not really sure what a "gankable ship" is, and no idea what you are trying to prove, but boosting is definitely the only way to evade anything smaller than an asteroid in the elite combat model, that much is clear. specifically and in all but one edge case, with perpendicular thrust. there is simply no other way.
Patch Notes Update April Update - Patch Notes
- Thread starter Will Flanagan
- Start date
-
- Tags
- april patch.notes update
not really sure what a "gankable ship" is, and no idea what you are trying to prove, but boosting is definitely the only way to evade anything smaller than an asteroid in the elite combat model, that much is clear. specifically and in all but one edge case, with perpendicular thrust. there is simply no other way.
I bet that makes for a pretty short list. Just because the meta is common, doesn't mean it's popular. And this will apply to drag frags, too.
If you don't know Yamato, you never ventured out of your safe space of Cleve Hub in Eravate or engaged in real PvP...
And creative builds? how do you want to build something without the tools to counter the thing your are trying to build against?
As everyone has said over and over again, PDs don't work against packhounds, out of 6 seekers you can maybe, if you are good AND lucky, evade 4 or even 5 of them, but at least one is going to hit, if locked by more than one ship, you can forget it right away.
ECMs have a cooldown that makes them a one-trick-pony leaving you wide open for the next salvo.
Pacifiers and Frags? a single pellet is needed to apply the effect.
Gimballed or turreted frags? Even worse, if in range, they fire in your general direction and you can be sure a single pellet will hit you, unless you are good enough to fly through the pellets, I don't see how you wanna counter this (please show evidence if you are this good, I'll wait)
Literally, the only way to counter it, and this has been said over and over again by people way more experienced than you, is to stack bazillion of MJ and thousands over thousands of Hull points on Cutters and Corvettes and duke it out, making combat the most boring activity along with exploration.
And you can bet whatever you want that I'm not gonna grind for those big and slow paper-weights.
The thing I highlighted: Did you read the patchnotes or did you just pretend to so you can brag about your "knowledge"? it's both a debuff to agility AND it disables the boost for 5sec!
IF they add a cooldown, it's likely to be on par with cooldowns on TLB, what was it? 5sec as well? great... You do know that you can deal a huge amount of damage in 5sec these days especially if in a gank wing, do you?
Sure if you're flying it, or a similarly skilled pilot. Many of us who know enough are going to just try to avoid the interdiction entirely in such a situation, especially if the likely incoming gank is a wing.
That said I bet interdict and then nail a 0 pips non boosting t-6 with groms and torps if it had a typical t-6 pilot in it. None of them are using ECMs or silent running correctly and if they're shieldless I probably don't need groms or drag anyway, and obviously not torps.
You have a point re the lemons are always going to be lemons, but I just feel this will make the gulf between the can-do and the can't-do even wider. Just one more thing that folks who are only halfway up the learning curve will have a "what just hit me" sort of reaction to.
If you're seriously proposing reverski as a counter, that pretty much sums up how garbage this drag buff is. Just what PvP needs, more reverski.
What time this update will come in? 0700 UTC or later the morning?
I'll explain what I meant. For any ship that can't change momentum/direction quickly and indefinitely with permaboost (eg any ship that is not an FDL) when you boost you invariably leave yourself flat footed (what some people called "stalled") or at least partially stalled and easier to hit. So while this might seem like an "evasion" it is actually setting yourself up for a clean shot in a few seconds. There are exceptions and methods for escape well enough temporarily by use of boost to get out of range, but these depend entirely on match up of ships.
Or maybe I don't play in his timezone...
I suspect that people who can't get PD to work are flying agile ships and trying dodge while using PDs, or putting them in places on the ship with a crappy firing horizon, or so they can't work in concert in the same direction. PDs need a stable platform, time-and-space to work, and a clear firing arc. If they are on a ship that is boosting and rolling and corscrewing to avoid PAs etc, they can't track a missile enough to get a lock. Likewise, people who can't get ECM to work haven't figured out the timing. It's tricky and can be a little subject to lag, but a single well timed ECM can negate and entire 48 missile volley from a PH FDL (if such a thing still existed). ECM give better coverage when you can stack them, and I suspect that if this change goes through and torps become relevant again, people will figure this out fairly quickly.
I'm not sure Will listed an actual time. A live stream is supposed to begin at 11 am UTC, during the update. Server downtime is 6 hours-ish.
Guy on the internet, meet the dude who is consistently in the PVP Hub League finals, someone who has been called one of the best pilots in the game by several of the best pilots I have lost to. Here's his channel so you can see for yourself and recognize that you overstepped. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsl8ZqNlsz4t9xCNOt3LgdQ/videos Look up L'Intouchable while you're at it. If you ever cared about learning to be a decent PVP pilot, you would have known both by reputation at the very least. Yamato, meet the guy on the internet. There, now you guys know each other.
How long does the drag munition effect last?
Also, I’m surprised nobody is talking about the speed of the weapons that can have this effect. As I understand it the speed for all of them is ~650 m/s. If you want to boost to safety in a small ship then you are probably going over 500 m/s. The closing speed will thus be ~150 m/s, giving time to either outrun the max range of the weapon (~5 km for missiles) or deploy counter measures. And the seeking missiles require target lock to be fired at you, which can be countered with heat sinks that are commonly used defensively anyway.
What am I missing?
Also, I’m surprised nobody is talking about the speed of the weapons that can have this effect. As I understand it the speed for all of them is ~650 m/s. If you want to boost to safety in a small ship then you are probably going over 500 m/s. The closing speed will thus be ~150 m/s, giving time to either outrun the max range of the weapon (~5 km for missiles) or deploy counter measures. And the seeking missiles require target lock to be fired at you, which can be countered with heat sinks that are commonly used defensively anyway.
What am I missing?
Why. Why? Why would you do this to drags? Things were fine. We didn’t need this.
I would argue that the current meta where large ships permaboost ad infinitum while keeping pace with some small ships that have their PD run dry trying to even reach max speed, which they can't even maintain properly, is garbage. Pick your garbage I guess? Not saying I think this is a perfect solution, because it is clearly OP and will need adjustments to the debuff and several other adjustments to other related counter modules before it will be in balance. Just saying that I think the current meta is far from perfect, and the panic we're seeing now is a bit premature and not entirely warranted.
This just makes no sense. Sure once the boost is over you will be on a predictable trajectory - but no more so than you were before the boost. You can start applying the same "regular" evasion when the boost ends that you could have before boosting. Lats and verts benefit from boosting as well, so you shouldn't be predictable by the direction of your prow.
By boosting, at least the enemy has to first adjust to your rapidly changed vector. I (not any other PvP'er it seems in this thread) simply can't understand how you are making the argument that one can be just as evasive without boost as with it. This makes no sense whatsoever.
Or maybe you just don't actively study and try to improve your PvP. I don't even play on his platform never mind timezone and I've heard of Yamato. This is because part of getting better at PvP is analyzing the video and recommendations of the top PvP pilots - and he certainly qualifies.
You're really just digging a hole here man. The suggestions you had for the paper airplanes to not die on DW2 were good but here these suggestions just make no sense and seem like the wild hopes of someone who doesn't blow stuff up / get blown up often enough.
Last edited:
so basically making the only platforms viable against this are big ships.
A Vulture has the perfect placement for PDs on the rear utility mounts, but it still doesn't work against packhounds or constant seeker spam.
And as you said, evasive flying doesn't help the PDs to get a lock on the missiles.
This makes evasive flying, which is a must in wing fights when being under focus, a double edged sword.
And ye, ECM timing... that might work in 1v1s, but we all know very well that 1v1s are mostly happening in organized fights or when engaging a single sealclubber in noobcity aka Eravate.
1v1 is not the norm and in no way a means to balance weapons and their various engineering effects.
But wouldn't it make sense to fix that perma-boosting stuff, instead of coming up with another magic engineering effect, which will propably shift the meta from more-or-less-skill to seeker-frag-shieldtank-click? I don't see the need for this change. FD themselves implemented that perma-boost stuff, especially with the Kraits. I have to repeat, fix the underlying issues instead of hoping for the best with a new effect.
Do you actually PvP much? You seem really caught up in this idea everyone flies the meta. Sure if you really really want to win a particular engagement it's FdL time. But I fight vipers, FAS, Chief, vette etc more often than FdL. I don't know, maybe it's a platform thing, at least on PS4 we mix up builds because a billion FdL fights get repetitive.
However, there's always enough people around willing to use garbage tactics (healies, t-10's with 8 seekers vs hulltanks, etc.) to make it annoying to fly more creative builds, and this is just going to amplify that by a lot.
I probably fly a chally more commonly than anything else, and the meta FDLs (or big ships) you seem to think is at risk will actually hold up against this ridiculous drag buff much better than my pirate kit chally with its little biweave and two utility slots wasted on scanners and internals wasted on fuel scoops and such. That fun agile ship of mine is hurt by permadrag much more than a dedicated meta prismatic FdL.
Last edited:
What small ships are you talking about?! Vipers get the 7x boost multiplier so reach their top speed trivially. The other feasible useful small combat ship is the courier, and its hard to complain about the speed on those. (I'm omitting small ship stealth builds here which are also somewhat feasible if flown perfectly - which I can't ;-) ).
If you mean medium ships, FdL has the same steroid boost multiplier so speed is never an issue. And frankly there are no large ships keeping pace with well flown chiefs or FASes. The problem with large ships isn't their permaboosting it's the ridiculous hit point inflation which means it's going to take forever to beat them (1v1 at least), even if they aren't very good pilots.
This is not a question of pick your garbage, it's a question of forcing garbage down our throats. You can't advocate for reverski as a counter and have it taken seriously as a fun PvP suggestion. Might as well just wake out.
Last edited:
RE: To those that complain that we ask about downtime because we are impatient!
Patience is not the issue!!
We NOT being petulant toddlers!
We all understand that it takes as long as it needs to and we are all ok with that!
We just have busy lives,
We simply want to be able to general planning and scheduling to balance our gaming lives with our real life commitments!
It is a sensible and reasonable question to allow a sensible reasonable organisation of our week!
What's wrong with that?!
Patience is not the issue!!
We NOT being petulant toddlers!
We all understand that it takes as long as it needs to and we are all ok with that!
We just have busy lives,
We simply want to be able to general planning and scheduling to balance our gaming lives with our real life commitments!
It is a sensible and reasonable question to allow a sensible reasonable organisation of our week!
What's wrong with that?!