Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

View attachment 134270

Fair point. It's moved elsewhere, shall we say?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

So we can say, yes LOL Unfortunately, we hardly can say this thread has created any new insights.

Well we learned that nobody's opinion has changed since the last thread - and that you're still addicted to posting in them

 

[Ian Skippy]

If I remember correctly, I mostly supported your suggestion. It's a shame FDev hasn't (visibly) taken on board your, or anyone else's suggestions - even Ziljian's, back in the beta discussion.

However, I recall a similarly entrenched discussion about autopilot, which lasted years, and now we have the SCA and ADC, so it seems there's some value in constantly repeating oneself in the Suggestions Forum

Autopilot suggesions didn't have the quite literally 10000+ pages. If anything, it suggests FD values argumentation over repetition. In the end we are a miniscule part of the community, both of us. Endless handbag-waving doesn't sway FD either way, no matter who 'wins'. I wouldn't be surprised if some changes are made at some point, but your odds of 'achieving' that would be increased a lot if you and some others would stop pushing weak arguments and fallacies, and instead focus on the core argument; preferably specified as explicitly as possible.

You might be surprised how many people might support you then, including possible folks over at FD...

 

[Riverside]

Sure. And because it's so easy to implement is why we already got it. Oh wait...
Have you ever considered FD isn't probably sharing your opinion?

Now where you say it, it's actually a shameless attempt of the umpteenth repetition of the same old threads and as such has absolutely no business in the suggestions forum. Where is the moderator when we need one?

We don't know what FDev's opinion is (on the technical feasibility or otherwise), they haven't shared it. I would hope they know my opinion of it though, and I would like a response. I think this would be of benefit to us all. I am shouting this loudly and clearly from the rooftops, to coin a phrase: the old discovery modules didn't need to be removed.

 

[lenna]

1. The ADS's Reveal All makes the FSS's One-at-a-Time method of discovery rather pointless.

False - some things would only be detectable at range with the FSS even in a revived ADS

2. The ADS did not provide the level of detail, per planet, the FSS does. Adding this to an already over-powered Gods-Eye-View scanner defeats the purpose.

No one is suggesting that - only the level of information that used to be reported and is currently reported by the FSS honk in pre-explored systems. To get the L3 scans CMDRs would still need to either fly by scan or use the FSS.

3. The ADS did not reveal signal sources. Adding this to an already over-powered Gods-Eye-View scanner defeats the purpose.

No-one is asking for that capability to be included with the revived ADS.

4. The ADS was not integrated into ship systems.

Besides the point, and irrelevant.

5. None of anyone posting here has any knowledge or experience programming for or with the Cobra Engine, thus no one is qualified to speak on behalf of it's capabilities. However it is entirely in the realm of realistic to suspect that these sorts of scanning mechanisms are programatically incompatible, that is to say, they simply cannot co-exist. Someone familiar with the programming for Cobra would have to confirm or deny this.

Irrelevant in the main - but what is being asked for is not really new, and given the FSS behaviour in pre-explored systems it is obvious it would still be feasible.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Tough.

Yeah, tough luck I showed your strawman.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Autopilot suggesions didn't have the quite literally 10000+ pages. If anything, it suggests FD values argumentation over repetition. In the end we are a miniscule part of the community, both of us. Endless handbag-waving doesn't sway FD either way, no matter who 'wins'. I wouldn't be surprised if some changes are made at some point, but your odds of 'achieving' that would be increased a lot if you and some others would stop pushing weak arguments and fallacies, and instead focus on the core argument; preferably specified as explicitly as possible.

You might be surprised how many people might support you then, including possible folks over at FD...

Well the core argument is that the FSS is suboptimal for a number of exploration styles. FDev know this, since they explicitly admitted it in the initial announcement. Reinstating the ADS (or something like it, with or without limitations) would resolve that problem.

That's accurate, right? No weak arguments or fallacies there?

Everything else beyond that is just opinion, personal preference and bickering.

Now all it needs is for FDev to say "We have/are considering it, and the answer is yes/no/maybe"

Then we can all go back to arguing about spacelegs.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Well the core argument is that the FSS is suboptimal for a number of exploration styles. FDev know this, since they explicitly admitted it in the initial announcement. Reinstating the ADS (or something like it, with or without limitations) would resolve that problem.

That's accurate, right? No weak arguments or fallacies there?

Everything else beyond that is just opinion, personal preference and bickering.

Now all it needs is for FDev to say "We have/are considering it, and the answer is yes/no/maybe"

Then we can all go back to arguing about spacelegs.

Well, no. That is the problem. This is the real discussion:

FD:"Here is our new explo vision!"
You:"I don't like it, I prefer the previous version."
FD:"We've heard you, but after giving it some thought we've decided giving you what you want doesn't match our vision, sorry."
You:"Well, yeah, but I still want it."

So far so good: You said what you want, FD said they don't want to do that, you repeated you understand but still want it. All good. But when you say:"FD should just do what I want, that should resolve the problem." you ignore what they told you. They know you want that, they told you they don't want to do that, you need more to convince them. You need to make a list of reasons why they don't want you to have what you want, and reply to that honestly.

And that is where things go south so far. Either you don't adequately address the reasons, or the arguments to counter them are poorly thought-out. And your latest "just give me my ADS and all is cool, no?" is a perfect example: it explicitly ignores them very much telling you directly that is absolutely not cool. And you really need to do better than just ignore that.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Well, no. That is the problem. This is the real discussion:

FD:"Here is our new explo vision!"
You:"I don't like it, I prefer the previous version."
FD:"We've heard you, but after giving it some thought we've decided giving you what you want doesn't match our vision, sorry."
You:"Well, yeah, but I still want it."

So far so good: You said what you want, FD said they don't want to do that, you repeated you understand but still want it. All good. But when you say:"FD should just do what I want, that should resolve the problem." you ignore what they told you. They know you want that, they told you they don't want to do that, you need more to convince them. You need to make a list of reasons why they don't want you to have what you want, and reply to that honestly.

And that is where things go south so far. Either you don't adequately address the reasons, or the arguments to counter them are poorly thought-out. And your latest "just give me my ADS and all is cool, no?" is a perfect example: it explicitly ignores them very much telling you directly that is absolutely not cool. And you really need to do better than just ignore that.

I'd like them to give it more than a couple of days thought, prior to the actual release. Does that seem unreasonable?

You know, use their metrics to determine whether people are using the FSS to explore - now that DW2 is over they should have some reasonable data.

Oh, and the other thing is, they might just change their mind. Stranger things have happened.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Well, no. That is the problem. This is the real discussion:

FD:"Here is our new explo vision!"
You:"I don't like it, I prefer the previous version."
FD:"We've heard you, but after giving it some thought we've decided giving you what you want doesn't match our vision, sorry."
You:"Well, yeah, but I still want it."

So far so good: You said what you want, FD said they don't want to do that, you repeated you understand but still want it. All good. But when you say:"FD should just do what I want, that should resolve the problem." you ignore what they told you. They know you want that, they told you they don't want to do that, you need more to convince them. You need to make a list of reasons why they don't want you to have what you want, and reply to that honestly.

And that is where things go south so far. Either you don't adequately address the reasons, or the arguments to counter them are poorly thought-out. And your latest "just give me my ADS and all is cool, no?" is a perfect example: it explicitly ignores them very much telling you directly that is absolutely not cool. And you really need to do better than just ignore that.

Curiously, the ADS+DSS was the "vision" of FD for 4 years, regardless, I'm surprised the FSS was what they thought of in all that time.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Curiously, the ADS+DSS was the "vision" of FD for 4 years.

Perfect spheres with 2D textures was their 'vision' for planets too. Its a non-argument that intentionally ignores the concept of incremental development.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Curiously, the ADS+DSS was the "vision" of FD for 4 years, regardless, I'm surprised the FSS was what they thought of in all that time.

They thought of the FSS in two months maximum - which is why we never got the Focused Feedback Forum they promised. If I'm being charitable I'd say they had better ideas but couldn't make them work in time, so had to go with plan B.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Perfect spheres with 2D textures was their 'vision' for planets too. Its a non-argument that intentionally ignores the concept of incremental development.

That's a double-edged sword Ian and you have cut yourself with it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

They thought of the FSS in two months maximum - which is why we never got the Focused Feedback Forum they promised. If I'm being charitable I'd say they had better ideas but couldn't make them work in time, so had to go with plan B.

Nobody is arguing the FSS is the ultimate in exploration game design. Most would argue it beats 'hold a button for five seconds and that is all' though. Arguing for further improvements is one thing, pretending the former beats the latter puts you in a very small minority, for obvious reasons.

 

[Ian Skippy]

That's a double-edged sword Ian and you have cut yourself with it.

Not really, see my post above. To put it prosaically: when in a traffic jam, horses ain't the answer.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Nobody is arguing the FSS is the ultimate in exploration game design. Most would argue it beats 'hold a button for five seconds and that is all' though. Arguing for further improvements is one thing, pretending the former beats the latter puts you in a very small minority, for obvious reasons.

Indeed, but it took 4 years for FDev to get around to updating exploration, so I'm not sure I'm sufficiently patient to wait on the next iteration.

In the meantime I suggest that FDev consider improving the FSS by adding functionality to populate the System Map with all bodies on the initial honk. This improvement could take the form of a size 1 module that fits into an optional slot. There's precedent for this kind of enhancement, in the form of the FSD Booster module, which increases the capability of a non-optional module.

Everyone loves the FSD Booster, so I think my suggestion would be popular.

 

[Speedcuffs]

Here's a challenge. Find someone inside frontier, familiar with the fss, that goes home and plays elite in anticipation of using the fss to go exploring or find signal sources. Get them to come on stream, and use it over an extended period, sharing insights about what they're enjoying about the experience, and critically what they're thinking thoughout its use. Ever since its launch, i can't do it, and i've tried seriously... i'm very fond of elite, and all i've ever wanted to do was make it work.

I just watched Paiges live stream, and for the first time in history saw someone at frontier use the fss is a non dismissive way. How she used it was closer to how i try to use it, as when trying the way Will demonstrates I almost quit the game. But im genuinely lost on how that experience can be used enjoyably for longer exploration trips.

Just in case, avoiding another type of gameplay does not count as enjoyment to me. That's fools gold there.

Please help, and thankyou. A demonstration of 2-3 systems in sequence is all i need help with.

No.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Not really, see my post above. To put it prosaically: when in a traffic jam, horses ain't the answer.

Has FD stated that the FSS is the definitive method to explore for the rest of the lifetime in ED?

If the answer is yes then you are right, if the answer is no then I'm right.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Has FD stated that the FSS is the definitive method to explore for the rest of the lifetime in ED?

If the answer is yes then you are right, if the answer is no then I'm right.

Err, no, and I don't claim it is. If you think I did you missed a turn somewhere. All I am saying is that FD said that what we have now is an improvement over what we had before, that they know some don't agree but that they accept that and want to move forward. Beyond that is anyone's guess. Anyway, I just got back home and have some stuff to sell. Have a great extended weekend all!

 

[Speedcuffs]

Err, no, and I don't claim it is. If you think I did you missed a turn somewhere. All I am saying is that FD said that what we have now is an improvement over what we had before, that they know some don't agree but that they accept that and want to move forward. Beyond that is anyone's guess. Anyway, I just got back home and have some stuff to sell. Have a great extended weekend all!

Extended weekend?