Day 64 of a broken background sim

[Jmanis]

If you believe its not a problem, go back through the bug forum and see how many have thrown their hands up in frustration and quit playing the BGS game just as FDEV introduced it as a main game feature tied in with squadrons. This should be a concern for anyone interested in the long term health of the game. You are correct in that the BGS can appear to function correctly much of the time, but it is essentially broken. Would you drive a car that sporadically and unexplainably went into reverse on a motorway? "Sure it works fine most of the time so I'm not worried".

This aint our first rodeo and we have been able to navigate through the bugs with workarounds, but it is a terribly frustrating experience even for us old hands. I am so sick of bounty hunting, for instance, which is the only reliable way of winning a bugged war/CW.

Just a reminder.

I'm not trying to say there's no bugs,

This isn't my first rodeo either. Like many, I've been doing this since before Lugh.

Again, you say your problem is inconsistency. I just said I've had consistent experiences for the last 40 days in my neck of the woods. When you're ready to hear that out, I'm here.

 

[Schlack]

No-one's mentioned it much because it's not a bug, and while there is an underlying design issue it's minor compared to some of the other problems.

Investment is - as of 3.3, as documented by FDev - no longer linked to expansion at all. Instead, it's caused by positive economic activity. So few of those factions went into expansion in the first place, and those that did will have completed normally regardless of the presence or absence of investment. There is still a "fail to expand, expand further next time" effect, but it's no longer linked to the investment state. The expansions you're assuming existed were never there in the first place.

Investment, in its new role as a slider rather than a bucket state, can potentially last indefinitely. Negative economic activity is difficult to do and in any even slightly-trafficed system will be massively overwhelmed by background positive activity from non-aligned players just doing stuff. So systems tend to drift towards Investment, in general, unless extremely focused negative economic activity takes place. The negative economic states can be achieved, but generally aren't.

The underlying design issue is that as a result of this controlling factions tend to end up pushed at the top of the Investment bar and don't go anywhere else. That's not a bug, it's just that there are far more players doing positive actions than negative ones. But there perhaps needs to be more balancing around this so that it's easier to put negative effects on some factions.

There are also bugs which mean that negative actions give positive results. E.g. smuggling. This is part of what i meant when i said the bgs appears to be working. It isnt, but its not always immediately apparent.

 

[Schlack]

Just a reminder.


This isn't my first rodeo either. Like many, I've been doing this since before Lugh.

Again, you say your problem is inconsistency. I just said I've had consistent experiences for the last 40 days in my neck of the woods. When you're ready to hear that out, I'm here.

I heard you and am happy for you. The bgs is still broken.

This is a recent distribution of states across the galaxy

 

[Marra Morgan]

So, I really want to post about how, for the last 40 days, the BGS has been functioning entirely as expected in my neck of the woods (=~ 20 systems of low - medium traffic systems, 10-50 pilots per day, including one Powerplay control system).

My only concern is, based on recent experiences in the BGS subforum, and the opinions here, that it's become such an echo-chamber of "BGS is broken" and is so diametrically opposed to the idea of the BGS being less broken than being claimed that it's just not worth it (and it's why I'm not posting particularly much anymore on the BGS subforum)

So yeah, there it is. I'm not trying to say there's no bugs, it wouldn't be the BGS without it. But everything my group does (and doesn't, in the case of opposition) gets reflected as-expected for us, and has done for well over a month now. If you want to know more, feel free to ask.

I just mention this because I see post like Zak's above, and cringe hard when I see someone basing their entire assessment of the BGS off what I see as some pretty hyperbolic comments. Again, not discounting them entirely, but the echo-chamber has really ramped it up.

Excellent post Jmanis. My observations concur on all your points.

 

[Schlack]

Well we can debate the finer points about just how broken the bgs is. What is not in doubt is that many are experiencing severe bugs and we have had to wait more than 2 months for fixes.

 

[Old Duck]

Question for you BGS experts - do the bugs affect the bugs? I see that Thargoids are mighty close to Sol, and I'd like to contribute to the defense of the inner Bubble. I have a ship that's highly effective against T-Scouts, but I wouldn't solo the bigger bugs in it. Before 3.3 dropped, splashing T-Scouts counted towards the defense of a system, but I have no idea how the new BGS (working or broken) deals with Thargoid invasion. Can I just drop into USS with T-Scouts like I used to, or would that just be a waste of time post 3.3?

 

[Jane Turner]

This week - in an election in which we are opposed.....

day 1. 10 points won
day 2 40 points lost
day 3 80 points lost
day 4 no points we decided we had more important priorities and could come back to this system - we won
day 5 no points won.


Its day 6 so we will do nothing and likely go to total victory. Fairly sure this one is "cross-wired"

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Question for you BGS experts - do the bugs affect the bugs? I see that Thargoids are mighty close to Sol, and I'd like to contribute to the defense of the inner Bubble. I have a ship that's highly effective against T-Scouts, but I wouldn't solo the bigger bugs in it. Before 3.3 dropped, splashing T-Scouts counted towards the defense of a system, but I have no idea how the new BGS (working or broken) deals with Thargoid invasion. Can I just drop into USS with T-Scouts like I used to, or would that just be a waste of time post 3.3?

It's not possible to be certain about anything, but successful defences against both Infestation (drop into USS) and Incursion (AX Combat Zones) states have been carried out, so you're probably fine.

 

[Aashenfox]

No-one's mentioned it much because it's not a bug, and while there is an underlying design issue it's minor compared to some of the other problems.

Investment is - as of 3.3, as documented by FDev - no longer linked to expansion at all. Instead, it's caused by positive economic activity. So few of those factions went into expansion in the first place, and those that did will have completed normally regardless of the presence or absence of investment. There is still a "fail to expand, expand further next time" effect, but it's no longer linked to the investment state. The expansions you're assuming existed were never there in the first place.

Investment, in its new role as a slider rather than a bucket state, can potentially last indefinitely. Negative economic activity is difficult to do and in any even slightly-trafficed system will be massively overwhelmed by background positive activity from non-aligned players just doing stuff. So systems tend to drift towards Investment, in general, unless extremely focused negative economic activity takes place. The negative economic states can be achieved, but generally aren't.

The underlying design issue is that as a result of this controlling factions tend to end up pushed at the top of the Investment bar and don't go anywhere else. That's not a bug, it's just that there are far more players doing positive actions than negative ones. But there perhaps needs to be more balancing around this so that it's easier to put negative effects on some factions.

Ah, awesome, the state that was tacked on and has no relation to anything else in teh game (such as HGE content), because it was previously a highly niche state, is now prevalent across the galaxy and it's not a bug, it's working as intended.

That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. /golfclap

How did you find that out by the way?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

How did you find that out by the way?

Mainly a combination of the patch notes and the BGS-related livestreams, plus a bit of confirming observation since.

(For HGEs, Investment now behaves like Boom - you get the two Proto G5s)

 

[Aashenfox]

Mainly a combination of the patch notes and the BGS-related livestreams, plus a bit of confirming observation since.

(For HGEs, Investment now behaves like Boom - you get the two Proto G5s)

I had noted. Bummer. Cheers anyway.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Quick question, is there any document or thread that details the BGS changes or have BGSers been forced to figure it out?

 

[Old Duck]

Quick question, is there any document or thread that details the BGS changes or have BGSers been forced to figure it out?

Documentation is FDev's specialty! Here you go: http://dev/null

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Quick question, is there any document or thread that details the BGS changes or have BGSers been forced to figure it out?

The main official source is the BGS Livestream:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-10-2018)-Background-Simulation-and-Scenarios
...and the recap:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ivestream-Background-Simulation-and-Scenarios

(The Happiness-based changes to Expansion in that are not implemented yet - Expansion works as it did in 3.2 - but the rest is basically accurate, minus the bugs)

 

[Schlack]

The main official source is the BGS Livestream:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-10-2018)-Background-Simulation-and-Scenarios
...and the recap:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ivestream-Background-Simulation-and-Scenarios

(The Happiness-based changes to Expansion in that are not implemented yet - Expansion works as it did in 3.2 - but the rest is basically accurate, minus the bugs)

In fairness to fd, they have flagged bgs changes pretty well for 3.3 and if you recall the previous changes to the bounty system there was a lot of engagment. We as a community wont be able to document the new bgs until its running properly.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I've made it all the way through Season 2, and the extras, and it's still not fixed?

Victoria Season Three isn't available in full yet. Rats. Maybe the dev's are waiting for the season finale too....

 

[DNA-Decay]

Stellar forge binds the galaxy together. BGS is partly RNG overlay intended to paint galaxy alive. Unlike stellar forge, which is constrained by physical properties, BGS doesn’t have to be consistent with other parts of itself.

You are incorrect on a key point:
The BGS had NO random elements.
Every effect was the result of direct CMDR activity.
It was a black box - but you could figure it out.
“Gears” - not “dice”.


It’s almost like there IS an RNG element in the BGS now.
You repeat the inputs under controlled conditions - you get different outputs.

Nope .

Despite the fact they revolve, the ELW bobble head always shows Australia when you exit a jump.

This is working as intended as far as I’m concerned.


Re: “Paint the galaxy alive”
Yes as originally intended, the BGS was something to make the galaxy respond to CMDR activity.
It was not “intended” to be core gameplay.
But early on, when groups like AEDC and the Communists figures out that you could change the GOVERNMENT of a system, that’s when researching the BGS and having it as core gameplay really became a thing. Which has since become a focus and driver for most group activity. There are exceptions like Fuel Rats, SDC and Canonn, but most groups care about and maintain their little empire.

Without group activity, this game will wither.
TBH I’ve been gone a month now. Not even checking the forum obsessively any more.

 

[Flin]

But there perhaps needs to be more balancing around this so that it's easier to put negative effects on some factions.

The bugs around this is probably the main issue for some. Schlack's graph clearly indicate that normal activities generally give positive effect or are bugged to give the wrong effect.

This cause the negative states to be much rarer that before 3.3 and lack of linked HGE materials.

Also, looks like FD modify the BGS to address more 'exploitable' BGS while introducing bugs that create other 'exploitable' situations.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

It’s almost like there IS an RNG element in the BGS now.
You repeat the inputs under controlled conditions - you get different outputs.

A small random element wouldn't be so bad.

But ATM, it appears that it's a coin toss as to whether an action is positive or negative.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I have not started ED yet. Despite being an original KS backer.

I never used my backing goodies to take part in any alpha or beta access, 99% because i just do not have time to playtest a game. So i've been waiting patiently to feel the game is in a state where I can determine it is worth my time to start playing.

So when i read threads like this, it just breaks my heart, and not for myself, but for the rest of you that literally waste your time on a broken game.

Now that is a sentence i'm not posting to send ED players into a fury, but just a possible reasonable evaluation of the situation as it has been since day 1.

The worst part about all this is it did not have to be this way really, there was a proven track record from the previous Elite games that could have been a bigger part of what ED could have been. But i guess ED came along at kind of the wrong time in relation to the games industry, new thinking on what makes a 'good' game was all around (from catching 'whales' to the emergence of the loot box thing and all the 'social' gaming trappings.) and the pressures from all that seem to have left us with a half-baked Elite, that still needs a decent amount of baking.

So this is my +1 post for this issue to stay around and get the required critical mass it seems to need to get a response from the devs on their still broken game.

Sir David, was it your intention to make a game as broken as this one, for as long as it has been? Speaking with the deepest respect and love for the Elite franchise as i have, and so knowing all the history involving outside publisher pressures resulting in previous buggy Elites etc.

Oh and when do you (or anyone at Frontier) think i might want to start playing the most expensive game i've bought?

Just for the record, this person is not me - I would also like to state that I thought I was alone in being the only backer who has NEVER PLAYED ED since the game was launched - and have just 26 hours logged for the alpha.

I agree with everything you say mate - kindred spirits.

My boxed version is still boxed, t-shirt still in it's wrapper; it was opened to verify contents, closed and has been shelved ever since.

Oh and Zak - if you are a KS backer and have never started the game, thus never clicked "agree" to any EULA issued since game launch, you and I need to have a chat. Send me a PM.