Discuss the AI here!

[verminstar]

I can see your point but there are only 2 solutions really. Either you adapt and get better or they roll back the AI update making the NPC brain dead again. In some ways you actually have an advantage as your rank is lower and you haven't got a big expensive ship. A lot of these vets are rapidly losing cash because they are getting minced since they never learned to fight effectively, used crutches like Robigo to get a ship they really don't know how to fly and cashing in bounties worh a fraction of their repair bill (or plain dying). I'm genuinely surprised I'm not seeing a pile of "I flew without insurance and the AI killed me" topics.

Now you absolutely cannot just pick targets at random and really pay attention to the NPC rank knowing what you can safely handle and what to avoid. RES is a bad place to be solo unless you work with the authority vessels or a wing. Know how and when to Rincewind. Don't go into low sec or anarchies unless you really are ready for trouble.

Oh god, assassins are going to be a nightmare now. It is possible to upset too many people in anarchy system and they send a hit squad after you. Last time it happened to me it was 2x Elite rail Sideys, I was in an Eagle and the time between them jumping in and me running was literally about 4 seconds. That is going to be even more unpleasant now

M8 ye may as well be speaking latin to me...I have absolutely no idea what a robigo is...a ship I haven't seen before? Thanks fer not trolling but my mind is made up to not play this today as I had planned...just bored with it now because actual combat is effectively nerfed for me. No fun running constant haulage missions I want pew pew and I'm not gonna get that here until I got a couple billion in the bank and an a rated ship...the way thats going right now, I'm reckoning I might be able to kill something in 6 months or so.

Does that sound like fun?

 

[Hexcaliber]

I was interdicted. That means 4 pips in systems before I'm even pulled out of SC. What do you think I'm just a moron?

With everything you have said so far I have no idea what that means where you are concerned.

You would rather accuse the AI of cheating, of having super weapons, being stacked against you, any excuse except its you or your fit. The reality is you are seeing the same npc ships and weapons as everyone else, you are not running into special cases. You were told what weapons will kill shields quickly, you did not want to hear it, you then blamed it on the fact you are flying a conda, until I told you that's exactly what I have been flying since last night. No, it was easier to start accusing folks of telling you to "git gud", when you were the only one who has said that.

I am done, I am not wasting any more time, you are intent on believing what you will; meanwhile the majority are happy with the improvements to the AI, and others struggling, admit they may need to change builds and tactics.

 

[Soliluna]

It's a game. Meant for amusement. That's what's wrong with that. The Witcher 3 is an excellent example of a hard game that was still easy enough for everyone to enjoy. If you wanted to play on the hardest difficulty, you had to be really good and methodical. Well. Elite Dangerous has now been set to Death March for everyone. In games where you can't set your difficulty, you must be very cautious with NPC difficulty. I guess FD doesn't realize that though. Oh well. Their loss.

To put the importance of learning into perspective, I haven't played W3 on anything more than the hardest difficulty, I mess about trying to choreograph awesome fights with loads of enemies. It is not a challenge. You believe it requires a methodical approach, I know that it requires me pressing one button and one directional key in order to avoid any attack, at any level. I'm currently doing a level 33 mission on Death March as a level 3.

Elite Dangerous is not Death March for everyone. I need to keep repeating this, EASIER AI WAS MADE EASIER.

 

[Dingus Maximus]

I got 7 friends to buy ED a week before engineers release. They got it because i kept raving how much is being added to the game and so on. So to help them out i have been winging up with them in res sites. Im deadly ranked so when i joinef them high paying bounties started appearing and over the week they have managed to A fit their cobras. However now i cant join them because if i do we get the higher ranked NPC just as before but now they pack modded weapons. Cobra sheilds drop in seconds and they died. This is not about skills or git gud. This is about being able to fly with my m8's or any new player. Even when i was in my conda and pottering about im getting interdicted by fdls packing modded weapons which are destroying my 1300mj shields in no time thus is not good for mew players.

Also majority of interdictions are bugged. I submit as soon as it begins cos i know i need to get put asap but guess what......i failed the mini game seconds after it starts. Half the time it start and im not even close to the escape vector which results in instant fail or occasionally instant win. Fail more than win though.

This not good for new players. I have told them to stay away from me like a leppa cos ill likely spawn some crazy modded fdl that will kill them before the kool down start (ok exaggerated but u get the jist)

Dont mind harder npc but crist sort the interdictions out and tone down the modded weapons. May as well play solo at this rate.

 

[gogereaver]

the problem isnt how the ai acts the ai damage scaling is way off. another player pvp anaconda cant tare me up as fast as a npc asp. the damage is litterly beyond a player of any build.

 

[Sans Daring]

But you are clearly not a beginner...you don't have the same perspective as a new player. You can do things with starter ships that those of us who play every day with them could never do.

Two days ago, I was doing that in a sidewinder, albeit with some care...today, simply jumping to an easy res resulted in a very swift death in a mk3 something...the 350k ship.

Of course the older players are happy...but newer players like me are suffering...and when we say we are suffering, you guys jump down our throats telling us we have to "adapt"...starting to feel as though you guys have forgotten what it's like at the bottom...feels as though yer talking down at us and that ain't so cool at all.

For the elitist snobs, this update is the best thing since sliced bread...for the rest of us, it's a nail being hammered into a coffin...I'm actually close to bankrupt now even though my insurance is less than 20k...does that sound like I'm "adapting" to you?

I don't think this is a bastion of "I told you!" but I think its a very constructive way to try and get people to drop the snark and listen to other players. Offer help/advice rather than "patience and git gud" which is just essentially "come back when you're as good as I think you should be, or failing that, learned not to complain unless you are as good as me and we've both got a gripe".

It's about reminding each other we have different situations, rather than judging. I think SJA was pretty good in stating there maybe minor tweaks, but ultimately this is the standard FDev want the AI. That's where we are - so how to we help people find the confidence to take the challenge without too much pain?

 

[Soliluna]

Being good in a bar fight still doesn't make one a better virtual spaceship pilot.

Just like in Elite Dangerous, I'm pretty damn good at running away.

 

[Privata]

man all the tough guys on this forum make me laugh
desk jockeys who in real life couldn't bust a bag of crisps and have the cheek to call other players coward's
yes players because this is a GAME not who you really are just a GAME
god i'd love to see you lot in a bar fight , first place i bet i'd find you is in the toilet

you see this is what you call getting personal

What sort of looser gets in a bar fight? I think thats against the law.

Were talking about spaceship combat , not being good at fighting IRL.
And sins spaceship combat is not real there is no real life measurement to this (not even a pilot because real life pilot is much harder than elite)

Whats wrong with anyone wanting good AI at high ranks?

 

[RAD]

Whoo momma, I got my butt kicked in my Tradaconda after my very first jump in Engineers. I managed to high-wake out of there with my tail between my legs. Looks like I'm going to need to actually equip some external modules now. I appreciate the new challenge though.

 

[De Richleau]

I voted "Just Right."

Wee bit of background, I've been playing since Premium Beta, but am in no way a particularly good combat pilot. I tend to do various different missions, and play as kind of a "Jack of All Trades." I don't worry very much about credits per hour, but even for me 2.0 AI was far too easy.

I think the current state of the AI has the game pretty much where it should be (and where, I suspect, it was meant to be all along.) I want to be in a situation where, if I'm interdicted, my first thought is "how survivable is this," rather than "this is an irritating interuption." The drama in the game for me is taking on a mission and knowing it's not guaranteed that I'll come out of it. It should be risky to go on a trade run to an anarchy. I should be in fear for my life if I do so, otherwise there's very little meaning.

I don't agree with those who say the current AI will be off putting for newcomers. In the Beta, I wiped my save and started again. Because I joined at Premium Beta, I was able to start in the iEagle. I had an absolute blast starting again with that little machine. I started in a hi-sec system and took on missions. I wasn't interdicted that often, but when I was, I could always stay alive long enough for the system security to arrive. These guys are actually pretty effective now, and between me and them we took down the pirate. It was fun, felt alive, and what I thought the game would be like when I first got on board. There are perfectly safe areas of space for starting out in, because although enemy AI is better, so is "friend" AI.

I then wiped that save, and started again with the sidewinder. Again, whilst operating in secure systems it really isn't that hard.

Last night, and back in my real ship (Clipper), I also had great fun. I took on a salvage mission (and the new system for this is so much better than in 2.0), and tracked down the salvage. As I was collecting it in the SRV, an AI was circling me. It said something like "sorry, mistaken identity," but didn't go away. It just kept watching me. I spent the whole time wondering if it would attack as I gathered the stuff up, and if so how would I survive. It made the mission tense and interesting.

Once I had the items I headed into orbit, and found a USS. My system told me it was zero risk. I jumped in, and it turned out it was a trap. An Eagle and a MkIV viper jumped in to get me. In 2.0 this would have been a meaningless inconvenience. Now, it felt like life or death. My 2.0 tactics didn't work. They were getting my shields down. I had to adapt, and managed to take out the Mk IV (I couldn't get near the Eagle.) The system sec cavalry then arrived, and we dealt with the eagle together - they distracted it for long enough for me to get it in my sights and take it down.

I think that in a game like Elite there really isn't much fun without risk. If you win every fight, no matter how good the opponent is supposed to be, then what's the point?

It's not for me to tell anyone how they should play the game of course, but if you play from the stand point of "how am I going to use my wits and skill to survive and prosper in this dangerous galaxy," I think this latest version is immense fun.

 

[DBCloggy]

"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness, that is life."

My encounter felt a lot like a small kid with a limp carryng a peashooter, being cornered by a cross between Usain Bolt and Mike Tyson carrying a baseball bat and an uzi!

 

[Dave1029]

With everything you have said so far I have no idea what that means where you are concerned.

You would rather accuse the AI of cheating, of having super weapons, being stacked against you, any excuse except its you or your fit. The reality is you are seeing the same npc ships and weapons as everyone else, you are not running into special cases. You were told what weapons will kill shields quickly, you did not want to hear it, you then blamed it on the fact you are flying a conda, until I told you that's exactly what I have been flying since last night. No, it was easier to start accusing folks of telling you to "git gud", when you were the only one who has said that.

I am done, I am not wasting any more time, you are intent on believing what you will; meanwhile the majority are happy with the improvements to the AI, and others struggling, admit they may need to change builds and tactics.

The fact that you actually believe the majority are happy makes me laugh. Whatever man.

 

[Privata]

the problem isnt how the ai acts the ai damage scaling is way off. another play pvp anaconda cant tare me up as fast as a npc asp. the damage is litterly beyond a player of any build.

They dont cheat , they deal the same damage as we do.
they might however have some upgrades like we can

 

[gogereaver]

They dont cheat , they deal the same damage as we do.
they might however have some upgrades like we can

trust me they dont. there doing way more then players. been testing this all night.

 

[Soliluna]

I got 7 friends to buy ED a week before engineers release. They got it because i kept raving how much is being added to the game and so on. So to help them out i have been winging up with them in res sites. Im deadly ranked so when i joinef them high paying bounties started appearing and over the week they have managed to A fit their cobras. However now i cant join them because if i do we get the higher ranked NPC just as before but now they pack modded weapons. Cobra sheilds drop in seconds and they died. This is not about skills or git gud. This is about being able to fly with my m8's or any new player. Even when i was in my conda and pottering about im getting interdicted by fdls packing modded weapons which are destroying my 1300mj shields in no time thus is not good for mew players.

Also majority of interdictions are bugged. I submit as soon as it begins cos i know i need to get put asap but guess what......i failed the mini game seconds after it starts. Half the time it start and im not even close to the escape vector which results in instant fail or occasionally instant win. Fail more than win though.

This not good for new players. I have told them to stay away from me like a leppa cos ill likely spawn some crazy modded fdl that will kill them before the kool down start (ok exaggerated but u get the jist)

Dont mind harder npc but crist sort the interdictions out and tone down the modded weapons. May as well play solo at this rate.

Sounds like you need to better defend your friends

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the problem isnt how the ai acts the ai damage scaling is way off. another play pvp anaconda cant tare me up as fast as a npc asp. the damage is litterly beyond a player of any build.

Damage numbers are the same.

 

[Dave1029]

To put the importance of learning into perspective, I haven't played W3 on anything more than the hardest difficulty, I mess about trying to choreograph awesome fights with loads of enemies. It is not a challenge. You believe it requires a methodical approach, I know that it requires me pressing one button and one directional key in order to avoid any attack, at any level. I'm currently doing a level 33 mission on Death March as a level 3.

Elite Dangerous is not Death March for everyone. I need to keep repeating this, EASIER AI WAS MADE EASIER.

Eh that depends on the enemy. Wyverns were very susceptible to side stepping and a strong attack to the back. I killed two of them at the same time plus a royal one as a boss afterwards, on blood and broken bones, 15 levels below them. I got hit once the entire fight. Also check the definition of methodical. My point was the game on death march is difficult. I'd love to see you just breeze through a fight on DM against 30 wolves.

 

[Jacob Marshall]

Nope, it's going to get better. Well, needs another balancing pass perhaps, more variety in tactics (to make mid ranks a little easier), and new skills for higher ranks to make them a little less predictable.

I don't know if this is within your remit, but reading between the lines it seems that the bigger issue here is the number of NPCs that have been Engineered and the disparity in Rank between a CMDR and an NPC.

Pats on the back from Evangelists and 'Combat Jocks' are largely immaterial; you're singing to a very select choir...a choir who would be singing a different tune of their ability to engage in 'Combat' was limited by the introduction of an equivalent Trading or Exploration requirement.

I don't have an issue with a harder A.I., but I'm a niche player and well aware that there are other players who have as much interest in Combat as I do in Trade.

This being the case (?), how are you able to evaluate the skill of an NPC for the general player?

 

[gogereaver]

other then there not/

 

[lien_leposh]

This updated AI is actually forcing people to think about their targets and not just go in 'gun-ho' as we've been used to. I think this is why there is so much chat on this subject atm..
But this is surely much more fun than just shooting fish in a barrel, and let's face it, that's exactly what it's been like up to now.

I've never feared an NPC in this game, pretty much ever.. now we have to approach with caution, make sure you have an exit strategy practiced and working and not just think you can go blasting up an Elite ranked fighter ship in your mildly upgraded Vulture... You're not gonna win every encounter this time and what's wrong with that?

And all of this promotes winging up from time to time to make life easier... and i know, i know, there is always the 'i wanna just play alone' brigade.... FD can't win sometimes it seems...

I think thats the nub of it, but with caveats that the designers should aim to address.

If I go up against an Elite Vulture then I know I will have a heck of a fight in my Corvette. Previsouly they were too stupid at high rank, and everyone must realistically admit that. Now, I will probably lose, as they are hard as nails. Of course they are all full of engineer improvements where I have none.
The reward for such a kill should now be corrospondingly higher IMO.
If I have to develop a tactic to address that then thats fine. The one I was fighting last night was over me like a rash and on my 6 all the time. I might now have to consider dropping off a mine for him to run into, in the hope that it has enough punch to allow me a chance to escape or take advantage.
Tactics and counter tactics. Thats what this is all about.
I refuse to say AI is too hard right now, but I do hope the AI is doing something that's physically possible and I could do in my Vulture (which will come out again soon)

High ranked craft should not target beginners though, as it sounds like they do and that is very important.
Maybe the designers should let you "surrender" and pay off a ransom instead of a horrible death as punishment for being foolish enough to take on something too hard? Just a thought.

 

[Nistevo]

AI is only a bit better at fighting & maneuvers. Only AI with engineered modules are a challenge. Once we get to upgrade our modules, AI will be like shooting fish in a barrel again.