Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[Sysmon]

Mining was made more varied by adding the new tools. It is a lot more interesting now, but maybe not that balanced. And looking for stuff to mine has not been made that much more interesting; we got the DSS probes to find hot spots, but we don't really need them. In fact, it is often just as good or better to mine outside them. Then there is the oddity of core mining giving access to a subset of mostly valuable minerals that cannot be found elsewhere, as if the rocks grew around those deposits rather than being fragments of larger bodies. We still cannot really mine on planets except for a few materials. The mining tools could be made a lot smarter and much more functional. They are just a bundle of game mechanics.

The FSS is not the same. Yes, it mimicks a radio telescope and adds a bit of variability to exploration game play. Combined with the DSS it now gives us the ability to find PoIs that we before had to use methods to find that essentially has existed since before map making was invented. Still a bit clunky and half-baked, a lot more could be done with it even in conjunction with the mining tools (because let's face it, when is exploration not about finding resources?). It doesn't solve the issue that not much is done with the data we gather or how we use or display it.

What the FSS doesn't do that the new mining tools did, is being an addition to existing game mechanics. We did not have an exploration tool before. We had a button to push, and some flying and waiting to do. So we can't really compare the FSS addition to the addition of mining tools. Since it was an addition to nothing.

At least with the FSS/DSS combo we have the basic exploration tools in place. Now we just need it built upon. We need it fleshed out better. Adding the old ADS functionality back in is not the answer, that adds nothing useful. That would be like giving the mining laser the ability to mine void opals; it would render the new tools redundant.

One could argue that the mining laser should be able to mine void opals. But not as efficiently as the other tools. Similarly if we had an ADS scanner added back in, surely it should not be able to gather the same level of detailed data that the FSS does.

S

 

[Riverside]

Tbh I mostly just do missions for my squadrons systems. Lots of massacre missions and ax stuff. I much prefer that I don't have to fly through the whole system to scan it. Makes it a lot quicker when I have a really far destination through space that is new to me. Also it's kinda like using a radio telescope but not complicated to someone who isn't experienced in that type of thing. So in a way more immersive to me.

My use for the FSS & mapping has been similar to yours recently. BGS stuff for me so I am in known space, just gathering as much data as I can as quickly as I can so I can sell it tactically. The FSS is excellent for that because I'm not reliant on it for basic navigation, it's simply an extra tool (a telescope) I can use while carrying out a non-exploration primary activity.

The issue comes when out in virgin systems.

 

[Riverside]

Mining was made more varied by adding the new tools. It is a lot more interesting now, but maybe not that balanced. And looking for stuff to mine has not been made that much more interesting; we got the DSS probes to find hot spots, but we don't really need them. In fact, it is often just as good or better to mine outside them. Then there is the oddity of core mining giving access to a subset of mostly valuable minerals that cannot be found elsewhere, as if the rocks grew around those deposits rather than being fragments of larger bodies. We still cannot really mine on planets except for a few materials. The mining tools could be made a lot smarter and much more functional. They are just a bundle of game mechanics.

The FSS is not the same. Yes, it mimicks a radio telescope and adds a bit of variability to exploration game play. Combined with the DSS it now gives us the ability to find PoIs that we before had to use methods to find that essentially has existed since before map making was invented. Still a bit clunky and half-baked, a lot more could be done with it even in conjunction with the mining tools (because let's face it, when is exploration not about finding resources?). It doesn't solve the issue that not much is done with the data we gather or how we use or display it.

What the FSS doesn't do that the new mining tools did, is being an addition to existing game mechanics. We did not have an exploration tool before. We had a button to push, and some flying and waiting to do. So we can't really compare the FSS addition to the addition of mining tools. Since it was an addition to nothing.

At least with the FSS/DSS combo we have the basic exploration tools in place. Now we just need it built upon. We need it fleshed out better. Adding the old ADS functionality back in is not the answer, that adds nothing useful. That would be like giving the mining laser the ability to mine void opals; it would render the new tools redundant.

One could argue that the mining laser should be able to mine void opals. But not as efficiently as the other tools. Similarly if we had an ADS scanner added back in, surely it should not be able to gather the same level of detailed data that the FSS does.

S

The ADS is not essential equipment, but it is objectively wrong to state that it adds nothing. You may not have a use for what it did, and may not even like what it did but it was an optional module that performed a function I have an ongoing use for, and there was no need to remove the three old modules at all.

If they are added back you will not fit one, and I will so that I can continue to explore as I did before the 3.3 update, and continue to within known systems.

Adding them back in (or not having removed them in the first place) is the obvious solution to many of the issues described in this thread. It's quick, easy to implement & takes pressure away from fixing the new stuff which is clearly no simple task or it would have been done by now.

There is literally no good reason not to put them back in, there was no need to remove them in the first place.

 

[Sysmon]

The ADS is not essential equipment, but it is objectively wrong to state that it adds nothing. You may not have a use for what it did, and may not even like what it did but it was an optional module that performed a function I have an ongoing use for, and there was no need to remove the three old modules at all.

If they are added back you will not fit one, and I will so that I can continue to explore as I did before the 3.3 update, and continue to within known systems.

Addin them back in (or not having removed them in the first place) is the obvious solution to many of the issues described in this thread. It's quick, easy to implement & takes pressure away from fixing the new stuff which is clearly no simple task or it would have been done by now.

There is literally no good reason not to put them back in, there was no need to remove them in the first place.

The ADS was essential equipment once, unless you had all the time in the world to explore and therefore happy with one of the two cheaper versions. It has now been fully replaced with a more interesting tool that admittedly hinders some styles of game play, although game play styles that regrettably developed because FD was rather slow developing the FSS.

I used the ADS for exploration, for finding stuff to look at it in systems. And I thought it was dead dull and stopped short of doing anything but giving me an odd mix of too much and not enough information.

HOWEVER! There is a place for BDS/IDS/ADS like tools: Tools that simply populates the nav panel and system map with a set of bodies based on system composition: No other data should be present except size and overall type (gas giant or rocky/icy/metallic body, basic orbital configuration). The system map should have a set of blank blobs. Any more data should then be gatherable by flying to each body and scanning it further.

I wasn't against having the ADS, just that it gave too much detail for too little effort. And the effort to be spent after then honk to get more was too much of the wrong kind of effort.

S

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I think making the FSS so 'all encompassing' was a mistake and it's delivery was done wrongly etc, etc...
The fact that options were removed is at the least shortsighted and could and should be remedied, the old BDS IDS and ADS did nothing more than allow you to see a map that seemingly just scrolled open wider the more money you spent on the module that began as a honk and ended with the whirlygig, the map was for many the prize and the tool for many others, you can talk about whetevermetric data gathering all you want but the old and new systems didn't and don't do any of that, they simply present information is a delayed fashion.
And now I've just been ninja'd by Sysmon... but I'll continue a bit.

As Sysmon says above tools are critical to the immersion (murshun) of the game and the option of pinging for gravity waves from masses, and radio waves, visible light and other light waves, scans for particles emitted from masses or trails should be doable and visibly doable, but the reward and effort has to be addressed, whether that reward is a map of black blobs, a side note in the nav panel, or a highlight on the totally fuzzy ball on in the (all but forgotten about) orrery*
We need could really do with some Exploration 'add on' tools for Exploration... we have slots!

*And why does the spellchecker ED uses not know what an Orrery is?
Edited : mistakes bit.

 

[Riverside]

The ADS was essential equipment once, unless you had all the time in the world to explore and therefore happy with one of the two cheaper versions. It has now been fully replaced with a more interesting tool that admittedly hinders some styles of game play, although game play styles that regrettably developed because FD was rather slow developing the FSS.

I used the ADS for exploration, for finding stuff to look at it in systems. And I thought it was dead dull and stopped short of doing anything but giving me an odd mix of too much and not enough information.

HOWEVER! There is a place for BDS/IDS/ADS like tools: Tools that simply populates the nav panel and system map with a set of bodies based on system composition: No other data should be present except size and overall type (gas giant or rocky/icy/metallic body, basic orbital configuration). The system map should have a set of blank blobs. Any more data should then be gatherable by flying to each body and scanning it further.

I wasn't against having the ADS, just that it gave too much detail for too little effort. And the effort to be spent after then honk to get more was too much of the wrong kind of effort.

S

There is no need to gimp the old tools if they are reinstated. There is a desire to from those that wouldn't use them, there is no need.

It does not matter how others choose to discover a system.

 

[Darkfyre99]

What you are referring to as interesting stuff is not … that is the niff-naff and trivial information.

The interesting stuff is the nature of the bodies which the pre-3.3 ADS honk did not reveal and neither does the auto-reveal of non-virgin systems.

You do realize that different people find different things interesting, don't you? And just like you prefer to have an active hand in discovering information you find interesting, I want an active hand in discovering the information I find interesting.

The long and the short of it is FD have an obligation to retain the pre-3.3 exploration experience in some shape or form and to not do so would be essentially breeching the consumer rights of those that have invested in the exploration since release. FD may own the IP of their product but they are bound by consumer trading laws and essentially were ill-advised to change things as they have done.

I look forward to following your lawsuit then. You have filed a lawsuit over this egregious violation of your rights, haven't you?

 

[Darkfyre99]

The BDS, with it's 500 light second range, should be incorporated into the FSS's functionality. It's only fair for objects at that range to be populated, if not detail scanned.

Not just no, but hell no.

I have no problem adding back in some of the _DS functionality as optional modules, but I don't want any part of those things added back into the FSS. It's bad enough that systems that others have explored get spoiled for me in this manner. The last thing I need is having 90% of unexplored systems getting spoiled in this manner. I explore for the joy of discovery, and its hard to discover anything for yourself if automated systems are doing it for you instantly at the press of a button.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There is no need to gimp the old tools if they are reinstated. There is a desire to from those that wouldn't use them, there is no need.

It does not matter how others choose to discover a system.

I would like tools that work with the FSS. For me the ADS as it was does not. So while I am okay for tools to be added and even something like the old ADS, I would much much prefer them to work with it

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Opinions vary on whose opinions are dumb & whose are super likeable. The simple solution is to do as they did with mining & just leave the old stuff in & not get worked up about how other people play.

Some are just dumb and that's nothing to do with opinions. Things like the consumer act, Fdev are punishing me and so forth, people that don't want the ADS back are victimising people, silly descriptions which can also be applied to other mechanics in the game, but those mechanics are fine. Utterly hilarious. There have been many such comments.

As to the simplest solution that is to just except Fdev don't want it in and will not add it in and adapt/change your playstyle to what has been added. That is the simplest solution.

 

[Riverside]

I would like tools that work with the FSS. For me the ADS as it was does not. So while I am okay for tools to be added and even something like the old ADS, I would much much prefer them to work with it

There are lots of extra little nuggets that could be added, to allow players to pick & choose, or to optimise a ship in a particular way depending on playstyle. They haven't been though, and there would need to be a design & feasibility process for any new module. The ADS is a known quantity, it can be quickly & easily added back into the game. When a player explores in the bubble (as I am doing at the moment as a secondary 'income source' for my factions) they are already able to use the functionality I am looking to have reinstated.

 

[HAMM3R]

Suppose they could tie Codex/Universal Cartography more into things. Like, when you enter a system someone's explored already, you'd get a short "Codex entry found" message. Then, say, selecting the main star from the Nav Panel there'd be a button to "Update system info" that would populate the Sys Map (and Nav Panel) with unexplored bodies. That way you could choose if you want to find and explore everything yourself or use data someone else has already gathered.

Or something like that. Just a thought that popped into mind while skimming through the thread.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

There are lots of extra little nuggets that could be added, to allow players to pick & choose, or to optimise a ship in a particular way depending on playstyle. They haven't been though, and there would need to be a design & feasibility process for any new module. The ADS is a known quantity, it can be quickly & easily added back into the game. When a player explores in the bubble (as I am doing at the moment as a secondary 'income source' for my factions) they are already able to use the functionality I am looking to have reinstated.

Personally I would have that functionality removed as it has made the Nav beacons virtually useless. I would also have preferred the FSS as an optional module.

I don't know how easy it will be to add a completely separate mechanic in the game.

 

[Darkfyre99]

The only comments about the fuss I find hard to fathom are when people exclaim it changes the game, enables discovery, liberation from something completely not possible in the past, but then go out of their way to avoid using it.

If I could get by without touching the fuss, I'm sure id be full of praise for it too.

EDIT: But that is just pointing out logic. Of course complete respect for working out a way to enjoy something of that caliber. Lesser folk are still challenged by it.

I suspect that this is directed at me.

Much like Supercruise, my enjoyment of the FSS isn't because I "go out of my way to avoid using it." My enjoyment is that the FSS was designed in such a way that my use of it gets me to where I want to go faster than the simply understood "minigame" that some people insist is the "correct" way to use it. There is a wealth of information provided by the FSS that most players ignore in favor of the "minigame." I don't ignore them, and much like how taking advantage of the mass lock effect vs the "forum recommended technique" can save you time in Supercruise, reading the signs in the FSS saves me time over the "minigame."

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Personally I would have that functionality removed as it has made the Nav beacons virtually useless. I would also have preferred the FSS as an optional module.

I don't know how easy it will be to add a completely separate mechanic in the game.

My mate used to explore and travel via the nav panel almost exclusively, I never used it really, he also used the Beacons... But, nope, I never used them myself, funny how options make for different gameplay.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

My mate used to explore and travel via the nav panel almost exclusively, I never used it really, he also used the Beacons... But, nope, I never used them myself, funny how options make for different gameplay.

I'm not against different options.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I'm not against different options.

Didn't think or indicate you were, you mentioned two features and I remembered how me and my mate differed.

 

[Sunyavadin]

My mate used to explore and travel via the nav panel almost exclusively, I never used it really, he also used the Beacons... But, nope, I never used them myself, funny how options make for different gameplay.

It's really so frustrating not being able to use it for that when at the same time the honk autopopulates it with lagrange clouds and it's the only way to locate those because they don't show up in the FSS.
Like, there's no coherent design philosophy at play here. No unified consistency.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

I suspect that this is directed at me.

Much like Supercruise, my enjoyment of the FSS isn't because I "go out of my way to avoid using it." My enjoyment is that the FSS was designed in such a way that my use of it gets me to where I want to go faster than the simply understood "minigame" that some people insist is the "correct" way to use it. There is a wealth of information provided by the FSS that most players ignore in favor of the "minigame." I don't ignore them, and much like how taking advantage of the mass lock effect vs the "forum recommended technique" can save you time in Supercruise, reading the signs in the FSS saves me time over the "minigame."

No.... was directed at Max. The only times we've replied its been about the game and there's been some great insight shared. On topic is that but going 'ner ner' is something else. My post was as pointless as the one I replied to.

Brasso is something that may aid the hardware used while jousting just in case.

Hey wait.. that would mean I was jousting. Damn it

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

No.... was directed at Max. The only times we've replied its been about the game and there's been some great insight shared. On topic is that but going 'ner ner' is something else. My post was as pointless as the one I replied to.

Brasso is something that may aid the hardware used while jousting just in case.

Hey wait.. that would mean I was jousting. Damn it

Why would it be directed at me? Not sure how it applies.