change.
 
form my point of view, gimbaled is only usefull in order to farm low skilled AI ships and make milions quickly... But if you remove gimbaled, milions of winners will pop because they can't chain NPC and make cr like before...
IMHO that's because they've had to design the game (flight model) around trying to balance gimbals and fixed.

And while there's such a disparity between the PvE experience and PvP experience, because NPCs are prohibited from using the same tactics as CMDRs to prevent the balancing issues from being highlighted, it means we'll have the issue of (as repeatedly described by individuals in this thread) of CMDRs having either a PvE or PvP setup.

This ultimately means there's a crack in the middle of the game. ie: If a PvP outfitted player interdicts a PvE outfitted player, there is a clear disadvantage for one of the individuals... And this is down to them not being balanced at the moment... if indeed they ever can be. It's not a good thing for the game. Ideally balancing should mean CMDRs can choose the weapons that suit their play stlye or tactics... NOT simply what it's forced due to unbalanced mechanics. ie: You have to go fixed because of chaff spam.
 
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In fact, i m not using fixed cause chaff, i m using fixe since age cause it's more skilly and fun, and it make more dmg... i have never thinked about using it specialy to counter chaff build... I'm using fixed in pve too since age...
 
In fact, i m not using fixed cause chaff, i m using fixe since age cause it's more skilly and fun, and it make more dmg... i have never thinked about using it specialy to counter chaff build... I'm using fixed in pve too since age...

..and it's a shame your skill at using fixed against NPCs isn't rewarded by the game. Instead you are penalised because it instead rewards the use of gimbals. Demonstrated by the fact NPCs are not allowed to use the same tactics as CMDRs (with chaff).
 
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IMHO that's because they've had to design the game (flight model) around trying to balance gimbals and fixed.

And while there's such a disparity between the PvE experience and PvP experience, because NPCs are prohibited from using the same tactics as CMDRs to prevent the balancing issues from being highlighted, it means we'll have the issue of (as repeatedly described by individuals in this thread) of CMDRs having either a PvE or PvP setup.

This ultimately means there's a crack in the middle of the game. ie: If a PvP outfitted player interdicts a PvE outfitted player, there is a clear disadvantage for one of the individuals... And this is down to them not being balanced at the moment... if indeed they ever can be. It's not a good thing for the game. Ideally balancing should mean CMDRs can choose the weapons that suit their play stlye or tactics... NOT simply what it's forced due to unbalanced mechanics. ie: You have to go fixed because of chaff spam.

Translation: I want it all.

Sorry, if you choose PVP, you are at a disadvantage to doing PVE combat, or trading. Trading? PVP and PVE are going to be hard.

Classic rock/paper/scissors.
The ships in this game usually give you one style, and some of the multitaskers give you two of three. But not good at all three.

And you cannot tell me you have not played an MMORPG that has task specific builds and equipement. If you show up at a high level raid in PVP gear, you are going to get booted, or if you stay, killed dead.

As the other major PVP complainer in the forum claims, you don't need chaff or anything else, because you can just highwake out and that is an "exploit".

Same merit-less kind of argument here.

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..and it's a shame your skill at using fixed against NPCs isn't rewarded by the game. Instead you are penalised because it instead rewards the use of gimbals. Demonstrated by the fact NPCs are not allowed to use the same tactics as CMDRs (with chaff).


A lie, since many PVEers are complaining about "cheating NPCs using chain chaff"

A pox on both your houses.
 
Lol or you like, if you feel that's better shows your mindset than reasoned debate.
Yes. My mindset is one of amusement at your solution.
I absolutely agree skill should reward. However, I do not see how a defacto (forced?) standard of multiple chaff units, and fixed weapons equates to skill though.
You don't see how having to sometimes stop letting your gimbals aim for you, and aiming manually equates to skill?
And consider how would my proposed solution where a weapon offers some gimballed behaviour, but also delivers more damaged when the target is kept direcly ahead not reward skill? And how would this mean more CMDRs wouldn't simply find themselves not "tooled up" for PvE or PvP, but instead are able to fight more battles they face, rather than simply being out "papered" because the opponent has "stone" this time around.
Again, the rock paper scissors analogy only works for hard counters. Chaff is not a hard counter to anything. It is still possible to kill an opponent who is using chaff, with gimballed weapons equipped.

Last time I checked, my weapons worked just as well against players and NPCs. PvE and PvP aren't factors here.
And once again, you use jibes instead of reason, and ignore the point(s) at hand. Why is this?
The fact that you consider any suggestion that you are lacking skill to be a jibe, says more about you than it does about me. If you were effective with fixed weapons, you wouldn't find chaff to be a problem. You find chaff to be a problem. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that you are not yet effective with fixed weapons. This isn't a jibe, it's just the reality. Or do you think that skill is a necessary attribute of a good person?
How does the ability to nerf gimbals and turrets, for minute(s) on end, equate to skill, or indeed anything +ve within the game.
You're only nerfing one ability, (the auto-aim. They still do the same damage at all the same costs.) and sacrificing hp to do it. The skill comes from using manual aim and being more vulnerable to the hits that you do take. Don't you think it requires more skill to aim manually than automatically?
Indeed, a mechanic that NPCs are banned from using because of how unbalanced it is. Please supply a video, by any means, showing this is not the case?
There are threads of multiple players who make the claim that NPCs chain chaff. I'm sure that if you asked there, somebody with better hardware could provide you with a video.

It's irrelevant either way. There are plenty of things that players do that NPCs don't. Should we ban high waking, and boosting outside of evasion too?

Your solution is also an admission of the irrelevance. You're no longer asking for chaff to be nerfed, but gimbals and fixed to be unified. Sort of suggests that your primary concern is that you have encountered something that is giving you difficulty, and instead of learning to overcome it, you come here and ask the devs to take away the difficulty. Is chaff the problem or is it the weapons? Are your motives altruistic or selfish? Asking to remove the preferred weapon type of a lot of players indicates the latter.

While we're at it. My hull reinforcements "nerf" your weapons too... how about we nerf them? Mirrored hulls "nerf" your lasers? Should we nerf those?

Not so. I even suggested unifying the weapons and allowing you to simply toggle between two modes, gimbal and fixed, so you in effect can use the weapons as either type we currently have, thus meaning everyone can flick between the two varieties of weapon use as the sitation dictates. More variety, more chance to show your skill.
You can already flick between the 2. And those who enjoy using fixed weapons get to keep their preference.

Also... it's not about "showing" my skill. (Again shows your mindset. You seem a little insecure here btw... not a jibe either, your sensitivity to suggestions that you lack the skills to use fixed weapons does indicate insecurity). It's about the enjoyment of developing skills and using them. I couldn't care less who sees them. I'm not playing for their benefit.

Currently, chaff/fixed/gimbal/turrets provide choices and trade offs. Your arguments that there is a problem have been wholly unconvincing, and are unlikely to convince anyone who knows how to deselect their target and aim. I'd recommend practicing with fixed weapons. It's both rewarding, and completely negates your problem. The person relying on chaff to evade fire, just dies quicker.

Chaff also provides a defense for traders/smugglers not equipped for combat.

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Less posts... More videos please...

Less ducking.. more logic.
Less nerfing... more practice.
Less sensitivity.. more honesty.

:)

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..and it's a shame your skill at using fixed against NPCs isn't rewarded by the game. Instead you are penalised because it instead rewards the use of gimbals. Demonstrated by the fact NPCs are not allowed to use the same tactics as CMDRs (with chaff).

You keep saying this "not allowed"... Do you have a source for this? Has a Dev ever stated that NPCs aren't "allowed" to chain chaff?
 
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Majinvash

Banned
Just stumbled on this thread.

Amazing, truly truly amazing.
That you basically want to buff hand holding features and take away any requirement for skill.
Chaff already runs out way before tanks ships, who are generally flying backwards run out of scb.
That's not going to change in horizons.
To then ask to take away the one thing that temp defeats your auto target weapons is incredible. Even when you can counter by deselecting the target.
How much more basic do you want combat to become?
Would you prefer someone played the game for you?

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
You keep saying this "not allowed"... Do you have a source for this? Has a Dev ever stated that NPCs aren't "allowed" to chain chaff?

As suggested, simply feel free to provide a video of an NPC daisy chaining chaff akin to a CMDR, such that your gimbals/turrets cannot lock on, let's say for even just 30 seconds?

Until you can provide even just a modicum of evidence to back up what you've repeatedly attested to be seeing in the game, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take much of anything you say seriously.

If you provide a video I'd be welcoming of it... If you feel you cannot, and/or maybe in fact you were mistaken, simply state as much. Either will do...
 
As suggested, simply feel free to provide a video of an NPC daisy chaining chaff akin to a CMDR, such that your gimbals/turrets cannot lock on, let's say for even just 30 seconds?

Until you can provide even just a modicum of evidence to back up what you've repeatedly attested to be seeing in the game, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take much of anything you say seriously.

If you provide a video I'd be welcoming of it... If you feel you cannot, and/or maybe in fact you were mistaken, simply state as much. Either will do...

You're ducking the argument. I've already told you why I won't be providing video... There are multiple threads with many players who have seen the same as I have. This issue is relevant in those threads. It isn't relevant to this topic though. But if you'd like proof, there are many players in those threads. I'd say it's unlikely that they all have the same issues with running that software as I do.

Which is again, a tangent. You're main argument has been comprehensively debunked on every point. If you'd like to continue arguing the tangent, you should probably take it to one of the other relevant threads.

While you're there, you might provide a source that NPCs aren't "allowed" to chain chaff.
:)
 
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Just stumbled on this thread.

Amazing, truly truly amazing.
That you basically want to buff hand holding features and take away any requirement for skill.
Chaff already runs out way before tanks ships, who are generally flying backwards run out of scb.
That's not going to change in horizons.
To then ask to take away the one thing that temp defeats your auto target weapons is incredible. Even when you can counter by deselecting the target.
How much more basic do you want combat to become?
Would you prefer someone played the game for you?
I'd have to suggest anyone ending on a straw man risks not making a very good case for themselves?

The issues as I see it:-
- Consider what the defacto standard equipment is for PvP. Consider what the defacto standard equipment is for PvE. Do they generally vary quite noticeably? Why is this? How is this a good things? Is it down to skill, or possibly unbalanced mechanics?
- And before you suggest it's not down to unbalanced mechanics, consider how you do not see NPCs using the same wall of chaff technique against CMDRs that we see CMDRs emplying... Why would FD prevent NPCs from using this very common technique if everything was balanced?

To address the straw man, I do not want mechanics simplified, I'd simply like to see variety and/or skill rewarded, rather than certain modules/weapons being an almost "must have" at certain times (eg: PvP).

In an ideal game, we'd see next to no differences between a supposed PvP and a PvE ship. With main benefit being of course, CMDRs set on interdicting other CMDRs in OPEN, quite possibly with a PvE orientated layout do not then have a possible immediate advantage...

And I indeed wonder if some of the "push back" I seem from some individuals on this thread, is possibly they don't like the idea of their dedicated PvP layout not almost certainly being an advantage of the majority of other players in OPEN who are kitted out less specifically. ;)
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
As this is so heated I'm going to close it for a while so you can all go away, have a nice cup of beverage of your choice and maybe later we'll reopen it.
 

Yaffle

Volunteer Moderator
We're back

Please don't go round in circles repeatedly asking the same thing of each other.

Don't snipe. Don't attack other users.

Continue.
 

Majinvash

Banned
I'd have to suggest anyone ending on a straw man risks not making a very good case for themselves?

The issues as I see it:-
- Consider what the defacto standard equipment is for PvP. Consider what the defacto standard equipment is for PvE. Do they generally vary quite noticeably? Why is this? How is this a good things? Is it down to skill, or possibly unbalanced mechanics?
- And before you suggest it's not down to unbalanced mechanics, consider how you do not see NPCs using the same wall of chaff technique against CMDRs that we see CMDRs emplying... Why would FD prevent NPCs from using this very common technique if everything was balanced?

To address the straw man, I do not want mechanics simplified, I'd simply like to see variety and/or skill rewarded, rather than certain modules/weapons being an almost "must have" at certain times (eg: PvP).

In an ideal game, we'd see next to no differences between a supposed PvP and a PvE ship. With main benefit being of course, CMDRs set on interdicting other CMDRs in OPEN, quite possibly with a PvE orientated layout do not then have a possible immediate advantage...

And I indeed wonder if some of the "push back" I seem from some individuals on this thread, is possibly they don't like the idea of their dedicated PvP layout not almost certainly being an advantage of the majority of other players in OPEN who are kitted out less specifically. ;)

But your whole issue makes absolutely no sense.

You are asking for a choice to be nerfed because its effective and makes some else's choice less effective. ( In essence )

I do not know how much PVP experience you have and I am going going to tell you to get better.

But trust me when I say, I have nothing BUT PVP experience. I only recently got to Dangerous in ranking due to my lack of npc killing since the game launch.
I play the game a lot!

The addition of double chaff is required because of the over powering nature of Gimbled and Turreted weapons.

I know and have tested every single build on pretty much every ship you can think of.

I can 100% tell you that if they nerfed chaff, I would instantly switch to gimbed on ALL of my PVP ships.
As would 99% of the PVP players out there, I would probably throw in a turreted beam as well.
So if you want to nerf chaff, you would have to in turn either buff fixed or nerf the power of auto tracking weapons.

The reason why NPC's are the way they are is because and trust me on this, the majority of players in ED are TERRIBLE at PVP.
This is what leads to so many tears and so much upset. Where they feel that because they can destroy NPC's on mass, that they should be just as good in PVP straight away with the same builds. Not have to adapt and improve.
NPC's could chain chaff, run shield tanks and be a REAL challenge but the end result is that it would destroy the majority of the players who play in Solo or Group.
Sarah Jane has already said she could buff NPC's to be god like.

The number of player Anacondas I have beaten with a Viper or Vulture shows that skill often trumps builds, but only to a degree.
If this same terrible player was running turrets or gimbles and my small ship couldn't counter them with chaff.
No matter how good I am, the build would win.

So rather than wanting chaff nerfed, I am happy to teach you to be a better PVP players.

The real truth is that majority of PVP builds have more heat sinks now than chaff, simply due to the fact that high level PVP players will pick fixed because they use less power, do more damage and are not effected by chaff or silent running. We have nerfed chaff ourselves.
Silent running builds are going to become one of the new metas in horizon because shield cells are likely to be harder to use without cooking your ship and because module sniping is still a major problem.

Add me in game and I will make you a better fighter

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
But your whole issue makes absolutely no sense.
Fair enough... Let's try and make some sense out of it :)

I am quite honestly more than happy to be "educated" if I'm wrong etc.

You are asking for a choice to be nerfed because its effective and makes some else's choice less effective. ( In essence )
To clarify, I think there's a mis-balance, which means rather than a certain balance, chaff counter acting Gimbals and Turrets, such that the two have a logical balance between them, the current system is too infavour of against gimbals/turrets... as demonstrated by:-
1) The defacto weapons/outfitting choices most PvP folks end up with.
2) The fact that NPCs do not spam chaff akin to CMDRs because it would cause an outcry across a huge number of Pve orientated players. ie: Can you imagine if CMDRs lost lock with their gimbals and turrets for 30-60s at times?

I do not know how much PVP experience you have and I am going going to tell you to get better.
OK... I will try, but I don't see what that as to do with the point(s) so far.

The addition of double chaff is required because of the over powering nature of Gimbled and Turreted weapons.
Very possibly, but does that mean all is perfectly balanced? If so why such different outfitting between PvP and PvE? Why are NPCs not permitted to chaff spam?

I can 100% tell you that if they nerfed chaff, I would instantly switch to gimbed on ALL of my PVP ships.
Now that sounds like a knee-jerk comment I'm afraid with no reason at all. Let's suggest the adjustment was to reduce chaff duration by 0.1 seconds? Would you switch then? How can you make such a concrete statement without knowing what the proposal is you're making it for?

If a proposal is too harsh on chaff, then undoubtedly you'd be right. If it it wasn't enough (as per my silly 0.1 seconds suggestion), things would remain much as is. But how about if we find somewhere towards the middle? Don't thing get interesting somewhere around there maybe?

The reason why NPC's are the way they are is because and trust me on this, the majority of players in ED are TERRIBLE at PVP.
That's a fair point. I suspect NPCs are made to be a "reasonable challenge" (only)...

The real truth is that majority of PVP builds have more heat sinks now than chaff, simply due to the fact that high level PVP players will pick fixed because they use less power, do more damage and are not effected by chaff or silent running. We have nerfed chaff ourselves.
Silent running builds are going to become one of the new metas in horizon because shield cells are likely to be harder to use without cooking your ship and because module sniping is still a major problem.
I've not even fired a laser in 1.5/2.0 so I can't comment I'm afraid. How much they've changed combat on these fronts and how that affects the matter at hand (chaff) is obviously interesting. ie: If it's move the goal posts then that clearly affects this discussion.


But ultimately, do you not at least agree the relationship between chaff, gimbals and turrets is an insanely hard thing to balance? And I do wonder if that's because:-
a) Chaff is (currently) so effective.
b) You can daisy chain uses to make is constantly effective.

Do you not have any ideas how to make the effect less concrete so the two can exist in a somewhat more balanced fashion? eg: Sooden's suggestion that chaff isn't simply 100% effective, it's more vague and dependent upon things like distance - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=203446&page=9&p=3227651#post3227651

Ultimately I think this comes down to trying to balance two very different weapon targeting system. Gimbal obviously has an insane advantage over fixed, and turrets too. I just think the current "on/off" chaff mechanic, combined with being able to turn it on for long periods isn't a good solution to the problem. I don't pretend to know what an idea solution is, but where the game is at the moment just doesn't feel right IMHO. I feel something can be adjusted to blur the lines a little... and in doing so PvP outfitting may become all the more varied, which surely isn't a bad thing? And even more importantly, choice is less forced, and more by what suits you.
 
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