C & P: Hunting down CMDRs with high notoriety

[DMC831]

I know crime and punishment is being tweaked further, but I was thinking back to when i used to play a text-based MUD in the 90s that allowed unlimited PVP and stuck to roleplay as much as possible, and the ways we could self-police other players causing trouble. In that game (also a huge open sandbox with rival players and motivations and open ended play), players had tools to hunt down criminal players.

Elite is a different beast with the Open/Solo/PG and how enormous the awesome Milky Way is, but I feel there should be better tools to track down CMDRs with high notoriety.

If a notorious CMDR has a notoriety level of, say, 7 or above and is spotted by a station, an NPC (in supercruise or regular space), or another player, they should be able to be tracked in a fashion similar to the Friends list. Their location can be known to anyone tracking them, and in-game the explanation is that word spreads quickly when a CMDR with a notoriety level of 7 to 10 is seen. Perhaps there is a delay in the tracking as "word spreads", and as the notoriety goes from 7 to 10 the word spreads faster.

If the CMDR is in the middle of nowhere, such as flying around on a planet and no NPCs or anyone sees him, then their current location wouldn't be known. Once they're spotted again, the chase can continue.

If the notorious CMDR changes ships, a passive scan registering that the clean ship is being flown by the notorious CMDR would need to happen to re-alert bounty hunters to their location. Anarchy space would remain a dangerous place where criminals can hang out without being tracked.

I believe this would create a reliable way for players to police notorious criminals, and provide a fun cat and mouse game for the best PVPers. And if a notorious ganker doesn't want to be tracked, they gotta lay low for a while so the notoriety wears off and they're not spotted by anyone. It'd be both a deterrent if a player doesn't want to be tracked, and enable more dynamic interaction between bounty hunters and criminals.

This could also help keep combat roleplay based, and give bounty hunters who want to hunt the most dangerous prey a reliable way to do so. It's nearly impossible to find a player criminal otherwise, and I think it's best to put the policing in the player's hands as much as possible.

The tracking could be limited to specific security levels, whether the local superpower is mad at them or not, perhaps the bounty hunter needs to be at least cordial with local factions-- it's a loose idea as of now, but in general I think enabling players to track down known criminals would be fun for both sides and help "force" the interaction I think most CMDR's playing those roles want.

Feel free to let me know how bad the idea is!
--DMC

 

[rxay579]

Seems like a good idea. A lot of PvP talk I read talks about a lack of player interaction driving them to their dirty deeds and this would attract attention to them faster. Want a fight? Drop in somewhere and start wrecking the place (NPC generate notoriety too), then wait for a reprisal.
I've wondered how one would actually go about tracking down a notorious individual with in-game tools. Assuming there is no existing method, this seems like a solution to that.

As well-meaning features have caused unintended consequences before, I wonder what, if any, this would have.
The only thing I can think of at the moment is that a player could rack up notoriety from NPC kills, then become the target of another player's reprisal at a level of combat effectiveness for which they are quite unprepared. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if one can be tracked with higher notoriety, I'd like to see that little stat (notoriety) display a little more prominently on the player's HUD letting them know what's coming.

 

[Frag]

I made this suggestion in a similar fashion awhile ago - essentially I think the star map should show any player who is wanted and has been seen by any other player or any other security service. That is we have a heat signature of wanted players enabling traders to stay clear and or bounty hunters to go after them. It is really a missed opportunity here as it would really allow for player role play based interaction easily.

In fact it can be done much the way is "report crime" - have a flag that is "report wanted" - you see a wanted player you call the po-po.

Finally this would not only add more consequence for pirates but would actually make it more fun. Ducking and weaving, perhaps killing anyone who may betray their locations.. could spin off quite a lot of fun mechanics.

but first they need to fix combat logging or its moot. Players will just pull their plugs when shields are about to go down or they feel they will lose.

 

[rxay579]

Hrm, okay, a couple more things.

This seems a lot like an feature pretty dependant on playing in Open and that's quite a hotly contested topic right now. Still, I don't think Solo people would be sad about missing this particular feature much.
I don't know that I'd personally be taking advantage of this feature right away. I also haven't touched a number of things in the game but I'm happy they are there for me to explore later.

This could lead to more "senseless" violence for no other reason that a player looking for a challenge.

 

[rxay579]

I made this suggestion in a similar fashion awhile ago - essentially I think the star map should show any player who is wanted and has been seen by any other player or any other security service. That is we have a heat signature of wanted players enabling traders to stay clear and or bounty hunters to go after them. It is really a missed opportunity here as it would really allow for player role play based interaction easily.

In fact it can be done much the way is "report crime" - have a flag that is "report wanted" - you see a wanted player you call the po-po.

Finally this would not only add more consequence for pirates but would actually make it more fun. Ducking and weaving, perhaps killing anyone who may betray their locations.. could spin off quite a lot of fun mechanics.

but first they need to fix combat logging or its moot. Players will just pull their plugs when shields are about to go down or they feel they will lose.

I think the star map needs to have room for more than one overlay at a time so that we can look at trade routes, factor in security activity, and find scoopable stars without creating an impromptu spreadsheet; but that's getting off topic.

I am hopeful that combat logging is being looked into and addressed as well but that doesn't mean the rest of us can't have nice things.

 

[DMC831]

As well-meaning features have caused unintended consequences before, I wonder what, if any, this would have.

I was trying to ponder that as well, and I hoped that by keep notoriety level high to qualify as trackable it'd likely prevent players stumbling into being hunted down.

Plus, I think it's fine if they go play in Solo if they don't wanna be tracked-- if part of the goal is to have less senseless ganks, then that'd help, but I assume most PVPers would enjoy the challenge and players who wanna play as tough bounty hunters would enjoy the chase.

Currently you can see a Top Wanted Bounties list and see the last station they docked, but of course that's way too vague and the galaxy is too big for that to be effective. And then you just hope they're online the same time as you and hadn't gone too far away from their last station-- it's kinda useless, though could be the start of a better system (not necessarily the system I proposed, but I'd be happy if there is ANY way to track wanted CMDRs).

 

[mdmaniac44]

This gets a +1 from me.

While it does rest on people playing in Open, it's a PvP-oriented game mechanic so those who are interested in using it will already be in Open. Those who are solely ganking NPCs can play in Solo or endure the consequences of their actions by being hunted by CMDRs. It gives players a participatory choice, which I like. It also gives the rest of us a fun opportunity to be the bounty hunters and team up against notorious CMDRs. In fact, let me make that a +3

 

[DMC831]

In fact it can be done much the way is "report crime" - have a flag that is "report wanted" - you see a wanted player you call the po-po.

Finally this would not only add more consequence for pirates but would actually make it more fun. Ducking and weaving, perhaps killing anyone who may betray their locations.. could spin off quite a lot of fun mechanics.

The "report crime" feature is a good one to point out! Plus it establishes precedent that the Pilots Federation tracks and reports such things, so having a truly notorious criminal be trackable could prolly fit snugly into established lore.

 

[DMC831]

Hrm, okay, a couple more things.

This seems a lot like an feature pretty dependant on playing in Open and that's quite a hotly contested topic right now. Still, I don't think Solo people would be sad about missing this particular feature much.
I don't know that I'd personally be taking advantage of this feature right away. I also haven't touched a number of things in the game but I'm happy they are there for me to explore later.

This could lead to more "senseless" violence for no other reason that a player looking for a challenge.

Since it's a PVP mechanic, then I think it's fine that it's only geared for Open. Solo players don't need to worry about player-criminals after all, and finding criminals in Solo is as easy as going to a RES. This is meant to be be a way to both police CMDR-murder in Open, deter senseless murdering, and finally give bounty hunters a tool to actually track a notorious fugitive and ideally help the roleplay overall.

One could wriggle out of this in a few ways-- hopping over to Solo (but then they can't gank anyone so it prevents the PVP that many players worry about), going somewhere isolated (same effect; can be good for roleplay if they gotta lay low), or simply logging off (not very fun, but it'd happen), but I think most dedicated player criminals would welcome the challenge and the player bounty hunters would welcome the resources to actually go and hunt a bad dude down.

If Solo had some mega bounties for players to hunt down, I think that'd be pretty equal so no one feels like they're missing out on content. Combat pay is so bad already, I'd love it if there were special multi-million space buck bounties that PVE players could go track down that uses similar mechanics (a notice that a criminal of Notoriety Level 9 is in XYZ system, go get 'em!).

I wouldn't wanna propose forcing people into Open play if they don't enjoy it (I just want people to have fun, PVE and PVP alike), but if it becomes a problem that someone kills a buncha CMDRs and then hides in Solo (I don't think it'd be a huge issue, but it could be) and there's no way to hunt them, then the Notoriety timer could maybe only go down if you remain in Open if you had commited a player-kill in Open (PVE kills shouldn't count if ya ask me, but others may disagree).

That'd prevent trolling players and then hiding in Solo, if that is indeed a common enough issue. And a challenge given to the criminal who decided to kill another player illegally.

 

[rxay579]

Since it's a PVP mechanic, then I think it's fine that it's only geared for Open. Solo players don't need to worry about player-criminals after all, and finding criminals in Solo is as easy as going to a RES. This is meant to be be a way to both police CMDR-murder in Open, deter senseless murdering, and finally give bounty hunters a tool to actually track a notorious fugitive and ideally help the roleplay overall.

One could wriggle out of this in a few ways-- hopping over to Solo (but then they can't gank anyone so it prevents the PVP that many players worry about), going somewhere isolated (same effect; can be good for roleplay if they gotta lay low), or simply logging off (not very fun, but it'd happen), but I think most dedicated player criminals would welcome the challenge and the player bounty hunters would welcome the resources to actually go and hunt a bad dude down.

If Solo had some mega bounties for players to hunt down, I think that'd be pretty equal so no one feels like they're missing out on content. Combat pay is so bad already, I'd love it if there were special multi-million space buck bounties that PVE players could go track down that uses similar mechanics (a notice that a criminal of Notoriety Level 9 is in XYZ system, go get 'em!).

I wouldn't wanna propose forcing people into Open play if they don't enjoy it (I just want people to have fun, PVE and PVP alike), but if it becomes a problem that someone kills a buncha CMDRs and then hides in Solo (I don't think it'd be a huge issue, but it could be) and there's no way to hunt them, then the Notoriety timer could maybe only go down if you remain in Open if you had commited a player-kill in Open (PVE kills shouldn't count if ya ask me, but others may disagree).

That'd prevent trolling players and then hiding in Solo, if that is indeed a common enough issue. And a challenge given to the criminal who decided to kill another player illegally.

Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing your point and liking your idea; just playing devil's advocate here and to get my mind working on the idea.

Adding a similar mechanic to Solo seems like a good reach out for balance between modes but I don't know of any other features in Elite that are (currently) mode dependant [edit: with different modes behaving differently]. Even the PP in Open proposal only discusses changing your player state (e.g. merits/cargo) when you change game mode.

[edit]
A single mechanic that applies across all game modes would probably be a better pitch and I think the existing ATR from C&P could give Solo players their reprisal fix.

I'm also not sure how to prevent someone deliberately gaming the system by griefing and then hiding in Solo to burn off their Notoriety. The worst case I can think of is they do their griefing right before quitting for the evening, then checking back in the morning for a fresh start. Their cost is just electricity to keep their system running.
Perhaps Notoriety could be limited to X amount of loss in a single game instance so that sitting in one place wouldn't bleed off the whole amount; timer resets on normal instance change (log out/in, jump or drop SC, jump in Hyperspace, etc); that could get around the "exploit" of just AFKing away your consequences. [edit: They could still lose Notoriety in Solo, but that is ~10 hours they are not griefing in Open.] That's getting into an entirely different thing though.

 

[Frag]

Now in terms of balancing open vs solo etc. Number of things need to be done - perhaps rebuy being "revisited" that is a player who is not wanted and killed perhaps should not have a significant rebuy. I mean my Corvette is 50m rebuy thats a 1hr grind or more in non "cheese" money missions. As a PvE loadout, a PvP orientated ship such as a FDL would eat me up and spit me out and I'd do nothing at it. I guess there are many angles FDev need to consider but enticing more players into Open is a good one. Likewise addressing the divide between PvP and PvE loadouts - its tough again but not impossible.

I played another game which essentially had huge issues with this being "the division" the player base was broken into PvE and PvP builds and really cost the game quite a bit by dividing the community. Sure I can change my PvE boat into PvP buy having the modules engineered and ready but that would mean I would have to approach open as PvP only and solo as PvE which is a sad outcome.

I don't know about others but the untapped potential in this game after 5 years is immense. The core of it, that is the flight, the weapons etc are all pretty fun. I mean the space is amazing place and after a 2 year hiatus I am back in love with it like it was just release!

 

[ethelred]

This a great idea.

Only a few changes:-

Mode locked to Open after X amount of CMDR kills.

When notoriety X is reached, the CMDR in question finds out about an engineer who can sell them or add an affect to a module to make them less visible - but not completely invisible to Bounty Hunters.

The biggest bounty Hunters and Notorious CMDRs are reported in the news - making them both High Profile and hopefully competitive with each other.

 

[mdmaniac44]

Remember that to lose notoriety, you have to not murder anyone (including npcs) for 2 hours of flying time per point. So, if some griefer gets up to 7 noto points, that's 14 hours flying time in solo (not parked at a station, not logged out) before that noto goes away.

As for the PvE vs PvP comment from Frag; I've been playing in Open mode for a while now and have yet to have anyone attack me. Even done a CG in a T9. No matter what FD does, there is no reason to think that open mode would become a PvP bloodbath.

 

[Frag]

Remember that to lose notoriety, you have to not murder anyone (including npcs) for 2 hours of flying time per point. So, if some griefer gets up to 7 noto points, that's 14 hours flying time in solo (not parked at a station, not logged out) before that noto goes away.

As for the PvE vs PvP comment from Frag; I've been playing in Open mode for a while now and have yet to have anyone attack me. Even done a CG in a T9. No matter what FD does, there is no reason to think that open mode would become a PvP bloodbath.

Oh don't misunderstand, I don't think that Open would become a bloodbath at all; what I am saying is that there are some fundamental issues which cause non PvP players to either play in closed group or stay out of open. One is loadout, another is rebuy, another is knowing where the rogue element is (god damn wish they had the internet in 3305), finally traders need a way to protect themselves ..

I haven't been attacked since I have come back, but had a heap at various CG's and I enjoyed it. I guess flying in an Elite Vette may make some shy away a little

End of the day - I would love to see everyone in Open. Lets face it there isn't a huge player base so the more in Open the merrier. Anyway Im just keen on getting things ready for Thargoid hunting

 

[mdmaniac44]

I think I agree with pretty much everything you say there. I play (almost) exclusively in Open mode for no reason other than that I feel it's right. I'm not a PvP'er at all and I'm not relishing when I eventually catch the eye of some griefer, knowing full well that I'll be flying a T9 full of Meta-alloys and the rebuy screen will make me cry. I understand why lots of players would rather avoid that experience.

But yeah, traders, in particular, need protection. My space cow has a hard time doing a loop of shame, yet alone beating the interdiction mini-game. If I can't escape an interdiction my only recourse is submit-boost-jump... But the space cow is slow, too. It's unlikely I'd survive an encounter with a high-alpha griefer.

Idea: a Class 3 weapon that launches a swarm of tiny drones that obstruct -but do not damage- any ship in the surrounding kilometer. You couldn't use them offensively because they'd obstruct you, too, if you turned around to attack. They'd just give you a few seconds to locate your exit point, charge the FSD and . Restricting to class 3 means they can't be used by the smaller, faster, ships in lieu of proper equipment.

 

[Teh Smoo]

Hrm, okay, a couple more things.

This seems a lot like an feature pretty dependant on playing in Open and that's quite a hotly contested topic right now. Still, I don't think Solo people would be sad about missing this particular feature much.
I don't know that I'd personally be taking advantage of this feature right away. I also haven't touched a number of things in the game but I'm happy they are there for me to explore later.

This could lead to more "senseless" violence for no other reason that a player looking for a challenge.

And that would be fine. If people want to go on murder tears in solo/private and only deal with NPCs or their friends, how does that hurt anyone else? If you're feeling GTA, you just go nuts, then idle near a station for a day-ish if you want to go back to normal infamy.

And if they're doing it in open, they probably want interaction. Whatever happens, happens. This just means that instead of murder hobos getting to choose EVERY aspect of the engagements, they start getting uninvited visitors when they might rather have softer targets.

 

[DMC831]

And if they're doing it in open, they probably want interaction. Whatever happens, happens. This just means that instead of murder hobos getting to choose EVERY aspect of the engagements, they start getting uninvited visitors when they might rather have softer targets.

Yeah, exactly! That's what I'm trying to get at-- people who just wanna gank will then have a tougher time doing it if human CMDRs can track them down and hunt them, which deters senseless ganks, and the people who wanna RP as criminals and WANNA have a cool battle will get the interaction they want. And the bounty hunters get to actually find their bounty easily, changing the power dynamic of when and where the fight happens since it won't be the "criminal" always deciding the terms of the fight.