Combat Logging Punishment Proposal

[CMDR Spadino]

Important note, FDev have said they will be monitoring this thread, if you think you have a good alternative proposal, or like one of the ones in this thread please do join the discussion.
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From the feedback over the last day or so it seems clear that there are lots of things in the game that some people consider to be exploits, but one that stands out as fairly universally accepted to be a 'cheat' is Combat Logging.

There are lots of innocent reasons why a client may disconnect ungracefully, and unlike the recent Engineers cheat it's much harder to determine whether a CLogger did so deliberately or not.

I'd like to propose a simple 1hr ban from the game following any disconnect*, no matter what the reason.


*whilst the ship is in danger.

If a client is having connection difficulties, waiting a while before trying to reconnect is probably a good idea anyway, if they are genuinely trying to diagnose why the game crashed or their internet connection dropped, pinging the server & other stuff can be done in this time anyway.

If the client CLogs to avoid being ganked the gankers 'win' by preventing the CLogger from reaching the station (for an hour) etc, adding something to the gameplay rather than simply avoiding it.

If the client CLogs to avoid punishment (eg spawncamper being attacked by the AA) then the newbies have been given some breathing space where the ganker cannot simply relog & carry on popping sidewinders.


Would this be a reasonable compromise all round?.

Not at all, I'm sorry but this is not possible in any way. Not all players live in country with reliable internet connection or stable electricity supply. I live in Brazil where, many times per day, even paying something like 40 euro monthly fee, I experience connection resets. When it's raining more than average - do you actually ever experienced a tropical rain? - the electricity can drop for some minutes, or just for some seconds (or hours, or days...).
I know there are many players in similar situations, and we all paid the same for the game. Do you actually think that we all could be penalized for connection resets? You really need to look outside your conmfortable bubble and realize there are many different circunstances that can not be addressed so superficially.

 

[Sunleader]

The 15 sec timer could be extended to 60 secs, however I believe that would actually increase combat logging. As an idea having the ship remain (to certain destruction) would (I think) not be easy, with the same net effect as simply guaranteeing the rebuy screen on a forced disconnect.

Guaranteed rebuy is probably ruled out simply by being an unreasonable punishment for those rare instances where the player accidentally disconnects (or the game crashes) while the ship is in danger.

Rare Instances is good xD
After several Updates I had 2-3 Week Periods where I disconnected 5-6 times a day the moment I touched Open or Group....
Gladly was always fixed within a few Weeks.

But depending on where you are etc this is by far not some rare case....


Worse its something even more common for PvP
Because one of the most common Disconnect Reasons is the Matchmaking Error. Which occurs when your supposed to Join an Instance together with someone else.
Which is as you realize the case when someone interdicts you or when you want to join an zone with a wingmate.

So an arrangement like this would end up very often with being interdicted and disconnected thus the other guy getting a free kill.
Or respective (if someone who knows hes got this trouble going pirating) him interdicting someone just to float in space behind him lol

 

[Captain Willard]

tbh

I'd no more want an NPC to fly my Cutter, than I'd want the girlfriend to take my Ninja ZX-10R out for a 'spin'.... [where is it]

Funny. I built a super charged Mazda RX8 and the misses drives it on tracks all over the Midwest. Ye GF might actually drive better than you. weeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[bitstorm]

Yep. I feel the same. So far for me, in a perfect ED world, I'd go with the following:
1) The fish beta.
Test builds and duke it out to your hearts content.
2) Automated reaction to disconnect.
The player will have to log in to the same mode they were in when they lost connection (for whatever reason) and preferably to the same instance when possible.
3) Manual rout.
When enough evidence is brought against a player to satisfy FDs criteria, shadowbans of increasing length are applied.

(2) is an interesting idea.

Can I ask though, how are we defining "lost connection", given the complications of this issue it's important be explicit.

I mean clearly people lose connection to each other pretty regularly with more than a couple of players in an instance.

Maybe you actually mean a ungraceful exit from the game? So if a user is at the "game mode" selection screen, a previous graceful exit is required for the last mode used not to be greyed out?

 

[Robert Maynard]

(2) is interesting.

Can I ask though, how are we defining "lost connection", given the complications of this issue it's important be explicit.

Given that the player would be returning to the same mode that they had chosen to play in that session, does it matter how "lost connection" is defined?

 

[Ozram]

(2) is interesting.

Can I ask though, how are we defining "lost connection", given the complications of this issue it's important be explicit.

Lost connection either accidentally or intentionally so long as it was not a menu exit. All it would do is make you log back in through the same mode as you were in when the connection was lost. In that way, it would practically be a qol improvement for those who were accidentally disconnected in a wing etc, a non issue for anyone else and likely a self imposed time out for the intentional logger (if in pvp).

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I'm all for a minor increase in the legal combat log timer, but I have two issues with it that would need looking at:

1) 60 is too long. (Seriously, count to 60, imagine that!). Maybe 30 seconds?
Or adaptive for different situations. Non combat danger is 15 second. Interdictions are 120 seconds, combat is 60...? Or something.

2) The current exit menu is not real life friendly. When logging out in combat, the menu needs to let you confirm this action, and log you out automatically when the timer reaches zero. With a cancel button.
If you had to wait for 60~ seconds to confirm your exit, all phone calls and parcels would be missed. Lol
(Postmen don't even wait 10 seconds!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Ozram]

I'm all for a minor increase in the legal combat log timer, but I have two issues with it that would need looking at:

1) 60 is too long. (Seriously, count to 60, imagine that!). Maybe 30 seconds?
Or adaptive for different situations. Non combat danger is 15 second. Interdictions are 120 seconds, combat is 60...? Or something.

2) The current exit menu is not real life friendly. When logging out in combat, the menu needs to let you confirm this action, and log you out automatically when the timer reaches zero. With a cancel button.
If you had to wait for 60~ seconds to confirm your exit, all phone calls and parcels would be missed. Lol
(Postmen don't even wait 10 seconds!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

Yeah real life, no matter how much we pretend the game is important, trumps all. Even the 15 seconds are tough. Frankly I think it's enough but I like the idea of a reset every time you get hit by a players weapons. I'd even bring it down to 10 seconds but with full reset each time a player hits you.

 

[FrogsFriend]

....
2) The current exit menu is not real life friendly. When logging out in combat, the menu needs to let you confirm this action, and log you out automatically when the timer reaches zero. With a cancel button.
If you had to wait for 60~ seconds to confirm your exit, all phone calls and parcels would be missed. Lol
(Postmen don't even wait 10 seconds!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

This should be implemented regardless of any other changes. When you've gotta go, you've gotta go.

 

[Robert Maynard]

2) The current exit menu is not real life friendly. When logging out in combat, the menu needs to let you confirm this action, and log you out automatically when the timer reaches zero. With a cancel button.

Yeah real life, no matter how much we pretend the game is important, trumps all. Even the 15 seconds are tough. Frankly I think it's enough but I like the idea of a reset every time you get hit by a players weapons. I'd even bring it down to 10 seconds but with full reset each time a player hits you.

This should be implemented regardless of any other changes. When you've gotta go, you've gotta go.

Exactly.

 

[Ozram]

Exactly.

������

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Robert Maynard again.

 

[Vorxian]

I'd even bring it down to 10 seconds but with full reset each time a player hits you.

The problem is that the game locks you into combat. You'll just have a clown in a sidewinder, doing little to no damage to you but holding your ship in game indefinitely just by shooting a pulse laser at you after you log. It's not very fair considering that the only purpose of the reset timer is so someone can see you kablooey, for probably absolutely no ingame reason.

My question to FDEV, is: is it worth it to go through all that code change to compliment absolutely no in game reason for the commander to die... other than to stroke someone's e-peen?

 

[Ozram]

The problem is that the game locks you into combat. You'll just have a clown in a sidewinder, doing little to no damage to you but holding your ship in game indefinitely just by shooting a pulse laser at you after you log. It's not very fair considering that the only purpose of the reset timer is so someone can see you kablooey, for probably absolutely no ingame reason.

My question to FDEV, is: is it worth it to go through all that code change to compliment absolutely no in game reason for the commander to die... other than to stroke someone's e-peen?

What? That scenario of yours will happen.... never? Only reason to argue against it is if you are accustomed to a menu log as form of self defense.

 

[Robert Maynard]

What? That scenario of yours will happen.... never? Only reason to argue against it is if you are accustomed to a menu log as form of self defense.

Frontier are on record as considering that menu exit, at any time, is legitimate. The inference is that a player is entitled to choose to leave the game gracefully, regardless of the wishes of any other players in the instance. A resettable timer, however short initially, would fundamentally change that.

 

[Ozram]

Frontier are on record as considering that menu exit, at any time, is legitimate. The inference is that a player is entitled to choose to leave the game gracefully, regardless of the wishes of any other players in the instance. A resettable timer, however short initially, would fundamentally change that.

Ah, that being the case, is the end of that.

 

[Perseus]

The problem is that the game locks you into combat. You'll just have a clown in a sidewinder, doing little to no damage to you but holding your ship in game indefinitely just by shooting a pulse laser at you after you log. It's not very fair considering that the only purpose of the reset timer is so someone can see you kablooey, for probably absolutely no ingame reason.

My question to FDEV, is: is it worth it to go through all that code change to compliment absolutely no in game reason for the commander to die... other than to stroke someone's e-peen?

Does this 'Sidewinder Clown' know that your real life doorbell is ringing?
I feel you do need to be locked into combat, especially against another player. There are already legitimate ingame mechanics for evading combat with waking. The convenient inconvenience of real life is likely to be used as a cheaters justification to avoid combat in open mode. If you're expecting a flurry of telephone calls or storm of parcel deliveries, or whatever, it might be a better idea to play in a non open mode.
You said there is no ingame reason for killing another Cmdr but there is - it's just that you don't give credence to these reasons. In fact, you cite stroking of the e-peen despite the fact that all players are essentially fantasizing at being space Cmdrs in the game, regardless of their preferred play style/profession.
Open is meant to have spontaneous PvP occur as part of it's existence; there are other modes available to avoid this if you wish. Cheating shouldn't be allowed for any reason, including logging in Open combat because the doorbell rings. Again, other modes exist where immediate game termination isn't going to affect other players.
I like the 10 second reset idea, at least in open mode.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Cheating shouldn't be allowed for any reason, including logging in Open combat because the doorbell rings.

.... except for the fact that using the Menu Exit, delayed or not, cannot be considered cheating - as Frontier permit it (proven by the fact that it is possible to log out at any time when "in danger"). Also:

Hello Commanders!

To clarify: the official stance on exiting the game via the menu, at any point, is that it is legitimate. I suspect at some point we may increase the "in danger" countdown, but for now you just have to wait fifteen seconds.

However, we can't speak for how other Commanders view such actions.

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

 

[Perseus]

.... except for the fact that using the Menu Exit, delayed or not, cannot be considered cheating - as Frontier permit it (proven by the fact that it is possible to log out at any time when "in danger"). Also:

I don't understand your point, Robert.
I did say logging, not menu exiting. I was talking about extending or resetting the exit timer in open player combat. I don't have an issue with the option to have an exit; we are debating the perimeters of it, are we not? We seek to expel cheating from the game, do we not?

 

[Ozram]

I don't understand your point, Robert.
I did say logging, not menu exiting. I was talking about extending or resetting the exit timer in open player combat. I don't have an issue with the option to have an exit; we are debating the perimeters of it, are we not? We seek to expel cheating from the game, do we not?

I think what he's saying is it's unlikely FD is all that interested in that sort of change as they deem it entirely legit, so the proposals they're interested in deal solely with the issue of the intentional disconnect sans menu.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't understand your point, Robert.
I did say logging, not menu exiting. I was talking about extending or resetting the exit timer in open player combat. I don't have an issue with the option to have an exit; we are debating the perimeters of it, are we not? We seek to expel cheating from the game, do we not?

Seeking to deal with cheating, yes. Using the menu exit is not cheating. There is no timer for Combat Logging.

This thread is about potential consequences for Combat Logging (per Frontier's definition).