Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[Darkfyre99]

I'm not going to go as far as to call it an abomination, as he did the ADS. Calling names isn't helpful, and claiming something is objectively fun / not fun for everyone is pointless.

First, I’d like to point out that what I write about the old system is about how I feel about it, not about how others should feel about it. I think it’s safe to assume I may not have always remembered to make this clear, but my feelings about the old system are precisely that: mine. I’ve been looking forward to exploring the galaxy since the Kickstarter, and the old system was so uninspiring to me that I barely did any, despite many attempts to create inspiration given the “tools” provided.

That being said, I have no issue with adding new tools to the explorer’s tool kit, including one that would replicate the old ADS. In particular, I’d prefer an actual surface scanner, one that would allow me to map a planet by flying over it, rather than than the current probe system. As much as I like launching probes, having a variety of tools that perform the same functions differently, which have distinct advantages and drawbacks, would make exploration, including the outfitting stage, much more interesting.

I also very much miss the distinct lack of logistics and living off the land in exploration. Granted, we can’t land on Earthlike worlds to replenish our food supplies, but IMO outfitting for an extended stay away from the Bubble should involve decisions about how much weight we should devote to consumables, spare parts, expendable equipment, tools, and other considerations. When synthesis was introduced, I had had hopes that that would at least partially fill this particular gap, but that really hasn’t been the case.

The fact is though that Frontier removed something that people found fun (even though it was obviously a placeholder mechanic) and replaced it with something that they don't find fun, with no alternative. That was a first, I believe.

If this is the first time you’ve encountered something like this, you’ve been fortunate. There’s been quite a few mechanisms I’ve enjoyed over the years in this game that have been removed, nerfed, dummied out, obviated, or otherwise rendered irrelevant.

I will grant you that the ADS has the record for the longest span between introduction and removal.

 

[Rat Catcher]

It's a game, one with a '10 year plan', it is evolving as the developers wish, no oversights in 'leaving' things out when a major change was introduced, just changes the designers wanted. They even admitted that a tiny minority would dislike the changes...

So, every few weeks the forum has the same 'debate' arise once more, with the game developers being likened to 'absent-minded relatives' who forgot something, or terrible monsters who stole something from every player and demands are made to put it back.

I'm sure the common names are memorised and noted in each of these tirades, and probably expected to return with monotonous regularity to spill the same thinly-veiled invective once more.

The game has moved on, the vocal minority have yet to do so.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

It's a game, one with a '10 year plan', it is evolving as the developers wish, no oversights in 'leaving' things out when a major change was introduced, just changes the designers wanted. They even admitted that a tiny minority would dislike the changes...

So, every few weeks the forum has the same 'debate' arise once more, with the game developers being likened to 'absent-minded relatives' who forgot something, or terrible monsters who stole something from every player and demands are made to put it back.

I'm sure the common names are memorised and noted in each of these tirades, and probably expected to return with monotonous regularity to spill the same thinly-veiled invective once more.

The game has moved on, the vocal minority have yet to do so.

If there's one thing that's more pointless that having the same discussion over and over again and hoping that FDev change their mind, it's telling people that it's pointless having the same discussion over and over again and hoping that FDev change their mind.

And yes, I'm aware that this post was even more pointless, but if you tell me that then you're becoming still more pointless - and I WILL tell you that in yet another exponentially more pointless post. So let's just not, eh?

 

[Darkfyre99]

So by that logic there's no need for ADS to be kept, you look across the FSS spectrum and it tells you, with certainty, what's in the system. Let's be honest, people arguing for ADS say the reason for it is it's a quick way to find particular planets they're looking for. FSS does exactly that, isolating those particular planets by frequency.

The people who are the most affected by the loss of the ADS aren’t looking for Earthlike worlds, or for that matter anything that will show up on the FSS. They’re looking for the proverbial “rare unicorns” that have been created by the Stellar Forge. Worlds that are outliers from what is considered “normal.”

An Icy body the size of Amalthea would look identical to an icy body the size of Neptune on the FSS, but the latter stands out like sore thumb on the system map. As I understand it, outliers like that make Earthlikes seem downright common in comparison, but can only be found by traveling through systems as fast as possible, churning through system map after system map, looking for icons on the system map that don’t look right.

 

[Winterwalker]

The people who are the most affected by the loss of the ADS aren’t looking for Earthlike worlds, or for that matter anything that will show up on the FSS. They’re looking for the proverbial “rare unicorns” that have been created by the Stellar Forge. Worlds that are outliers from what is considered “normal.”

An Icy body the size of Amalthea would look identical to an icy body the size of Neptune on the FSS, but the latter stands out like sore thumb on the system map. As I understand it, outliers like that make Earthlikes seem downright common in comparison, but can only be found by traveling through systems as fast as possible, churning through system map after system map, looking for icons on the system map that don’t look right.

So those people use can FSS .. and then look on the System Map, no problem.

Rare unicorns became more valuable, more difficult to find but no actual barrier to finding, with the FSS emulating the sort of astonomical measurements you would have to had to have made, to determine if a regular icy body really is the size of Neptune.

 

[Rat Catcher]

If there's one thing that's more pointless that having the same discussion over and over again and hoping that FDev change their mind, it's telling people that it's pointless having the same discussion over and over again and hoping that FDev change their mind.

And yes, I'm aware that this post was even more pointless, but if you tell me that then you're becoming still more pointless - and I WILL tell you that in yet another exponentially more pointless post. So let's just not, eh?

I'm sure you will Drew guess what?
But, you must admit, it is plenty of fun for all of us here in the forum to exchange such pleasantries

 

[MadDogMurdock]

So those people use can FSS .. and then look on the System Map, no problem.

Rare unicorns became more valuable, more difficult to find but no actual barrier to finding, with the FSS emulating the sort of astonomical measurements you would have to had to have made, to determine if a regular icy body really is the size of Neptune.

Hmm, let's see how that works.
I should fully FSS scan every system on the 1 in a million chance that it contains something truly unusual.
That's time spent doing something I don't really enjoy for a miniscule chance of success.

That's a hard sell - I'll pass.

 

[Winterwalker]

Hmm, let's see how that works.
I should fully FSS scan every system on the 1 in a million chance that it contains something truly unusual.
That's time spent doing something I don't really enjoy for a miniscule chance of success.

That's a hard sell - I'll pass.

I assume you DO enjoy jump-honk-scoop as a routine then. ☺

It just makes sense, if you're looking for anomalies, that you'd take measurements to find them. You haven't had to have to up to now but that's really because ED "the game" is a developing system and things change.

So now you might (1) look for other anomalies you didn't think were notable before (2) look for system traits that allow you to predict anomalous planets (K class stars - for eg. - increase the chance of any ring being a metallic) or (3) shift focus into anomalous compositions and geolocial or biological finds, alongside the astronomical ones. Fewer systems visited but each one more fully studied, who knows what else.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I assume you DO enjoy jump-honk-scoop as a routine then. ☺

It just makes sense, if you're looking for anomalies, that you'd take measurements to find them. You haven't had to have to up to now but that's really because ED "the game" is a developing system and things change.

So now you might (1) look for other anomalies you didn't think were notable before (2) look for system traits that allow you to predict anomalous planets (K class stars - for eg. - increase the chance of any ring being a metallic) or (3) shift focus into anomalous compositions and geolocial or biological finds, alongside the astronomical ones. Fewer systems visited but each one more fully studied, who knows what else.

I mean yeah, we've only spent thousands of hours over 4 years looking for particular things in a particular way, so it's no big deal just to completely change what we're doing and how we do it. It's not like we were enjoying ourselves or anything.

 

[Winterwalker]

I mean yeah, we've only spent thousands of hours over 4 years looking for particular things in a particular way, so it's no big deal just to completely change what we're doing and how we do it. It's not like we were enjoying ourselves or anything.

I'm suggesting you work around it and develop the way you play the game, in tandem with the game, as that develops. I would have thought it pretty staisfying if there's a predictability to the distribution of anomalous planets, at least as interesting as 'visit as many systems as possible' for a quick glance. That's sledgehammer exploration, surely?

The truth of it is that only one - of many - sections of the playerbase will be looking for a specific type of anomaly but changes you make for one style of play (eg. reintroducing ADS) would have repercussions across the board. Probably best to keep an open mind as the success of the game overall keeps the servers running so everyone - all playstyles - can continue to play

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I mean yeah, we've only spent thousands of hours over 4 years looking for particular things in a particular way, so it's no big deal just to completely change what we're doing and how we do it. It's not like we were enjoying ourselves or anything.

Pretty much what everyone else has had to do. We have all had to adapt and change. Some are just more resistant to that change.

 

[Riverside]

I'm suggesting you work around it and develop the way you play the game, in tandem with the game, as that develops. I would have thought it pretty staisfying if there's a predictability to the distribution of anomalous planets, at least as interesting as 'visit as many systems as possible' for a quick glance. That's sledgehammer exploration, surely?

The truth of it is that only one - of many - sections of the playerbase will be looking for a specific type of anomaly but changes you make for one style of play (eg. reintroducing ADS) would have repercussions across the board. Probably best to keep an open mind as the success of the game overall keeps the servers running so everyone - all playstyles - can continue to play

What would the repercussions be of re-introducing the old discovery modules? Some players would return to port to change their loadout. Anything else?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

What would the repercussions be of re-introducing the old discovery modules? Some players would return to port to change their loadout. Anything else?

It's not 'proper exploration' - WWs made it quite clear that only approved exploration techniques should be supported.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Pretty much what everyone else has had to do. We have all had to adapt and change. Some are just more resistant to that change.

Not sure how that precludes making suggestions in the Suggestion Forum.

 

[Winterwalker]

It's not 'proper exploration' - WWs made it quite clear that only approved exploration techniques should be supported.

If you read back I've said that I don't mind the ADS coming back in some form but I'd be wary how that was done. I'd rather see the FSS improved first, then see about ADS. For me it was a good idea to withdraw it at least temporarily. The game though has a rich history of exploits by players being tweaked down by the Devs, and as far as I can tell this is the first and only time the exploration community has had such a thing happen. In return there are more things out there to find now, beyond barren rocks of unusual sizes.

 

[Darkfyre99]

So those people use can FSS .. and then look on the System Map, no problem.

Rare unicorns became more valuable, more difficult to find but no actual barrier to finding, with the FSS emulating the sort of astonomical measurements you would have to had to have made, to determine if a regular icy body really is the size of Neptune.

At some point, though, things like that reach the point of pre-3.3 surface features or, for that matter, trying to explore via parallax before 3.3. You could invest dozens of hours scouring the surface of a planet and never find the darn things, and you could circle a star for an hour, and never know that there’s no other bodies in the system.

There’s rare, there’s needle in a haystack rare, and then there’s a non-magnetic needle in a haystack sitting in a recently harvested 1000 acre hayfield that’s somewhere in the state of Wyoming rare.

That’s why I don’t mind if they add back in an optional version of the ADS. It has no real advantage at finding most things, and the one area it’s good at is a field so esoteric most players wonder why anyone would even bother with it.

 

[Riverside]

So, I would like so;e clarification on this process here, pls. Currently, I've only found biological/geological locations by mapping a planet. Is it really possible to uncover such locations without the need to fly close to a planet and map it? If so, how exactly? Cheers.

When you resolve a body in the FSS Scanner Screen it will tell you (top right) whether there are any geo/bio etc persistent POIs on the body & a count. You may have to wait a while for it to be displayed.

For geo activity the sysmap will tell you what's there before mapping, it doesn't for bio activity (before mapping) though.

 

[marx]

Rare unicorns became more valuable, more difficult to find but no actual barrier to finding

Ah yes, this argument again. Take a look at it this way. Something rare that would have required 100 hours of a repetitive, simple but not attention-demanding activity now requires at least 500-600 hours of a repetitive, simple but attention-demanding activity. That's a hard sell.

Or take a look at it another way. Between the participants of DW2, there is a total playtime likely measured in millions of hours. How many rare, outstanding discoveries can you name that the expedition has found? The problem being, of course, that with all that time spent, most likely only a tiny fraction of it was spent on fully scanning systems. After all, as we could see before, that's a niche activity that's rarely done.

[The ADS] has no real advantage at finding most things, and the one area it’s good at is a field so esoteric most players wonder why anyone would even bother with it.

It's not that difficult to realize though. There is the wonder of discovering something unexpected, even by the developers. There is also the accomplishment, and the feeling that others will visit what you found. No offense to anyone, but ELW #351,709 (if only half of the finds are registered on EDSM, that's roughly how far we are now) in itself isn't something anyone will care about. Even ringed ELW #4,812 would be the same. But when something has only a dozen finds known, or perhaps even just the one (like an ELW orbiting a sole T dwarf, covered in near-darkness), then others will want to go see it too.

I would have thought it pretty staisfying if there's a predictability to the distribution of anomalous planets, at least as interesting as 'visit as many systems as possible' for a quick glance. That's sledgehammer exploration, surely?

Well, yes, but there aren't exactly a lot of us researching how the Stellar Forge might work. The thing is, even with the best methods we produced of narrowing down searches to maximise your chances of your targets, we are still talking about having to visit tens of thousands of systems. Except now, we are talking about having to fully scan tens of thousands of systems... unless you're looking for stuff that shows up on the FSS bar, of course. (For example, since it's now much easier to recognize ammonia worlds, they are being submitted at a much higher rate than before Chapter Four.)
In the end, finding things in Elite always boils down to visiting as many systems as possible. The only way the FSS gave us more reason to stay longer in a system isn't because there is more to discover, but because the developers added artificial time sinks to make us stay there longer.

The truth of it is that only one - of many - sections of the playerbase will be looking for a specific type of anomaly but changes you make for one style of play (eg. reintroducing ADS) would have repercussions across the board. Probably best to keep an open mind as the success of the game overall keeps the servers running so everyone - all playstyles - can continue to play

The sad truth though is that the new player retention rate of exploration is very low. This goes beyond the FSS / ADS / whatever debate, and exploration would need more than just yet another scanning mechanic to raise it. In the end, there's also that it's a niche activity in a niche game, and one that requires a lot of commitment on the player's part - can't just return in five minutes (without losing all your data, that is) to do some combat, trade or anything else.
Multicrew exploration could actually help there, if Frontier would finally fix it.

Oh, speaking of which, if anyone here wants to improve the FSS, I'd appreciate it if you would visit this issue and confirm it, so that the bug would be marked as confirmed and appear on FD's radar. Even if you personally don't care about multicrew, it would help plenty of people if it could be done meaningfully. There are still people trying to explore in multicrew even today.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Not sure how that precludes making suggestions in the Suggestion Forum.

Never did it does.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

What would the repercussions be of re-introducing the old discovery modules? Some players would return to port to change their loadout. Anything else?

Technically, probably no many. It will be the ramifications of Fdev adding station to station teleportation for those that don't want to do the travel part in between. It won't effect me or you or anyone else. All it does ls give player agency.