^ Nailed it.
A too-safe galaxy is about as compelling as a nature walk through an AstroTurf meadow, and worse, it completely removes the need for Engineers.
'Attack of the AI' III
- Thread starter Ian Phillips
- Start date
^ Nailed it.
A too-safe galaxy is about as compelling as a nature walk through an AstroTurf meadow, and worse, it completely removes the need for Engineers.
I guess it depends on what 'it' you're talking about. I am willing to accept less danger in open space, to have more challenge in certain locations, CZ/RES/USS's, to accommodate as large a community as possible. I'm the inclusive type. As I see it, the challenge would just be there waiting for you and I. Compromise is the basis of society, and I willing to do just that.
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So why didn't you jumped out in that 30 seconds spare time???
Yes, we get it. You have a sadomasocistic fetish for putting people in danger. Especially if Cylons are involved... isn't that right, Baltar?! Does the thought of people screaming as they run away from cheating AI remind you of the good ol' days of screwing the red-glowing spine lady?
But seriously, why didn't you jump?
If you have an A rated Python with shield boosters and you can't get away from an asp..... I think it's a little cheeky of you to suggest that something is wrong with the game.
It would be truly said if the devs lowered the difficulty to the degree your asking for. There's absolutely no reason you should be having difficulties with a g Asp.
I think the difficulty of the AI is pretty good right now, I just think they should make the AI smarter decision making and make them grounded in the same universe as us. NPCs don't scan and don't even enter SC and they know that they want what's in my hull, that's cheating if you ask me. And why would an Expert Python be interested in my 10k bounty that he would then need to travel 400ly away just to cash in? And why would an Elite Courier be interested in 2k worth items in my hull?
Make them better decision makers, make them use the game mechanics for crying out loud, and make them weigh in risk vs reward!! You made them tougher and dumber at the same time.
Make them better decision makers, make them use the game mechanics for crying out loud, and make them weigh in risk vs reward!! You made them tougher and dumber at the same time.
Been trying to think of a concise way to say this, and you summed it up perfectly. This is precisely the experience I'm having with 2.1, and with the post-2.1 forums community (the real PvP to any online game, don'tcha know).
If the game had been anything like this when I got in at 1.3, I wouldn't have bought it, let alone buying the lifetime upgrade, some ship repaints, a few hundred dollars worth of input devices, and a HMD to enjoy with it. It's the fact that I glimpsed such a perfectly fun game, unequaled in anything else I've tried, and now it's been snatched away. That's what burns.
I am frazzled to the core trying to understand what you agree with.
He can't play hockey very well, so other people should play in other leagues because his friends don't play hockey very well either?
If he would spend half the time taking some advice and playing the game instead of penning silly analogies (that aren't analogous to our situation at all,) perhaps he wouldn't be in this situation.
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Then you missed the entire point of the structure of his narrative.
He/we had a game that we enjoyed, it was perfect or at least quite enjoyable. For me this would be Elite Dangerous 1.3. The game got taken away, we cannot play it any more. It has been replaced by a game that is not any fun for us, no matter how many people shout at us that if we weren't so lazy and developmentally disabled, we'd love the new game.
It's the removal of the game we loved, and the replacement of it with a game that isn't fun and where we're frankly no longer welcome; that's what's got us so animated. If the game had always been like 2.1, there wouldn't be any problem. I'd have tried it, said "LOL NOPE", and returned it, and never gotten emotionally (and financially) invested in it.
It is not a fault of the players that the AI has been, frankly, substandard, but it has created entire generations of CMDRs who have effectively power-leveled against AI that poses no immediate threat.
The name of the game should not be ironic. There need to be challenges to keep players engaged, otherwise they will leave. And frankly if the numbers leaving -- due to effectively plateauing and having no challenge or risk remaining to provide engaging content -- exceeds those starting, then Frontier has a major problem.
Yes, the game should try and encompass as many play styles and "my immersion" elements as possible. But it is a balance and you cannot have a game with low/ no challenge and expect long term support. Yearly updates are paid and people are spending money to help ensure ongoing development and to gain new experiences, and challenges alike.
Space is not easy. Our own history is replete with how hard space is, and for all intents in purposes we're not even a space-faring civilization yet. I don't think "dumbing down" large portions of the game is a long-term solution. Indeed there need to be challenges. There should be instances where a CMDR will be genuinely challenged and at immediate and serious threat.
The problem is, those generations brought up on substandard AI are pining for the fjords and wanting it back the way it was because it was, frankly, easy. The community does need to come to terms with the fact that at some point, there will be alien races added. And for the game to not descend into a complete farce, some will represent considerable risk. This is to be expected, because it's been endlessly hinted and was a core part of upcoming challenges frontier originally identified right back at the beginning.
Challenges are important. AI should be a challenge; that they started out with a serious bug that has cost CMDRs, is unfortunate, but Frontier made good on that and despite not having to, refunded losses. They have already wound back modifications for AI, massively reduced the amount of high-rank AI (which has had a non-trivial effect on materials collection, by the way) and generally made it considerably easier.
So no, I do not buy into or subscribe that Elite: Dangerous has to have all sharp edges removed for the ongoing safety of commanders. Space is hard. Life is tough, brutal and sometimes short. It's not at all difficult to trade, but it does mean that the days of lazy shieldless trading for max profit are over (unless one is quite familiar with their particular sardine tin) and that building for a universe that has some risks, is a wise investment.
The galaxy isn't a kind place. It wasn't ever meant to be a kind place. That the AI unfortunately led people to believe this, is clearly being highlighted at this point. Again I have to ask what will happen when alien races are added? That should be a rhetorical question; yet we know the answer - petitioning Frontier Development, endlessly to reduce/ remove/ degear/ nerf/ make safe so that everyone is able to do whatever they wish with little risk.
Incorrect. The game hasn't particularly changed to make you unwelcome; the environment we inhabit has changed by virtue of AI gaining the competency they were always meant to have; because it wasn't every supposed to be low/ no-risk.
I do actually believe many commanders felt the "the AI will get better" comments from Frontier were a hollow threat, because surely they wouldn't? It became a 'crying wolf' in that eventually, the message was ignored and assumed irrelevant. How is anyone expected to function if the AI remains virtually no challenge, when alien races are added? Is the community to petition frontier to make the naturally aggressive alien species into tribbles? Or some sort of harmless space goat?
No, things change. Things will always change. It's not even about the AI anymore, imho. Frontier has changed something and anyone who has difficulty with change is immediately up in arms. To their credit, they are listening and adapting the AI to be less of a risk. I am certain that some will not rest until all changes are reverted, and that is a shame.
But this game has a 10 year development cycle planned. This means there will be change. And it will keep coming. You are no less welcome now, than you were a month ago. But the universe isn't an intrinsically safe place; it was never pitched as such and this is why rebuy is not 100% of the ship value. I do not know why frontier refuse to add cargo insurance, as I believe this would address much of the trader concern (note: i run missions and trade for a decent percentage of my time in ED, along with exploring - so I am far from some combat ace) but there does need to be risk.
It's not reasonable to stave off improved AI, when this is pivotal for future features; and if they do not make these changes now, over a series of steps, then commanders will hit a brick wall in future if it's all added at once (indeed this is the single strongest argument for improved AI now; it gives the community time to adapt, before major features are added that will almost certainly mean commanders see benefit, rather than the curve becoming that wall.
Fly safe, CMDR.
See my earlier post where I explained in detail. I DID try to high wake out. The ASP took down my shields and hull before the FSD completed charging. Total time including trying to evade was around 30 seconds.
As with many of this kind of post, I can have some agreement, but what you and I look for in a game isn't universal. An increase in difficulty like we've had disenfranchises many players that found a gaming home in the Elite galaxy. There is a middle a middle ground.
The use of Dangerous in the title refers to the combat rank available in the game, not the playing conditions per se.
We have no right to judge what any generation of gamers expect or have become accustomed to. That is tantamount to the get good phrase bandied about. A challenge doesn't have to be ever present. It can be be organized into locations that are available to those that seek them. Combat is just one of the three activities we gain rank in. A player that comes to this game to mine, explore or any of the non-combat activities shouldn't have to have frustrating mechanics forced on them to satisfy, well anyone.
I say, there is a place for everyone. and we should be willing to make adjustments when there are differences of opinion. I can't see why people resent how others enjoy the game. To chastise players for chugging along in their trade ships is just punitive. Why should sheildless trading bother anyone?
If we stopped judging what others do, we wouldn't have all of the angst around her. Play and let play.
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Why? Their input is every bit as valuable as yours. They laid cash on the barrelhead just like you did. Their voice matters as much as any paying customers.
It sounds like you actually heard well in advance that the intention was to dial up the difficulty significantly. I didn't know that was the plan. Maybe I should have, I've just never followed the behind-the-scenes stuff with the devs that closely. This is a game to me, not a second job.
I've actually gotten the impression, after 1.4 and now 2.1, that you're quite right - the artistic vision of Frontier seems to be to ratchet up the difficulty more and more. That's fine, it's their game to do with as they like of course, and it sounds like this will bring it more into line with what you and several of my other interlocutors on this forum prefer, which is great. My only strong complaint is that it leaves behind those of us who thought the game was perfect before, didn't know it was still slated for fundamental changes and who can't or don't want to play it the way it is now. I'm in both categories; I both cannot, and do not want to play the game as it currently exists. I want to play it as it existed previously, so much it hurts.
I really wish we could both have the game that we want. All three of us, in fact... you and me to have the games we want to play, and Frontier to have the game they want to make. Maybe they'll still work out a way to accommodate both of us. I can't picture what that would be, but then I develop other kinds of software, not games. =) But if the game stays as it is in 2.1 or ratchets up the difficulty even higher, then it is excluding me and some others. It's kicking us out. And as someone who put (obviously) way too much emotional and financial investment in this game, that's really made for a miserable couple of days, with very little hope of it getting better.
I am, no bullsh*tting, happy that you have the game that you enjoy and that it's getting better for you. At least one of us has.
Thanks for keeping it civil. o7
People can say whatever they want here, well, provided it's interpreted as being within the forum rules, even regardless of whether or not they bought the game. While everyone has the right to an opinion, it doesn't mean their opinion isn't flawed, or just isn't something Frontier want or have the capability to viably implement.
While they do listen to people and the community, if Frontier acted on everyone's suggestions who bought the game, this would be one crappy game.
Thats the whole point. I DID try to high wake out. Total time from the time I submitted to the interdiction, turned to see it was an Asp (I think, didn't get to scan it), loose a full ring of shields on the very first shot from the Asp, decide to run and before I could get turned and complete charging my FSD, the shields and hull were gone and I am hearing "Eject, Eject, Eject" was around 30 seconds. Before, it took something like a FAS, `Conda or an FDL to get me to run but now an ASP? How do 2 C2 & 2 C1 beams shred a 6A shield with 2 shield boosters and about 12 to 15 seconds? I then watched my hull disappear in 3 to 4 shots. Like I said, that shouldn't happen to an A Rated Python. Luckily I picked her up with a 30% discount and most of the modules are also discounted or the claim would have been around 9 million credits.
People say that when player pirates go after a weaker trade vessel we are seal clubbing psychopaths. It's funny that now the same people cry when the AI seals they used to club have clubs of their own and know how to use them.
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Voted to easy as now that they figured out and fixed the bug the AI need combat engineer mods back
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Voted to easy as now that they figured out and fixed the bug the AI need combat engineer mods back
Last time I checked, people weren't using aimbots. The new AI ARE aimbots. False equivalency.