Basic question about ED is it MMO or Co-op single player.

[Jex =TE=]

ED is a twtch shooter when you are shooting. Now I am 100% convinced that you have never played the game. ED is not a turn based game.

COD is a twitch shooter. Flight sims are not a twitch shooter because you don't twitch and shoot. You cannot turn 360 in under a second which is why they are called twitch shooters afaik. You don't need a high ping because death isn't over in a second. As the fights are elongated, it makes no difference to you in ED if you see someone turning 2 tenths of a second later than when he actually did.

In something like COD, who twitches fastest usually wins the fight so ping is really important.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

COD is a twitch shooter. Flight sims are not a twitch shooter because you don't twitch and shoot. You cannot turn 360 in under a second which is why they are called twitch shooters afaik. You don't need a high ping because death isn't over in a second. As the fights are elongated, it makes no difference to you in ED if you see someone turning 2 tenths of a second later than when he actually did.

In something like COD, who twitches fastest usually wins the fight so ping is really important.

They are called twitch shooters because they are done in real time and require your reactions unlike a turn based combat game like EVE or LOTRO. The higher the ping, the more latency there is, which is not a good thing in a real time shooting game. It doesn't matter if death is over in a second or not, if you have far less latency then the other player, you will be at a massive advantage.

 

[Ziljan]

So, for those who are saying number of players in an instance is a prerequisite for a game to be classed as an MMO, can we get an actual number on this?

8? 16? 32? 64? 128? 1000000?

At what point does a game magically become an MMO due to number of players who can directly interact with each other at once?

You ask this question rhetorically, but even though the game can technically support over a 100, right now the game can become unstable with far less than 8 players in the same instance, especially if one of them is in multicrew. So asking whether it's MMO or Co-Op is besides the point. I'd say the netcode is still too broken to be either.

 

[lokvette]

For me its always been a single player game with multiplayer if you want it, but no never seen it as MMO in the true sense of the meaning.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

For me its always been a single player game with multiplayer if you want it, but no never seen it as MMO in the true sense of the meaning.

That has nothing to do whether is is an MMO or not as has been stated a million times. LOTRO is exactly the same but is an MMO.

 

[lokvette]

That has nothing to do whether is is an MMO or not as has been stated a million times. LOTRO is exactly the same but is an MMO.

You should know by now Max im only stating my personal take on things, I will never call ED a MMO.

Sure its massive game and people play it online and can play it with others but in answer in the OPs question ..see above.

 

[Jex =TE=]

They are called twitch shooters because they are done in real time and require your reactions unlike a turn based combat game like EVE or LOTRO. The higher the ping, the more latency there is, which is not a good thing in a real time shooting game. It doesn't matter if death is over in a second or not, if you have far less latency then the other player, you will be at a massive advantage.

No, it doesn't matter if you have a slightly higher ping in ED because the ships don't turn or move that fast. Also, your reactions won't be less than 200ms - try and see

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Reaction times count when things are moving fast, not slow. ED is a slow game - you also have a radar and can see the attitude of the ship so even if you can't see them, you can see what they're doing and react accordingly. Death in ED is in 40 minutes and there is no way on earth or Wolf 359 that a slightly higher ping is going to make a difference.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

But will also run on it's own with zero player input and essentially is a text changing tool to rename systems in a grindy and shallow way.

Actually. No.

No player activity, no movement, not even state changes. Zero player input in the BGS means Zero BGS. It would be completely static.

Only player activity moves the BGS. Only player activity.

 

[Han_Zen]

No, it doesn't matter if you have a slightly higher ping in ED because the ships don't turn or move that fast. Also, your reactions won't be less than 200ms - try and see

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Reaction times count when things are moving fast, not slow. ED is a slow game - you also have a radar and can see the attitude of the ship so even if you can't see them, you can see what they're doing and react accordingly. Death in ED is in 40 minutes and there is no way on earth or Wolf 359 that a slightly higher ping is going to make a difference.

ED isn't the fastest reaction gameplay, but it has quite high speeds. 200ms is 100m of, if a ship passes in front of you at 500m/s. That is significant(several ship lengths for small vessels) and that's why the game needs to 'fake' the position. This leads to jumping and rubber banding, when the game does not guess correctly what the other player will do.

The matchmaking does it's best to avoid such high P2P pings but Wings, friends lists and block list will mess things up a bit. There are always compromises that need to be made.

 

[babelfisch]

Yes which is pointless to discuss. We discuss in practice and that's assumed because it's all that's relevant.

In that case I have to wonder why you started the discussion.

 

[babelfisch]

Actually. No.

No player activity, no movement, not even state changes. Zero player input in the BGS means Zero BGS. It would be completely static.

Only player activity moves the BGS. Only player activity.

Don't bother, he confused the BGS with stellar forge and thought we are talking about orbits.

 

[Suvi Anwar]

Back when the acronym MMO was first coined, multiplayer games were limited to a maximum of 64 players. The average set limits for most MP games was 32. When games like M59, UO, and EQ came about, the term Massive meant that the traditional 64 player barrier would be exceeded, that would require the processing power of a separate server farm to handle all the data flowing to and from each individual node connected. I remember well the process of tuning the net code for EverQuest, it was a very frustrating time for those of us working on game mechanics and content. There's an unimaginable amount of data streaming in both directions as a player moves through or interacts with the world or other players.

The most simple way to think about it...

Massive = more than 64 players on the same server
Multiplayer = 2 or more players connected to the same game space
Online = requiring a live internet connection to interact with the game and other players.


The only real question here is whether or not ED fits the "Massive" part, and I believe it does. Since ED has a central server farm (even if all it is doing is managing P2P instancing) that is controlling what the player sees and is making it possible for players to be in the same space at the same time, it does fit the "Massive" part of the acronym.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Actually. No.

No player activity, no movement, not even state changes. Zero player input in the BGS means Zero BGS. It would be completely static.

Only player activity moves the BGS. Only player activity.

Actually that is not the case. There is simulated NPC trade which will push the BGS. Us players just help push it along a bit faster and can swing results. It's not called a background simulation for nothing.

Back when the acronym MMO was first coined, multiplayer games were limited to a maximum of 64 players. The average set limits for most MP games was 32. When games like M59, UO, and EQ came about, the term Massive meant that the traditional 64 player barrier would be exceeded, that would require the processing power of a separate server farm to handle all the data flowing to and from each individual node connected. I remember well the process of tuning the net code for EverQuest, it was a very frustrating time for those of us working on game mechanics and content. There's an unimaginable amount of data streaming in both directions as a player moves through or interacts with the world or other players.

The most simple way to think about it...

Massive = more than 64 players on the same server
Multiplayer = 2 or more players connected to the same game space
Online = requiring a live internet connection to interact with the game and other players.


The only real question here is whether or not ED fits the "Massive" part, and I believe it does. Since ED has a central server farm (even if all it is doing is managing P2P instancing) that is controlling what the player sees and is making it possible for players to be in the same space at the same time, it does fit the "Massive" part of the acronym.

It also controls the BGS as well.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

Firstly, ED isnt an MMO, its MP functionality is severely limited and can be described as "functional".

Secondly, i never said 100, 100 is a stupid figure. Back in 2003 i was playing Eve with 4k people on 1 server, it only ever got laggy when fleet fights the size ED could never see occurred. By 2007, on decade old internet connections and infrastructure Eve servers were holding 10k players, with ease.

Now, Eve-Online server can hold between 30k and 40k players at any one time (probably more if more were playing). People need to stop making excuses because we now live in a world where we can do amazing things with servers, and the average consumer has the same internet connection as server providers used to host up to 3 Counter-Strike servers back in 2002. One server isnt just "1 server" its backed up by Nodes to ease the load whilst still having 1 big playground for people to play in.

With EDs number, everyone could fit on 1 server...Maybe 2 on a good day...P2P was chosen either due to time or most likely; financial constraint i guarantee you that. If im playing a MASSIVELY Multiplayer Online Game i expect to be able to play with a MASSIVE amount of people, and in ED you cannot.

I dont care about how the definition of MMO can be interrupted due to its vague acronym, there is nothing massive about the multiplayer features in this game.

Any comparison with EvE makes no sense, as it is a very different game with completely different network requirements. Even then, with many people on, its framerates drop dramatically. Someone once excitedly sent me a video of a massive EvE battle. I couldn't believe what I saw: essentially a completely static images, with every few seconds some minor laser fire. No thanks.

And I do this from time to time, so don't feel bad this is on your post, but P2P allows us to connect with players from around the world. I am in California, and have been in instances with people from the Americas, ANZ and Europe at the same time. That is remarkable, especially in a game with 6 degrees of movement at high speed.

Just to repeat: (note, this is about latency, not bandwidth)
Client server
--------------
Player A: California
Player B: Japan
Player C: Europe
central server: UK
Player A ping to server: 120 ms
Player B ping to server: 200 ms
Player C ping to server: 20 ms
Result:
Player A connects to player B with 120+200 = 320 ms latency
Player A connects to player C with 120+40 = 160 ms latency
Player B connects to Player C with 200+20 = 220 ms latency

In P2P - server is only used for transactions, not for players, so
Player A connects to player B with 130 ms (ping between CA and Japan)
Player A connects to player B with 120-130 ms
Player B connects to player C with 120-140 ms

People who don't understand networking think that C/S is somehow the holy grail that will fix networking issue. It will not. It will in fact make the experience worse, or end up with regional servers.

The reality is that most networking in ED fails because people have poor or misconfigured internet connections. You can improve things already to set up a fixed port config, and make sure UDP is allowed. But client-server architecture (which is not going to happen anyway) will not solve poor internet connections of players.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

Actually that is not the case. There is simulated NPC trade which will push the BGS. Us players just help push it along a bit faster and can swing results. It's not called a background simulation for nothing.

No there is not. No player movement in a system, no inf change, and no state changes. Test it. You may see NPCs fly trade routes, but that's just a side show. They do not move the BGS. Only player transactions move the BGS

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Any comparison with EvE makes no sense, as it is a very different game with completely different network requirements. Even then, with many people on, its framerates drop dramatically. Someone once excitedly sent me a video of a massive EvE battle. I couldn't believe what I saw: essentially a completely static images, with every few seconds some minor laser fire. No thanks.

And I do this from time to time, so don't feel bad this is on your post, but P2P allows us to connect with players from around the world. I am in California, and have been in instances with people from the Americas, ANZ and Europe at the same time. That is remarkable, especially in a game with 6 degrees of movement at high speed.

Just to repeat: (note, this is about latency, not bandwidth)
Client server
--------------
Player A: California
Player B: Japan
Player C: Europe
central server: UK
Player A ping to server: 120 ms
Player B ping to server: 200 ms
Player C ping to server: 20 ms
Result:
Player A connects to player B with 120+200 = 320 ms latency
Player A connects to player C with 120+40 = 160 ms latency
Player B connects to Player C with 200+20 = 220 ms latency

In P2P - server is only used for transactions, not for players, so
Player A connects to player B with 130 ms (ping between CA and Japan)
Player A connects to player B with 120-130 ms
Player B connects to player C with 120-140 ms

People who don't understand networking think that C/S is somehow the holy grail that will fix networking issue. It will not. It will in fact make the experience worse, or end up with regional servers.

The reality is that most networking in ED fails because people have poor or misconfigured internet connections. You can improve things already to set up a fixed port config, and make sure UDP is allowed. But client-server architecture (which is not going to happen anyway) will not solve poor internet connections of players.

I keep saying this, but for some reason they still think that a client server system will be better.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No there is not. No player movement in a system, no inf change, and no state changes. Test it. You may see NPCs fly trade routes, but that's just a side show. They do not move the BGS. Only player transactions move the BGS

I have. I have played the BGS game for along time since the gane first came out. I am not talking about visible trade ships they are just for show. There is all sorts of stuff going on in the background. You should watch a stream about it. Things do change, just a lot slower.

 

[Chaparral]

Any comparison with EvE makes no sense, as it is a very different game with completely different network requirements. Even then, with many people on, its framerates drop dramatically. Someone once excitedly sent me a video of a massive EvE battle. I couldn't believe what I saw: essentially a completely static images, with every few seconds some minor laser fire. No thanks.

And I do this from time to time, so don't feel bad this is on your post, but P2P allows us to connect with players from around the world. I am in California, and have been in instances with people from the Americas, ANZ and Europe at the same time. That is remarkable, especially in a game with 6 degrees of movement at high speed.

Just to repeat: (note, this is about latency, not bandwidth)
Client server
--------------
Player A: California
Player B: Japan
Player C: Europe
central server: UK
Player A ping to server: 120 ms
Player B ping to server: 200 ms
Player C ping to server: 20 ms
Result:
Player A connects to player B with 120+200 = 320 ms latency
Player A connects to player C with 120+40 = 160 ms latency
Player B connects to Player C with 200+20 = 220 ms latency

In P2P - server is only used for transactions, not for players, so
Player A connects to player B with 130 ms (ping between CA and Japan)
Player A connects to player B with 120-130 ms
Player B connects to player C with 120-140 ms

People who don't understand networking think that C/S is somehow the holy grail that will fix networking issue. It will not. It will in fact make the experience worse, or end up with regional servers.

The reality is that most networking in ED fails because people have poor or misconfigured internet connections. You can improve things already to set up a fixed port config, and make sure UDP is allowed. But client-server architecture (which is not going to happen anyway) will not solve poor internet connections of players.

Why don't I have instancing issues in something like ESO or GW2 with 60+ people in the zone? Sometimes engaged in active pvp with far greater skin variability and particle effects? Why do I experience those issues in ED. I understand your argument, but I don't think the data supports your analysis.

 

[babelfisch]

I have. I have played the BGS game for along time since the gane first came out. I am not talking about visible trade ships they are just for show. There is all sorts of stuff going on in the background. You should watch a stream about it. Things do change, just a lot slower.

That's news to me too but I am in no way an expert in stuff regarding the BGS.

 

[babelfisch]

Why don't I have instancing issues in something like ESO or GW2 with 60+ people in the zone? Sometimes engaged in active pvp with far greater skin variability and particle effects? Why do I experience those issues in ED. I understand your argument, but I don't think the data supports your analysis.

Don't know about ESO or GW2 specifically but most MMOs make sure that you don't connect to people from another continent. These games also don't need to transfer a big amount of data in short time because combat is rather slow and there is not much movement involved. Skin variety and particle effects have nothing to do with it, they are generated local.