Any word on fixing grenade spam and near impossible to kill NPC's in FPS missions, regardless of level?

[Angelpichu]

Uh huh.. whatever you say.. You are wrong however. Completely.. It has nothing to do with jumping around and running away.. When NPC's continually lob grenades one after the other non stop, that is a bug. PERIOD. Using them here and there or in certain situations, sure.. But just constantly throwing them without any hesitation even after they just threw one, that is a bug. PERIOD.

I find the grenade rate is manageable so far, but the problem is that low ranked NPCs AI aim with them is about the same as a high ranked NPC aim, where expected behavior with lower ranked NPCs would be to have them misaim or have "jitter" with their grenade target locations, sometimes hitting their mark, sometimes veering off course.

Regardless, if you're hiding somewhere, they will try to flush you out, and they are much more likely to use grenades if you're on a roof they can't path to, so something you can do is turn your shields on if you think they're about to start throwing grenades, which will cause them to throw shield breaking grenades, then as long as the indicator shows the shield breaking grenades, turn off your shields to avoid taking shield damage, since they don't do health damage. But be careful with this technique; if someone has line of sight to you they can still shoot you, and if an NPC has already decided to use a grenade and shouted that they're using one, they've already decided which grenade to use, so if you didn't have your shield up before they said it, a frag grenade is coming your way and you WILL need to shield that or move out of the way.

 

[dewelcodex1]

Balanced view on this: The laser accuracy of the AI at low levels could use tweaking down - keep it for the higher threat stuff. I think it's great but the AI is far too aggressive for novice players. There's a way to scale that back for them and scale it right back up for experienced players. Can't just ignore the new players and say "but you can do it". Obviously, we can. They can't though. I've said it a dozen times, the AI you face as a newcomer is essentially the same AI I'm facing now as a relatively experienced player; that "we" can do it is irrelevant, "we" aren't the op and we are more experienced and the content the OP and "we" face is basically exactly the same; there is an issue there. There's no finesse whatsoever. I hope we get that one day. It makes a game much better for its inclusion.

The above is literally how you answer an issue a player like the OP is having. Nice post.

If it's so bad why are you here?

This is literally how you don't act on a forum.

 

[Ryuto]

Balanced view on this: The laser accuracy of the AI at low levels could use tweaking down - keep it for the higher threat stuff. I think it's great but the AI is far too aggressive for novice players. There's a way to scale that back for them and scale it right back up for experienced players. Can't just ignore the new players and say "but you can do it". Obviously, we can. They can't though. I've said it a dozen times, the AI you face as a newcomer is essentially the same AI I'm facing now as a relatively experienced player; that "we" can do it is irrelevant, "we" aren't the op and we are more experienced and the content the OP and "we" face is basically exactly the same; there is an issue there. There's no finesse whatsoever. I hope we get that one day. It makes a game much better for its inclusion.

I have to agree that they can be. They're also pretty straightforward in what they do. The one time I've been really impressed by the AI was when I had engaged one group that was already at a base another group came in via dropship and immediately began attacking my ship. It actually made me tear myself away from the current engagement to deal with the clear and present danger to my vessel.

I realize that was probably just a fluke of placement of the dropship and the AI firing on the nearest enemy asset they could see, but, it was still pretty impressive in the heat of the moment when I was like 'Uh oh...' and had to adjust my tactics.

 

[dewelcodex1]

I find the grenade rate is manageable so far, but the problem is that low ranked NPCs AI aim with them is about the same as a high ranked NPC aim, where expected behavior with lower ranked NPCs would be to have them misaim or have "jitter" with their grenade target locations, sometimes hitting their mark, sometimes veering off course.

Regardless, if you're hiding somewhere, they will try to flush you out, and they are much more likely to use grenades if you're on a roof they can't path to, so something you can do is turn your shields on if you think they're about to start throwing grenades, which will cause them to throw shield breaking grenades, then as long as the indicator shows the shield breaking grenades, turn off your shields to avoid taking shield damage, since they don't do health damage. But be careful with this technique; if someone has line of sight to you they can still shoot you, and if an NPC has already decided to use a grenade and shouted that they're using one, they've already decided which grenade to use, so if you didn't have your shield up before they said it, a frag grenade is coming your way and you WILL need to shield that or move out of the way.

I really think my first few encounters were pretty overwhelming grenade wise- I haven't noticed it as much, In bases it's easier to deal with than flat open plains.

 

[Han Zulu]

Title of this post is self explanatory to the devs.

I just did a mission earlier today with grenade spamming scavvies. Had to run around and get different vantage points. Well, had to do it anyway because of their plasma sharp-shooter that kept on hiding every time he lost his shield. It took foreeeeever to get them done, but done they got. It's totally doable. The times I fail, it tends to be because I get overly optimistic and rushing the situation with a no-shield attack. Dumb me. Anyway. I kind'a like it being a bit tricky and annoying. How else can you learn?

 

[Jmanis]

They lob grenades where they last saw you, which makes sense. Just move from that position without being spotted and the grenades won't land anywhere near you. If there's a single NPC lobbing a grenade, down their shields quickly, they'll drop the grenade and hurt/kill themselves. As for impossible to kill NPCs... not really. As this one posts:

I really think my first few encounters were pretty overwhelming grenade wise- I haven't noticed it as much, In bases it's easier to deal with than flat open plains.

Flat, open areas are deadly. For missions which put you in non-base areas, if I hear another ship coming, I leg it back to my ship so I can lift off and hit them with dumbfires, then go back to looting.

Individual enemies are easily dispatched, heck, I took out one with five shield bars (had the gold three-chevrons and star rank insignia) with a G1 Plasma Rifle.

But for groups in bases or other locations with lots of cover, it's all about moving, breaking line of sight and then flanking stray enemies when they're attacking in a group. Groups are hard when they're together, and if you're fighting in a base and that happens, run away to the other end of the base then hunt down the enemies individually when they break up to search for you.

Lastly, don't let the alarms go off. If you let the alarms go off and don't have an immediate plan to disable them, get out of dodge, fast.

 

[Vekt Ey'doom]

They're bullet sponges. If you're willing to stand around dumping rounds into it for 5 minutes they do die, and they have partial damage states which is neat, but yikes.

They'd make cool "Boss" enemies to kill on foot for team missions. I think the Goliaths now have hard anti-ship counters right? Like reverb cascade missiles or something. I think a cool "Unintentionally Layered" mission type would be to Kill the goliath, because you could approach it a few ways, but basically every way involves wiping the base out entirely. You can try to do it methodically (Likely the best approach solo) by disabling the station alarm and then eliminating the garrison, then focusing on the Goliath, or drop in with a crew and attempt to kill it as quickly as possible with as much firepower as possible, and then leave before OMNIPOL shows up.

From the stations I've seen that have Goliath support, they often have lots of ships covering too. So you really would need like a full wing, with at least one commander to kill the stuff in the sky in order to get a safe egress. So I guess a Kill Goliath mission would go like in phases:

Phase 1: Stealth to disable station security including antiship turrets

Phase 2: Attack actually commences, dealing with ground garrison

Phase 3: Fighting the Guardian itself

Phase 4: Evac, and if any air support is present, an air battle.


It would be fun, but it would also have to pay a lot, like I think 20million + and at least 15 rare data, with (If accepted from an NPC) up to 30 rare data on a successful max tier negotiation.

 

[Jmanis]

It would be fun, but it would also have to pay a lot, like I think 20million + and at least 15 rare data, with (If accepted from an NPC) up to 30 rare data on a successful max tier negotiation.

It's hard to tell, but I think part of the problem with payout is we're all still busting around as Defenceless/Mostly Defenceless, because of the ranking bug.

If you start a new commander and try to take, say, massacres, most you'll get is 1m, compared to 50m for elite-ranked missions.

 

[Vekt Ey'doom]

It's hard to tell, but I think part of the problem with payout is we're all still busting around as Defenceless/Mostly Defenceless, because of the ranking bug.

If you start a new commander and try to take, say, massacres, most you'll get is 1m, compared to 50m for elite-ranked missions.

I'm at rookie, and I haven't noticed any marked improvement in anything, so...

Also, I just realized I kept calling them Guardians, not Goliaths.

 

[Ghural]

Not having a poke at the OP.

But I'm having a pretty easy time with NPCs of all levels and wish they presented a greater challenge. Conflict zones in particular are too easy.

 

[Jmanis]

I'm at rookie, and I haven't noticed any marked improvement in anything, so...

Also, I just realized I kept calling them Guardians, not Goliaths.

Not incorrect though. There's Stingers, Sentrys, Guardians and Goliaths

Skimmers

Skimmers are small, remotely-piloted surface vehicles used to guard sites on planetary surfaces such as Settlements and Shipwrecks. They hover over the surface of the planet, but are not considered aircraft, as they cannot attain high altitudes. Since they are piloted remotely, independent...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

 

[the100thmonkey]

The only thing that needs to be fixed is the relationship between the stated threat level and the actual threat.

Balanced view on this: The laser accuracy of the AI at low levels could use tweaking down - keep it for the higher threat stuff.

I'm not sure I agree here - low-ranked NPCs can be standing 5m in front of you and consistently miss with any weapon, even when you're standing still. The experience is often like that scene from Robocop 2:

I think it's great but the AI is far too aggressive for novice players. There's a way to scale that back for them and scale it right back up for experienced players.

The key here is how the devs quantify experienced. The game already does a good job with the initial three in-ship ranks - exploration, trade and combat - through how it spawns enemies in both random events for interdictions and the NPCs that spawn for mission wrinkles. Right now, the vast majority of the player base for Odyssey -- even experienced FPS players -- are likely in the bottom three mercenary ranks. The only currently effective way to balance combat, therefore, will come through proper threat description and a reliable relationship between that and the actual threat. Indeed, Elite does this quite consistently for space combat - there are three ratings for resource extraction sites and conflict zones, with additional, more challenging, combat instances through the pirate activity and Thargoid USSes. No one would seriously recommend a starter player in a Sidewinder to go to a pirate activity threat 7 USS. In other words, the difficulty of potential combat should be advertised, and it should be consistent. That would allow players who aren't confident in their abilities to make informed choices, just as they can now with ship-to-ship engagements.

Can't just ignore the new players and say "but you can do it". Obviously, we can. They can't though. I've said it a dozen times, the AI you face as a newcomer is essentially the same AI I'm facing now as a relatively experienced player; that "we" can do it is irrelevant, "we" aren't the op and we are more experienced and the content the OP and "we" face is basically exactly the same; there is an issue there. There's no finesse whatsoever. I hope we get that one day. It makes a game much better for its inclusion.

NPC combat behaviour - aggression, use of grenades and flanking - was tweaked during the alpha. It can be dialled back. I'd also suggest that more than one training scenario would be helpful. Conflict zone scenarios for all three difficulty levels that any player can access from the training menu would be useful as it would help acclimate players to how the NPCs operate. The actual difficulty at these instances (awful performance making the shooting more difficult notwithstanding) is again pretty consistent.

On the flip side, death on foot costs very little (nothing, actually, outside of mission failure fines, which can be paid off after 10 minutes in a High RES bounty snatching from the police ships.) Failure can be an excellent teacher too, as long as your mind is open to the possibility that you can get better. When there's no penalty for death, it means there's no penalty for practice.

 

[Xaviour]

A technique that works for me when numbers attack, is prior to entering a settlement, park the SRV just outside and if combat starts and outnumbered head back to SRV and lure them to it, hop in turret and blast them away. I've taken Goliath drones with standard ammo. Trick is to keep driving and shooting.

 

[Angelpichu]

They lob grenades where they last saw you, which makes sense. Just move from that position without being spotted and the grenades won't land anywhere near you. If there's a single NPC lobbing a grenade, down their shields quickly, they'll drop the grenade and hurt/kill themselves. As for impossible to kill NPCs... not really. As this one posts:

Flat, open areas are deadly. For missions which put you in non-base areas, if I hear another ship coming, I leg it back to my ship so I can lift off and hit them with dumbfires, then go back to looting.

Individual enemies are easily dispatched, heck, I took out one with five shield bars (had the gold three-chevrons and star rank insignia) with a G1 Plasma Rifle.

But for groups in bases or other locations with lots of cover, it's all about moving, breaking line of sight and then flanking stray enemies when they're attacking in a group. Groups are hard when they're together, and if you're fighting in a base and that happens, run away to the other end of the base then hunt down the enemies individually when they break up to search for you.

Lastly, don't let the alarms go off. If you let the alarms go off and don't have an immediate plan to disable them, get out of dodge, fast.

Advanced tactics (if there are no skimmers on the base) are hitting someone with a body shot so they start calling in an alarm, then ducking behind cover and moving away without getting seen again. All the guards will swarm your last known location, letting you sneak around them. Be wary, civilians will stay put in their "home area"s though. And of course, if there aren't many guards left, a dropship might drop them in or one of the respawn closets (you know those things that look like small loading bays closed up? Enemies will sometimes spawn out of them, opening the door. Watch for those too.) might pop out more enemies. Another trick is to start operating a panel that takes a long time to use, like sample containment, power plant regulator control, etc, while the alarms are still enabled. This will draw all enemies to that location. Sure, they'll undo whatever you did (at least in power plants they'll cancel the shutdown, not sure about other things) but by then you've already downloaded what you needed from security and are 500m out from the base by the time they get back.

 

[Nyres]

The only thing that needs to be fixed is the relationship between the stated threat level and the actual threat.

I'm not sure I agree here - low-ranked NPCs can be standing 5m in front of you and consistently miss with any weapon, even when you're standing still. The experience is often like that scene from Robocop 2:

The key here is how the devs quantify experienced. The game already does a good job with the initial three in-ship ranks - exploration, trade and combat - through how it spawns enemies in both random events for interdictions and the NPCs that spawn for mission wrinkles. Right now, the vast majority of the player base for Odyssey -- even experienced FPS players -- are likely in the bottom three mercenary ranks. The only currently effective way to balance combat, therefore, will come through proper threat description and a reliable relationship between that and the actual threat. Indeed, Elite does this quite consistently for space combat - there are three ratings for resource extraction sites and conflict zones, with additional, more challenging, combat instances through the pirate activity and Thargoid USSes. No one would seriously recommend a starter player in a Sidewinder to go to a pirate activity threat 7 USS. In other words, the difficulty of potential combat should be advertised, and it should be consistent. That would allow players who aren't confident in their abilities to make informed choices, just as they can now with ship-to-ship engagements.

NPC combat behaviour - aggression, use of grenades and flanking - was tweaked during the alpha. It can be dialled back. I'd also suggest that more than one training scenario would be helpful. Conflict zone scenarios for all three difficulty levels that any player can access from the training menu would be useful as it would help acclimate players to how the NPCs operate. The actual difficulty at these instances (awful performance making the shooting more difficult notwithstanding) is again pretty consistent.

On the flip side, death on foot costs very little (nothing, actually, outside of mission failure fines, which can be paid off after 10 minutes in a High RES bounty snatching from the police ships.) Failure can be an excellent teacher too, as long as your mind is open to the possibility that you can get better. When there's no penalty for death, it means there's no penalty for practice.

I agree mostly except for the death costing very little. In credits yes, but in actual player's time its very unforgiving. If your not solely working in anarchies and even then its not enough, if you die on foot after commiting any type of crime you get sent to a prison ship and then have to take a Taxi back to where your ship is before doing anything else and that time adds up real quick so the penalty is harsh, in that costs you a lot of time.

 

[Sleepyman]

As some one with no FPS experience since the Half Life 2 era 18 years ago (?) I had a lot of relearning to do.

No charging straight in, sneak sneak, sneak. Wait for the moment, shoot and scoot. A G1 plasma sniper rifle will one shot an unshielded npc.

Rinse and repeat. Upgrades are your friend as is patience. Mods are irrelevant for Lvl 2 - 4 missions

I now have everything at G3 and I have learned to deal with small mobs all coming at me at once. The learning continues.

 

[Galafrey]

I've done raids and all sorts and combat on the whole is fine, however there is the occasional mission where grenades are spammed in quick succession and are incredibly accurate. Basically you have no choice at that point but run/jump to the other side of the base. Makes a good time to restock ammo however as I tend to use the l6 rocket launcher mainly.... Just cos it's fun.

 

[norlin]

what's the grenade spam? While played a lot of combats on foot, I never considered enemies' grenades as a threat… Yeah sometimes they are incoming, but it's enough to jump aside or run a bit and you're safe.
Though maybe something changed in the latest patch, I did not yet played for the lst couple of days

 

[Koma Pahu]

This is literally how you don't act on a forum.

I’ll act how I like, if the moderators have a problem with me they will let me know.

Pretty much all I’ve seen from you is complaints about the combat system and you shifting the goal posts on what’s wrong with it whenever anyone has made a suggestion to you.

You come to this thread, not to discuss the OP’s point, but to warn them of the “facetious faux-intellects” and when people try to offer help, you just make out it a sign of their perceived superiority, bringing nothing useful to the conversation.

Looks to me like you’re projecting.

 

[Jmanis]

what's the grenade spam? While played a lot of combats on foot, I never considered enemies' grenades as a threat… Yeah sometimes they are incoming, but it's enough to jump aside or run a bit and you're safe.
Though maybe something changed in the latest patch, I did not yet played for the lst couple of days

Funnily enough the biggest threat from grenades I encounter is trying to hit "V" for melee default but instead hitting "C" which brings my shield down, panicking then hitting "X" for throw grenade... into the wall... and then I'm brave-sir-robin-ing.

Shield Disruptor grenades are more annoying than threatening... owing to the fact that if you get hit a few times your energy levels get cooked.