Could Frontier please demonstrate how to use the FSS enjoyably?

[Darkfyre99]

No, I think you misunderstood. What rlsg means is actually something that should be improved: the state of the current cursor when leaving the FSS should be stored as long as you don't leave the system. I often leave the FSS to look for some infos, then come back and the focus is restored. No biggy but a focus memory should be added as QOL feature. The current behavior is mildly annoying but has nothing to do with controller settings.

I very much understand that. However, there is a control option that allows for an absolute setting for the FSS, so wherever the physical control is set to, that's where the FSS is tuned to each time you use the FSS. So if I use the physical slider (which controls an axis) on my HOTAS to tune into the gas giant range, it'll still be tuned into the gas giant range when I go back into the FSS after leaving it. While there, I can use the digital controls to make fine adjustments, but it'll still be in the gas giant range, not (for example) at the far left of the spectrum, when I return.

I simply hadn't realized that tuning was reset if all you use are the digital controls, that's all.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Totally off-topic, but if fantasy floats your boat and you're on PC you might want to look at Conan Exiles. The survival rules are configurable (in solo mode), the crafting is logical and it's the only game where I've actively enjoyed base building (unlike Subnautica where I got bored quickly).

Very much tempted to pick it up. About the only thing that's keeping me from doing that is the completely optional nudity. Which is silly, I know, but feelings can be very irrational that way.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Sorry! I promise not to change how the game works!

While I know you don't have the power to change how the game works, I've already had one exploration mechanic I really liked cruelly yanked away without being replaced with anything remotely similar, and as we all well know, lightning has struck a second time with the ADS. When you add in some of the other things Frontier has removed in some fashion over the years, I sometimes think they don't know the meaning of the word "moderation."

 

[marx]

That's your opinion.

I hardly ever see maps that people have made. (Which is a shame, because we did have some pretty cool examples.) Could be I'm just looking at the wrong places though.

Only Frontier knows how successful the FSS was at getting more people to explore the Galaxy.

As I've written with facts before, the EDSM statistics are representative of exploration. You can take a look at them yourself: these days, 37-44k new systems are uploaded there on average, with 60-70k peaks on weekends. This was roughly the standard for pre-FSS times (not counting the days from when the FSS was revealed to when it was released, during which numbers dropped sharply), although it is curious that the peaks then were lower. Might be due to people who don't play often logging in on the weekends to return from DW2.

So, it didn't have an overall lasting impact on total activity. As you can check on the top 100 explorers though, it also led many of them not exploring or exploring much less, especially once DW2 reached Beagle Point.

The trend is clear too: exploration activity is decreasing. Of course, this tends to be the same always, with the only sharp increases historically having been either major updates, some rare pieces of news (CGs or mysteries) that made people want to go out to explore, or the DW2 expedition. (No data for DW1, unfortunately.) Major updates aren't going to happen until the end of next year, new mysteries or exploration CGs are highly unlikely, and another expedition of such scale, even more so.
So, I'd say the question isn't how exploration activity is going to change (increase or decrease) before the new era, but at what level it's going to bottom out instead. But hey, if I'll later turn out to be wrong on this, feel free to quote this and rub it in my face

Even with this though, bear in mind that most of the exploration activity is people flying between points of interest (and exploring along the way), and fewer people surveying the deep galaxy for new stuff.

The question is, do I consider the game "paused" when I'm not playing it, is my Commander sitting around doing nothing except consuming expendables when I'm not playing it, or do I try to create some kind of "time compression" rule where hours become days?

The latter, I'd say. After all, it's not like your ship consumes fuel while you are logged out. Having it be based on real time just punishes you for not playing, so to speak.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Very much tempted to pick it up. About the only thing that's keeping me from doing that is the completely optional nudity. Which is silly, I know, but feelings can be very irrational that way.

Grab it next times it's on sale, but play with your eyes averted at all times

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I sometimes think they don't know the meaning of the word "moderation."

Careful now, you don't want to get me started on the great missile nerf of 2015!!!

 

[Shinji Ikari]

If the FSS were 100% to my liking, you lot would most likely grumble even more as I'd prefer some brainwork required for using this tool. Pretty much the other direction: ADS -> FSS -> my version, this direction. As it stands, the current version is an acceptable compromise between 2 extremely differing conceptions. Think about it. It could have turned out so much worse for you.

Ermmm, FD never made any statements regarding a "compromise", heck, they even admitted to throw a bus under a particular exploration style.

 

[Darkfyre99]

As I've written with facts before, the EDSM statistics are representative of exploration. You can take a look at them yourself: these days, 37-44k new systems are uploaded there on average, with 60-70k peaks on weekends. This was roughly the standard for pre-FSS times (not counting the days from when the FSS was revealed to when it was released, during which numbers dropped sharply), although it is curious that the peaks then were lower. Might be due to people who don't play often logging in on the weekends to return from DW2.

That's one interpretation of that data. The thing is that under the ADS system, you could see if a system to see if it's "worth exploring" once every 45 seconds to one minute. One of the chief complaints about the FSS is that completing this step this takes considerably longer. If new systems are being added at the same rate, and each system visited takes considerably longer to see if its "worth exploring," wouldn't that indicate that more people are actually exploring?

So, it didn't have an overall lasting impact on total activity. As you can check on the top 100 explorers though, it also led many of them not exploring or exploring much less, especially once DW2 reached Beagle Point.

I understand that, which is why I have no issue with Frontier adding something ADS like an an optional extra. And while I'm sure that some "top 100" explorers can't or won't adapt to the FSS have quit exploring, it very well could be that the "slowdown" is due to systems taking longer to process, combined with more things to actually explore in the system.

The trend is clear too: exploration activity is decreasing. Of course, this tends to be the same always, with the only sharp increases historically having been either major updates, some rare pieces of news (CGs or mysteries) that made people want to go out to explore, or the DW2 expedition. (No data for DW1, unfortunately.) Major updates aren't going to happen until the end of next year, new mysteries or exploration CGs are highly unlikely, and another expedition of such scale, even more so.
So, I'd say the question isn't how exploration activity is going to change (increase or decrease) before the new era, but at what level it's going to bottom out instead. But hey, if I'll later turn out to be wrong on this, feel free to quote this and rub it in my face

I think you're over emphasizing the "systems per hour" statistic, and not looking at whole picture: there's now much more to do in a system while exploring.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I think you misunderstand me. The point was just that i would like the ping to show the planet types and then FSS/DSS to reveal more details. So basically take some of the stuff out of the FSS (showing body types) and putting them back into the ping.

The problem with this of course is, you get that, then you don't need to FSS, you would just fly to the planet and DSS it anyway.... hmm.... unless the DSS only gave POIs and nothing more so the FSS was still required for all the planet stats. That could work... maybe?

Why would you? Unless it is right next to you (in which case it'll be autoscanned) it'll still be much faster to scan it using the FSS.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Please don't do that to me again. One of the best part of exploring IMO is filling in the maps of the game, the gradual reveal of the secrets of the world hidden by the proverbial "fog of war." Let it be an optional extra. It's bad enough that systems others have visited get spoiled by unwanted information. I do not want a return of the bad old days where such spoilers were mandatory.

That's what many of us has been saying for the last 6 months!

 

[marx]

It would be premature to relate these numbers to the FSS alone (not that I'm saying you were suggesting that). There are other factors likely come into play as well. The new POIs came as a disappointment to some/many(?) while the giant postpone to end of 2020 certainly has repelled some of the more impatient players. Not sure how that synchronizes with the introduction of the FSS though. Too lazy to check right now.

To be fair, not a lot of players stopped right at the introduction of the FSS: it seems almost everyone decided to give it a fair try once it went live. Then there was DW2 as well. Increases tend to synchronize up with certain events nicely, decreases noticeably less so.

That's one interpretation of that data. The thing is that under the ADS system, you could see if a system to see if it's "worth exploring" once every 45 seconds to one minute. One of the chief complaints about the FSS is that completing this step this takes considerably longer. If new systems are being added at the same rate, and each system visited takes considerably longer to see if its "worth exploring," wouldn't that indicate that more people are actually exploring?

A good point, but not quite. The data also shows that the interest in scanning stuff, which is much easier now, has dropped from the FSS launch peak of 8.33 and the DW2 peak of 10 bodies per system on average to 4 these days. Bearing in mind that systems contain 10-12 bodies on average (depends on which part of the galaxy they are in), that at least means that people are cherry-picking more heavily now.
However, there is also another interesting statistic: the number of ELWs uploaded. This is actually quite comparable to the old system, because even the heaviest cherry-pickers wouldn't pass up on those (pre-FSS), unless they didn't actually notice them. Historically, after the Return and before the FSS, the ELW / Sys ratio moved around 0.5-0.6%. The introduction of the FSS increased that to a 0.74% peak (no surprise, as you get them handed to you on a silver platter now), but from the end of March to the end of May, it dropped down to 0.31%. The same level as much earlier days. In that sense, if you define "actual" exploration as bodies scanned, then with DW2 being over, activity was halved.

And while I'm sure that some "top 100" explorers can't or won't adapt to the FSS have quit exploring

You'll find that the majority of them didn't quit right at its launch. Looking at those heat maps, I'd say that most people gave it a fair go.

[...] it very well could be that the "slowdown" is due to systems taking longer to process, combined with more things to actually explore in the system.

Nope, the only things were added were a few more things to find, but there aren't any new environments to explore. This is just an anecdote, but personally, I don't know anyone who packed up at the launch of Chapter Four and quit without giving the FSS a good go.

I think you're over emphasizing the "systems per hour" statistic, and not looking at whole picture: there's now much more to do in a system while exploring.

A good point, but I've included other statistics now... and they paint a less pretty picture.

There is much more to do, sure, but only for the same amount of things to discover - that's not really a recipe for longevity. Personally, I don't count that as a good thing, and I'd rather have more to do and more to discover.
Mind you, this is assuming that you do full system scans, but most people don't. The majority gave that a fair try though, and obviously they've concluded it's not fun enough for them to continue doing so.
For picking cherries, which is the main activity (planned by the devs too), there's roughly the same amount of things to do, just in less time - and with less of the rarest rewards. Many more credits and tags though, plus surface POIs to discover - although Frontier have managed to shoot that in the foot, what with the long wait times for the frame rate-dependent scans to finish.

To be fair, there are two things that the Chapter Four update did well for me. Bear in mind that I like to analyse the crowd-sourced data. First, the star auto-scanner was great there. No more "why the bleep did you not scan even the arrival star when you scanned an Earth-like" moments. (This did happen often.) Second, even with the current rate of 4 bodies per system scanned, that's still a bit over twice as many as peak(!) levels before. Third, now that ammonia worlds are trivial to recognise (plus no travel times), people scan many more of them. So while exploration became less enjoyable for me, I do enjoy there being more data to go through.

 

[Faded Glory]

As for the FSS gives more information: nope. A good part of the complaints against it aren't just due to how it was designed, but also how it hides information we used to have before scanning. Now, unless you're going for singular body types, you have to fully explore a system if you want to determine whether it would be worth exploring. Some examples of what are missing at an overview level: orbital hierarchies (for finding rare configurations), visuals (for finding Glowing Green Giants, plus other large surface features), distance to arrival point (for finding trojans), and perhaps something else that I forgot.

This was one of my main objections to the FSS from very early on, that having to scan something to determine whether you want to scan it is poor game design.

I'm happy to admit that I was incorrect about this when it comes to 'traditional' exploration - finding ELW's and the like. The FSS is absolutely fine for that kind of exploration. But the examples you have given, and I too have given before show that this one size fits all won't satisfy or accommodate everybody.

But FD could seemingly make everybody happy by simply making the FSS itself more granular or modular and providing more choices (with trade offs) in how people choose to explore.

The base FSS does what it currently does, has the ability from within the interface to scan all bodies in a system by locating them and zooming in.

Additional modules provide:

1. An energy spectrum readout - for those who would prefer more mystery, don't fit it. Want to know what's there, get scanning.

2. A visual representation that gives grey orbs - for those who want to target and fly to bodies but still want some mystery as to what is there, would like to use their skill and experience to guess or predict what types of bodies might be there, or perhaps those who are looking for strange orbits but don't want planet type spoilers.

3. As above, but with graphical representations - for those who are looking for the glowing gas giants.

Each module upgrade could have a cost in terms of credits, energy use, weight, module slot, whatever was deemed an interesting trade off, but people would still be able to explore their way, using the FSS or not using it and flying to bodies, and surely the more choices available, the more players are likely to engage in the activity.

As others have pointed out, imposing a one size fits all gameplay to an activity that has the potential to be so varied seems like a bad idea. The FSS, like any module in the game, should be something people want to use for its strengths, not be forced to use because it's the only way to do something.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

This was one of my main objections to the FSS from very early on, that having to scan something to determine whether you want to scan it is poor game design.

I'm happy to admit that I was incorrect about this when it comes to 'traditional' exploration - finding ELW's and the like. The FSS is absolutely fine for that kind of exploration. But the examples you have given, and I too have given before show that this one size fits all won't satisfy or accommodate everybody.

But FD could seemingly make everybody happy by simply making the FSS itself more granular or modular and providing more choices (with trade offs) in how people choose to explore.

The base FSS does what it currently does, has the ability from within the interface to scan all bodies in a system by locating them and zooming in.

Additional modules provide:

1. An energy spectrum readout - for those who would prefer more mystery, don't fit it. Want to know what's there, get scanning.

2. A visual representation that gives grey orbs - for those who want to target and fly to bodies but still want some mystery as to what is there, would like to use their skill and experience to guess or predict what types of bodies might be there, or perhaps those who are looking for strange orbits but don't want planet type spoilers.

3. As above, but with graphical representations - for those who are looking for the glowing gas giants.

Each module upgrade could have a cost in terms of credits, energy use, weight, module slot, whatever was deemed an interesting trade off, but people would still be able to explore their way, using the FSS or not using it and flying to bodies, and surely the more choices available, the more players are likely to engage in the activity.

As others have pointed out, imposing a one size fits all gameplay to an activity that has the potential to be so varied seems like a bad idea. The FSS, like any module in the game, should be something people want to use for its strengths, not be forced to use because it's the only way to do something.

400,000,000,000 stars
4,000,000,000,000 planets

1 tool to map the stars
1 tool to map the planets
2 different types of cargo hold

Edit:
Actually I'm not being entirely fair - since the old-DSS functionality never got removed, there are technically 2 tools to map the stars, except they don't actually talk to each other so the FSS doesn't know that the old-DSS has scanned something.

 

[Faded Glory]

400,000,000,000 stars
4,000,000,000,000 planets

1 tool to map the stars
1 tool to map the planets
2 different types of cargo hold

Well yes...

I'm sure the devs really felt they were on to a winner with the FSS for the simple reason that it addressed two things that I suspect alienated a lot (not all) players when it came to exploration. Passive gameplay and long SC journeys that ended up with passive gameplay.

Equally, I'm pretty sure that their intention is to move the focus for exploration down to the planet surface, and again, the FSS is the tool to use for that. No need to fly out to body in the hope that there's something to see, the FSS lets you know that your journey will have a purpose and a result.

So clearly they know that gameplay is better when one activity leads on to another, where one activity provides the impetus or information needed to move on to the next step.

I do find it strange though that they didn't feel that it would be good to support that part of the community who are / were dedicating their time to exploring the stellar forge. Perhaps there are technical reasons why this might be not be possible, but it's hard to see that as the case when the FSS works as it does in systems previously discovered by another player, and that, at the most simplistic level and as an optional module, is something that would go some way towards accommodating those who want to explore differently.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Well yes...

I'm sure the devs really felt they were on to a winner with the FSS for the simple reason that it addressed two things that I suspect alienated a lot (not all) players when it came to exploration. Passive gameplay and long SC journeys that ended up with passive gameplay.

Equally, I'm pretty sure that their intention is to move the focus for exploration down to the planet surface, and again, the FSS is the tool to use for that. No need to fly out to body in the hope that there's something to see, the FSS lets you know that your journey will have a purpose and a result.

So clearly they know that gameplay is better when one activity leads on to another, where one activity provides the impetus or information needed to move on to the next step.

I do find it strange though that they didn't feel that it would be good to support that part of the community who are / were dedicating their time to exploring the stellar forge. Perhaps there are technical reasons why this might be not be possible, but it's hard to see that as the case when the FSS works as it does in systems previously discovered by another player, and that, at the most simplistic level and as an optional module, is something that would go some way towards accommodating those who want to explore differently.

By making 'finding things' the focus of 'exploration' gameplay they've made the galaxy a comfortable 1,000,000x larger than it needed to be (arguably 1,000,000,000x). Every sector of the galaxy is seeded with (almost) exactly the same things to find, so there's no actual reason to travel outside the Inner Orion Spur.

The one unique feature of ED is the 1:1 representation of the Milky Way - but FDev don't appear to care about that any more. They'd rather create more ships and weapons to appeal to the 'instant action' gamers, even to the point of trying to make exploration feel the same. I can't wait for the 'new era'

 

[Enderby]

I just think the blob-pointing aspect is really crud.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I agree the early implementation of objects is pretty basic but that's almost OT as the FSS is certainly not to blame for that, that's a different topic. But then the game was never developed with some new functionality coming feature complete from day one. And that goes (more or less, the very beginning excluded) throughout the whole development cycle.

This was the long awaited, much vaunted exploration update, not some minor iterative upgrade. They had 4 years to decide what do with exploration mechanics and they went with 'make it quicker and easier'. They couldn't even be consistent in whether you can target and 'sample' all the shiny things they put in.

I think you're being wildly optimistic if you believe this is just the first step towards multi-layered, galaxy-spanning exploration gameplay. We'll get a few new things to scan for the codex and take pictures in front of - either on a human scale (spacelegs) or in shades of green (atmospheric planets).

 

[lenna]

Equally, I'm pretty sure that their intention is to move the focus for exploration down to the planet surface, and again, the FSS is the tool to use for that.

IMO it is not, the ONLY aspect the FSS truely addresses is remote location and identification of space based POIs. If they had introduced it simply for that I then think I could have lived with the mechanic pretty much as-is but instead they messed up the acquisition of L3 scans by trying to enforce it's use for them too.

I just think the blob-pointing aspect is really crud.

It is perhaps the only way they could have implemented what they were trying to implement though. The problem is that ultimately they added a barrier rather than an alternative to pre-existing gameplay.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

So summarising the "what is exploring?" sub-sub-thread...

they did away with the need to SC in exploration and still get tags and credits unless you want to fly to the body to map it.

You still need to SC to explore. Saying you don't is just a lie.

You need SC to map, but mapping non-landable bodies provides nothing except credits. It's essentially a KWS for planets.

Therefore, you don't NEED to SC to explore.

Jumping from system to system simply to discover what's in those systems is, by definition, exploring.

Explore
verb
1. travel through (an unfamiliar area) in order to learn about it.

It requires no travel to planets.

I stick by what I said. It's a lie and all you are doing is trying to justify that lie when you can't.

I feel so sad. Here I am returning from Beagle Point, over 65,000 Ly, discovering hundreds of new systems and planets, collecting oodles of exploration data that nobody else has ever collected...

But apparently I'm NOT exploring, and I'm lying if I say I am.

 

[Riverside]

But apparently I'm NOT exploring, and I'm lying if I say I am.

I am a self described wayward wanderer

I think debating the definition of exploration is pointless, different people travel around with a greater or lesser degree of planning & record keeping. It really doesn't matter what others choose to do out there, and if it does then just get back faster to sell your data before they do