Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

That's also an interesting question: when it became much quicker to scan them, why did the ratio go down immediately?

Quick abandonment due to the boring pan click twiddle mechanic. How could anyone deny this. I think enderby had an animated gif to demonstrate the metaphor.

Its the same effect as people leaving behind lollies they don't like from a variety bag. Nothing more sinister.

Click click?

 

[marx]

Not enjoyably perhaps. But here is a little vid I made a few years ago to demonstrate how absurdly dull exploration became with the honk-scoop-system-map-jump routine:

Honk-jump exploration

You could make a new one this time around too. The difference would be that instead of the system map, you call up the FSS to see the barcode, and then move on. Honk-scoop-FSS-jump.

They handled mining in a superior fashion. They added options for gameplay. It's not completely about the money. Money was out of control long before core mining.

That's true. Money-making exploits popped up shortly after the game launched, and from the first instance when FD decided not to roll back the credits thus gained (as MMOs tend to do), credits became more and more meaningless.
The difference this time with void opals (and others) was that Frontier deliberately made them sell for this much under special circumstances. So it wasn't unintended.
With exploration, you could say that reaching Elite in exploration was made so quick unintendedly, as they didn't touch the rank requirements while the payouts went through the roof.

Not just no, but hell no.

I have no problem adding back in some of the _DS functionality as optional modules, but I don't want any part of those things added back into the FSS. It's bad enough that systems that others have explored get spoiled for me in this manner. The last thing I need is having 90% of unexplored systems getting spoiled in this manner. I explore for the joy of discovery, and its hard to discover anything for yourself if automated systems are doing it for you instantly at the press of a button.

Unfortunately for you, assuming it's not reworked, then that's likely where the FSS will be headed. The current stated goals are making the game more accessible to new players, so QoL updates to exploration would make the FSS easier / faster. As the data shows, players are scanning less and less per system, so Frontier might think there's a need to make them scan more. The easiest way to do that will be to automate it more. The game does know everything that we have to use the FSS to force it to reveal, after all, with the sole exception of the exact locations and numbers of POI on a given landable body.
Also, you specifically might hope that such things would come via optional modules so they don't spoil your personal gameplay, but Frontier would likely be reluctant to do it that way with the FSS, as I don't think they'd like to add new internal slots yet again, nor risk some player displeasure by adding "mandatory" modules now, after they made D-scanners built-in.

It's really so frustrating not being able to use it for that when at the same time the honk autopopulates it with lagrange clouds and it's the only way to locate those because they don't show up in the FSS.

Hm? NSPs do show up on the bar, but they can be difficult to spot, as they are the smallest squiggly line, far enough on the left side of the bar where explorers don't tend to look.

Quick abandonment due to the boring pan click twiddle mechanic. How could anyone deny this. I think enderby had an animated gif to demonstrate the metaphor.

Hey, I'd like to see that gif. But more seriously, if it were the quick abandonment, then why wasn't it the same with AWs?
Although there, there is that before the FSS made them obvious and scannable without flying, people would scan half as many as after. To be precise, AW / systems would increase gradually, then shot up to twice as before when Chapter Four was launched, and only now has it almost decreased back to pre-FSS levels. (Meanwhile, ELW / systems is well below pre-FSS levels.)

 

[Sunyavadin]

Hm? NSPs do show up on the bar, but they can be difficult to spot, as they are the smallest squiggly line, far enough on the left side of the bar where explorers don't tend to look.

Yeah, but if you want to target them, it's not like you can do so from the sysmap after FSSing stuff, like you generally do with planets, and if you are specifically looking for them it's way more convenient to just look left after the honk before you populate the panel with all the planets in the system, to know if any are there and target them. Almost like they were designed for the old DS mechanics and this aspect was overlooked when incorporating them into the FSS.

 

[marx]

Yeah, but if you want to target them, it's not like you can do so from the sysmap after FSSing stuff, like you generally do with planets, and if you are specifically looking for them it's way more convenient to just look left after the honk before you populate the panel with all the planets in the system, to know if any are there and target them. Almost like they were designed for the old DS mechanics and this aspect was overlooked when incorporating them into the FSS.

Oh yeah, good point on the system map. Same applies to all the other space POIs, of course. And yeah, I've mentioned earlier as well that the best tool for finding them is the left panel, not the FSS. Now that you mention it, I find it likely that the new content (and the Codex) were done before Frontier worked on that.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Hey, I'd like to see that gif. But more seriously, if it were the quick abandonment, then why wasn't it the same with AWs?
Although there, there is that before the FSS made them obvious and scannable without flying, people would scan half as many as after. To be precise, AW / systems would increase gradually, then shot up to twice as before when Chapter Four was launched, and only now has it almost decreased back to pre-FSS levels. (Meanwhile, ELW / systems is well below pre-FSS levels.)

A couple of possible reasons why AWs spiked differently:

1. Whilst the brown AWs were obvious from the SysMap, the white ones looked an awful lot like ice balls, so the FSS made it easier to detect them, whereas ELWs were always pretty easy to spot and the only thing you'd confuse them with was WWs, which people would scan anyway.

2. The goldilocks zone for AWs is further out than ELWs and WWs, and they payout is less, so people were less likely to scan them. Again, the FSS impact on AWs is less than the impact on ELWs.

Couple those factors with ELWs being less obvious on the spectrum and it starts to make sense.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Unfortunately for you, assuming it's not reworked, then that's likely where the FSS will be headed. The current stated goals are making the game more accessible to new players, so QoL updates to exploration would make the FSS easier / faster. As the data shows, players are scanning less and less per system, so Frontier might think there's a need to make them scan more. The easiest way to do that will be to automate it more. The game does know everything that we have to use the FSS to force it to reveal, after all, with the sole exception of the exact locations and numbers of POI on a given landable body.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that. I don’t see gloom and doom in your data. I see a change in demographics, as the focus of exploration moves towards planetary exploration.

Also, you specifically might hope that such things would come via optional modules so they don't spoil your personal gameplay, but Frontier would likely be reluctant to do it that way with the FSS, as I don't think they'd like to add new internal slots yet again, nor risk some player displeasure by adding "mandatory" modules now, after they made D-scanners built-in.

Given that Frontier has stated repeatedly that _DS functionality runs counter to their plans for exploration, it’s not really something I’m hoping for... or worried about for that matter. It’s also something I don’t believe I’ll have to worry about until 2020, which is why I’m enjoying the current iteration as much as I can (time permitted). If the worst does happen, I’ll be back in the Bubble, and at the very least I’ll have the new (and perhaps revised) BGS to relearn, plus the “new era.” Much like all changes I haven’t liked that Frontier has made, I’ll either adapt to them or ignore them.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Ahh, the old 'appeal to reality' argument.
We have self-driving cars and pilotless drones, so we shouldn't expect to fly our ships at all. See how pointless that argument is?

I agree! But my comment was countering the "appeal to reality" argument of somebody else.
I had been responding to:
"I expect to have to travel to things to discover the actual details about them."

 

[Darkfyre99]

A couple of possible reasons why AWs spiked differently:

1. Whilst the brown AWs were obvious from the SysMap, the white ones looked an awful lot like ice balls, so the FSS made it easier to detect them, whereas ELWs were always pretty easy to spot and the only thing you'd confuse them with was WWs, which people would scan anyway.

2. The goldilocks zone for AWs is further out than ELWs and WWs, and they payout is less, so people were less likely to scan them. Again, the FSS impact on AWs is less than the impact on ELWs.

Couple those factors with ELWs being less obvious on the spectrum and it starts to make sense.

^^^
This.

I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that a lot of cherry pickers have probably looked at Qohen Leth’s FSA diagram, and reduced it further to some kind of rule like “look above ‘AL’ for the big bucks.” If that’s the case, then they’re probably missing a large chunk of the size outliers for both Earthlike and Water Worlds while accidentally scanning the size outliers of Ammonia Worlds, since the borders between planet types on the FSA isn’t nearly as clear cut as that diagram implies.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

^^^
This.

I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that a lot of cherry pickers have probably looked at Qohen Leth’s FSA diagram, and reduced it further to some kind of rule like “look above ‘AL’ for the big bucks.” If that’s the case, then they’re probably missing a large chunk of the size outliers for both Earthlike and Water Worlds while accidentally scanning the size outliers of Ammonia Worlds, since the borders between planet types on the FSA isn’t nearly as clear cut as that diagram implies.

This is why I'm hoping @marx can put together the stats for WWs.
My prediction is that they spike less than AWs - since they were easy to spot previously - but tail off at a similar rate.

 

[Enderby]

The problem is that it is not enjoyable to use.

The results are useful but operating it is really lame.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The problem is that it is not enjoyable to use.

The results are useful but operating it is really lame.

It would have been okay as an option. I can see how people can enjoy it, but also how it can get real tedious very quickly.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Completely Insane:

In 2021, you can clean save to a new galaxy, where the biggest ship is a Cobra 3, only planetary ports, and there are no engineers.

Better, promise it as an "exclusive".

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

It would have been okay as an option. I can see how people can enjoy it, but also how it can get real tedious very quickly.

I can't. I've tried.

If frontier were as adamant and hardline to demand that choice should be removed, the only justification would be if the mechanic that replaced it was capable of being the entire pillar.

The mechanic of discovering something is literally one activation of a button. A click. The panning is terrible with both joysticks, mice, hotas thumbsticks.. though it kinda makes sense on the console controllers that developers probably have at their workstations. The tuning doesn't add anything to the experience. There's no depth to it, its about as complex as my 2yr olds mobile matching games. The status is binary on/off. Theres no variability permitting decision or skill for effected outcomes from player agency.

It seems the new title rebel galaxy outlaw is doing something similar with their quick travel, point and click and you're there. But that's not a sign of gamers, they're using as the option which removes the mechanic entirely.

Click click.

Just to fill the gaps, certainly nothing was better than something bad. Especially since nothing by accidental nature dumped the exploration experience on an activity that was 100% pure, pristine player agency. Yes better.

As a supporting evidence, new mining. The glowing rocks provide something that the fss doesn't. Before the learning experience is complete, distant identification of the glowing ones is real a learned skill. And then even once done, there's depth, because a player has a variable choice, they could just min max like a chump, or they could decide they want to go for deposits, do surface mining, whatever they want.. like the rest of the elite sandbox. Its just not fair how exploration came out limp.

 

[Quantis Trap]

The FSS is a good idea with an unpolished execution. I think a few small tweaks which are mentioned here could make it very acceptable to 90% of the players.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

The FSS is a good idea with an unpolished execution. I think a few small tweaks which are mentioned here could make it very acceptable to 90% of the players.

Good luck with that.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I can't. I've tried.

If frontier were as adamant and hardline to demand that choice should be removed, the only justification would be if the mechanic that replaced it was capable of being the entire pillar.

The mechanic of discovering something is literally one activation of a button. A click. The panning is terrible with both joysticks, mice, hotas thumbsticks.. though it kinda makes sense on the console controllers that developers probably have at their workstations. The tuning doesn't add anything to the experience. There's no depth to it, its about as complex as my 2yr olds mobile matching games. The status is binary on/off. Theres no variability permitting decision or skill for effected outcomes from player agency.

It seems the new title rebel galaxy outlaw is doing something similar with their quick travel, point and click and you're there. But that's not a sign of gamers, they're using as the option which removes the mechanic entirely.

Click click.

Just to fill the gaps, certainly nothing was better than something bad. Especially since nothing by accidental nature dumped the exploration experience on an activity that was 100% pure, pristine player agency. Yes better.

As a supporting evidence, new mining. The glowing rocks provide something that the fss doesn't. Before the learning experience is complete, distant identification of the glowing ones is real a learned skill. And then even once done, there's depth, because a player has a variable choice, they could just min max like a chump, or they could decide they want to go for deposits, do surface mining, whatever they want.. like the rest of the elite sandbox. Its just not fair how exploration came out limp.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I'd personally ever find it fun, but it's got a certain 'slot machine' aspect to it that is well known to be addictive - keep pulling the lever and you may win an ELW.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

The FSS is a good idea with an unpolished execution. I think a few small tweaks which are mentioned here could make it very acceptable to 90% of the players.

It's probably acceptable to 90% of the players already, since it's quick, simple and pays lots for minimal effort, and FDev has been courting players who like that kind of thing since Michael Brookes left.

Yes people, I'm aware that some of you like it for different reasons (I'm looking at you @Darkfyre99), but you're just as much in the minority as the 10% of us who simply don't like it.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

It's probably acceptable to 90% of the players already, since it's quick, simple and pays lots for minimal effort, and FDev has been courting players who like that kind of thing since Michael Brookes left.

I've heard at least 3 content creators on youtube throw down the gauntlet "as long as I can do it faster it will be good", and frontier are pretty attune to "social" so you can see how that came about.

Yeah its real.

But like as any adult, you're still responsible because those same kids have a very weak attention span, and if what you give them is a cookie clicker they're going to go away anyway, or never were fundamentally interested in exploration in the first place. Hmm the plot thickens.

Btw I've never understood this. Elite doesn't even come close to have the content for this demographic. Its a simulator sandbox. But frontier can't let it go for some reason still think... euro truck simulator really, really doesn't get pushed at kids playing fortnight. They're happy being a different genre...

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

I don't have the patience for exploration all like this. I love that I can if I want but it gets old real quick for me. And I'm not even a kid.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I'd personally ever find it fun, but it's got a certain 'slot machine' aspect to it that is well known to be addictive - keep pulling the lever and you may win an ELW.

The ADS had the same 'slot machine' concept.