I'm not so sure about that, there are some pretty sadistic UX in game too, the game is good enough so that you bit your tongue and bare them, but they are there.
That is not a complaint, I respect the design choices.
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Could griefers be turned into a feature?
- Thread starter Wily Rites
- Start date
That is not a complaint, I respect the design choices.
But this is exactly what you are doing- compartmentalizing what you see as a problem when its the system itself that should be interacting and influencing such players.
Done right, players who kill others would find easy access to high end ships, repairs, rebuys, access etc taken away from more and more of the galaxy- but at the same time would (via in game means) be able to mitigate those drawbacks. For example it would make anarchy have a role (like this idea) https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...sible-for-player-assets-such-as-ships.597257/ so that someone who wants to kill others can, but they have to still engage with the game.
Persistent criminals would eventually be forced to base in anarchies, which to me is more natural a fit and done 100% with the BGS we have now.
You will always get this kind of behaviour, it should be on the fringes of the bubble, not slap bang in its centre. That is the unrealistic part, I'm just interested in the realism, think that the astronomically realistic model is one of the games crowning achievements and features, now if they could model human psychology and its pathologies correctly, this would be an utterly incredible experience, rather than just an amazing one.
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Heck, I'm approaching 50, have spent time working at sea professionally, and as such am no stranger to pulling all-nighters. I'm on shore for health reasons, this game has given me back that sense of awe and wonder that you get when traveling the oceans. Anyone who has not experienced the milky-way on a clear night in the middle of a sea, from a small vessel, has not yet lived, heck not yet been fully born.
I have pulled several all nighters whilst playing; The game makes me feel alive in the same way that seafaring does, it is that good! Then ... 'blam' ... a reaver/greifer/ganker ... and what a shame oh yes, this is just another video game.
I'm saying that it is not at all realistic, in a galaxy that is ... Not due to any engineering mis-match or other, but due to the lack of camaraderie and mutual respect for the dangerous environment. As I've said before, this kind of spineless behaviour is out of place; There is honour amongst thieves, the danger of their environment wills it.
Psychopathy is a parasitic mode of functionality that is only fitting at the very top of the chain, the heads, and on its fringes; When it is found in the middle ground, that is when the whole falls apart, it is the manifestation of dissolution.
40,000 folks forming their own group to get away from the open model, is compartmentalisation, whereas suggesting that certain behaviour patterns be cause to induce a virus or symptoms of space madness, is not; One is just that, compartmentalisation, whereas the other a suggestion for a new feature. All of this is in line with your observation though, which I agree with, that it be the system itself that needs to acts to balance or iron out this kink.
Ohh no! I have suggested that Greifers are a kink, now that will just encourage them!
I have pulled several all nighters whilst playing; The game makes me feel alive in the same way that seafaring does, it is that good! Then ... 'blam' ... a reaver/greifer/ganker ... and what a shame oh yes, this is just another video game.
I'm saying that it is not at all realistic, in a galaxy that is ... Not due to any engineering mis-match or other, but due to the lack of camaraderie and mutual respect for the dangerous environment. As I've said before, this kind of spineless behaviour is out of place; There is honour amongst thieves, the danger of their environment wills it.
Psychopathy is a parasitic mode of functionality that is only fitting at the very top of the chain, the heads, and on its fringes; When it is found in the middle ground, that is when the whole falls apart, it is the manifestation of dissolution.
40,000 folks forming their own group to get away from the open model, is compartmentalisation, whereas suggesting that certain behaviour patterns be cause to induce a virus or symptoms of space madness, is not; One is just that, compartmentalisation, whereas the other a suggestion for a new feature. All of this is in line with your observation though, which I agree with, that it be the system itself that needs to acts to balance or iron out this kink.
Ohh no! I have suggested that Greifers are a kink, now that will just encourage them!
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The play area is too big and the population of gamers on Earth too small to give you the encounters you are looking for. Not to mention that once you get to a certain number of commanders in one instance the game can suffer from all sorts of issues.
Also not everyone wants to play in multiplayer.
Lol, and players would go on a crusade to eliminate all anarchies just to deny the gankers a port!
Two ways to approach this (IMO):
A) no damage of any sorts - no weapon damage, no ram damage.
No player induced bounties or fines.
Somehow tricky would be if someone is ramming someone else into another asset (ground, station) - but this shenanigan could be reported and the offenders banned from the mode.
B) A Gentleman's agreement
If you join the PVE mode you, agree not to harm, damage whatever, other players
If you do it, you get a warning, then a temporary ban then a perma ban from the mode. All automatic, so potential griefers would not last long in the PVE mode.
Or even an outright ban at the first offense with the possibility to appeal.
Or a combination of both A and B - and i'm pretty sure the system can be automated and refined to be quite effective.
After all, you only get banned from the Coop mode, not from open/pg/solo
IMO there are ways to work a coop mode in ED, but i dont think a coop mode was ever part of the ED vision and DBOBE was extremely naive to think ED free for all mode would be all highs and no lows (no griefing no ganking)
Perhaps some would, but this is exactly what I was getting at in my previous post. Anarchies should be dicey places to visit - hives of scum and villainy. High Security should be about as risky as popping to your local supermarket. The borders between the powers should be antagonistic.Lol, and players would go on a crusade to eliminate all anarchies just to deny the gankers a port!
I’m not looking for complete safety in the entire universe, but it would be awfully nice to have it somewhere. Instead we have nothing but toothless powers that can start an interspecies war, but can’t seem to take down that one guy in Times Square who keeps running up and stabbing all the tourists to death. It’s idiotic.
All I need to know about how broken it all is, is that I feel safest once I get about 1000 LY outside the bubble (except for guardian sites and material farms). The only reason I’m not in Open all the time out in the black is that the high rez screen cap camera only works in solo/PG. But in the bubble, I’m solo or PG 99.9% of the time.
It’s nice to vent about this, but I have no illusions about FDev ever getting it right.
This would NEVER work. We're not dealing with gentlemen.
I remember well when hawhaw gankers invaded Moebius and for several days enjoyed killing and shock there. Oh how joyful they were... No mate, no kind of agreement with that sort is ever possible.
Only "no damage to other player ships possible" would do. Hard codded, not agreed.
Your A) is good.
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I don't think you should hope for Frontier doing something about it, that seems a recipe for disappointment.
On the other hand chances of running into a ganker is really minimal except for in a handful of systems. Playing in open does add a little spice just due to the risk of getting deleted. Maybe you can roleplay them as friends of an NPC that you've killed in the past extracting justice for your past actions?
Well, then they get banned from the PVE/Coop Mode and cannot join that mode anymore.
It's the same for any PG - if you break the PG rules, the PG owner will ban you and you can never join that PG ever again. It happened in the past for both Moebius and Fleetcom when gankers infiltrated the PG and were banned (less dramatic would be to say "they got removed from PG")
I mean, i can see the PVE/Coop mode like a big_open_for_all _PG that has certain rules, and if you break the rules, you get automatically banned from that "PG"
You’ll note in the last line of my post that I have no hope of FDev getting it right.
As to rationalizing griefing behavior and embracing some perverse form of Stockholm Syndrome, no thank you. It is an entirely one-sided transaction and there is zero benefit to me. I don’t get the thrill of danger as I would in a Thargoid encounter or smuggling run, I don’t get the amusement of a pirate player’s creativity in mugging me unless I tell them a joke or contribute some biowaste to their kid’s college fund, I am only assured that whatever I was doing is going to be interrupted, frustrating and costing me time and credits for absolutely nothing in return.
You may as well suggest that I take a load of trade missions, make 17 jumps and go attack a Titan in a shieldless, weaponless Anaconda over and over, losing the cargo and failing the missions. You know what? That would actually be preferable because while it would still be a massive waste of my time, faction rep, and credits, at least I would be seeing some pretty graphics and cool alien ships.
It boggles my mind that the victim-blaming and “have you tried just laying back and letting it happen? Maybe pretend you’re being murdered by [INSERT HOT CELEBRITY]. You might even enjoy it!” crap is so pervasive. There is nothing fun about it. There never will be.
You are correct that the risk of a griefing outside certain systems is overstated, but it’s not zero; I’m based in Shin and visit engineers pretty often. The risk to me is having MY recreation time ruined by some jackhole who gets 30 seconds of fun at my expense, while my night is likely ruined because what I was enjoying and doing to relax has now angered and frustrated me to the point that I just log out. I have enough jackasses and stress to deal with in real life - I’m not willing to be someone else’s “content.”
All of this is academic. I’m not flying in Open except for some special situations and I most likely never will. I encourage everyone else who doesn’t enjoy being trolled by some random internet jackhole to do the same. FDev has provided the official mechanism to do so.
In fact, my number one suggestion to “fix” this (since actual improvements won’t happen) would be to change the order of modes on the login screen to Solo, Private Group, Open.
If FDev can’t or won’t deal with griefing, as nearly every other MMO at least pays lip service to trying to do, then Solo should be the default.
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What to say.. I've been ganked in the past, the last drop for me was when someone blew up my T-9 running station rescues in a CG in Sol. Then I switched to solo for a couple of years. Nowadays I switch between solo, pg and open depending on what I'm doing. If a CG then definitely solo, if flying with some discord friends then mostly PG because that's where they are, otherwise in open. There are occasional attempts on my life in open, but they've been rare and non lethal so far. Maybe because of my rankings or maybe due to no longer flying paper ships. I've been to SD, the engineers, many PP capitals in open lately with hardly a soul around. Yes often in SD there might be someone trying to ram me in the slot, or taking pot shots at me. Often a few ships lurking around Deciat but so far I haven't been attacked there.
My conclusion is to just use the modes as appropriate for what I'm doing. I do think that these 3 modes are somewhat an original sin by Frontier and that it would have been better to have some kind of open PVE mode too, but I think that train probably left the station a long time ago. I also don't understand that we don't have a bounty board with real time location updates of seal clubbers / griefers to turn them into content, but this is what we have.
My conclusion is to just use the modes as appropriate for what I'm doing. I do think that these 3 modes are somewhat an original sin by Frontier and that it would have been better to have some kind of open PVE mode too, but I think that train probably left the station a long time ago. I also don't understand that we don't have a bounty board with real time location updates of seal clubbers / griefers to turn them into content, but this is what we have.
That would have negated my initial horror; I'd go with solo, private group, and then, get your lube it is going to be abusive.
Now that would make for some superb game play!
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I'm amusing my self and testing my engineering at the moment by doing team pirate kill missions alone, great for stocking materials for further engineering too. I'm aware that PvP combat is very different, having the option to take a 'seal clubber needs exterminating mission' when in open mode would be a great way to get into it prepared.
I'm doubting that these folk are the real experts at PvP combat, could be wrong though.
I'm doubting that these folk are the real experts at PvP combat, could be wrong though.
Well there were some player efforts in the past, for instance SPEAR even created a plugin to collect in game information in order to target gankers. Unfortunately that quickly turned very toxic (even went as far as doxing and real life threats), and of course the gankers started blocking SPEAR members... As a funny sideline, my friend that likes to bait gankers spotted a well known SD nuisance doing a CG in solo...
That's a different problem in'it. The idea that a handful of players can jerk the galaxy around like their own yoyo.Lol, and players would go on a crusade to eliminate all anarchies just to deny the gankers a port!
It's not the devs. The devs code what the management orders.
Thats up to them- and it would be up to criminals to fight back or find refuge. The thing is thats all in game, and adds to it rather than sectioning the players some deem defective.Lol, and players would go on a crusade to eliminate all anarchies just to deny the gankers a port!
I agree with pretty much everything here, and probably came across as saltier than I actually am about all of this. I probably fly in open less than you do, but by and large have the same mindset about it all.
And I understand why there’s no “name and shame” as pointed out in your later comment, but the fact that it turned that toxic (not to mention how often this topic comes up on the forum) should be a clear signal to FDev that it’s an issue they should fix. Instead, they sided with the griefers, and here we are. Again.