DLC 19 Speculation

[DarthQuell]

Do you really consider yourselves animal lovers? It seems like the entire concept of zoos and conservation hasn't quite sunk in.

I find it funny that nobody has said anything overly negative, you still get mad about us saying any criticism about the Arid pack, then when we explain you say we don't love animals.

We all have our opinions on things. But just like nobody is shutting you down on how you don't like a certain animal, stop making a big deal about the criticisms people have on the packs. People hated the Twilight, I enjoyed it. Thay doesn't mean imma get mad whenever it's brought up

 

[CharlieXGaming]

next week Tuesday is my bet

April 8 (next tuesday) pretty high chance

 

[nutrit]

I find it funny that nobody has said anything overly negative, you still get mad about us saying any criticism about the Arid pack, then when we explain you say we don't love animals

That just says it all. I don’t need to add anything: “Honestly, I feel like having all the ratites and all the bears adds far more value than a 2nd African rhino.
The ratites and bears add much more in the long run than the black rhino. Besides being critically endangered, what's the difference between the black rhino and the white rhino?
When on the other hand, the ostrich goes great in mixed African habitats, the emu is great in mixed Aussie habitats, the rhea is great in mixed SA habitats, the cassowary is complete different than the other 3, and the kiwi is 1 of a kind...
For bears, they all have a different role. Polar bears are uniquely tundra. Brown bears are temperate animals. Sun bears are tropical, arboreal bears. The Sloth and Asian black bears don't add a whole.lot, but at least the sloth bear adds something to India. The ABB is completely different than the grizzly, so they wouldn't overlap at all; plus, it'll be the only arid bear in the game”.

 

[DarthQuell]

That just says it all. I don’t need to add anything: “Honestly, I feel like having all the ratites and all the bears adds far more value than a 2nd African rhino.
The ratites and bears add much more in the long run than the black rhino. Besides being critically endangered, what's the difference between the black rhino and the white rhino?
When on the other hand, the ostrich goes great in mixed African habitats, the emu is great in mixed Aussie habitats, the rhea is great in mixed SA habitats, the cassowary is complete different than the other 3, and the kiwi is 1 of a kind...
For bears, they all have a different role. Polar bears are uniquely tundra. Brown bears are temperate animals. Sun bears are tropical, arboreal bears. The Sloth and Asian black bears don't add a whole.lot, but at least the sloth bear adds something to India. The ABB is completely different than the grizzly, so they wouldn't overlap at all; plus, it'll be the only arid bear in the game”.

And what exactly does it say? All I said was what my preference is, I never said I didn't like the black rhino, I just said what I preferred.
In-game, the black rhino adds nothing besides conservation value. There aren't any new designs we can do differently than what we have.
The other animals can be built in completely different settings. Why are you even getting mad about this?

 

[nutrit]

And what exactly does it say? All I said was what my preference is, I never said I didn't like the black rhino, I just said what I preferred.
In-game, the black rhino adds nothing besides conservation value. There aren't any new designs we can do differently than what we have.
The other animals can be built in completely different settings. Why are you even getting mad about this?

Quell I’m not mad at all. We just see things differently.

 

[DarthQuell]

Quell I’m not mad at all. We just see things differently.

Ok, then I apologize for assuming that.
But, just the same, it's like how Iben put it:
The animals aren't bad. It's the roster.

If we got the black rhino somewhere else, it might've been more popular. But in a pack that most assumed would've been deserts from all over the world but ended up Africa only, it hits harder. Again, now most of us are happy, or at least ambivalent, about it. We've gotten some of the requested animals.
Thay doesn't mean we can't talk about how we'd do it different. Like the South America pack, people would replace the llama. Or the Australia Pack, how they'd replace the dingo

 

[bkfireshark]

Besides being critically endangered, what's the difference between the black rhino and the white rhino?

Plenty actually. They're in completely different genuses, one being Diceros and the other being Ceratotherium. One is evolved to be a browser, the other is evolved to be a grazer. One lives a solitary life, the other lives in crashes of up to 15ish individuals. One is found almost exclusively in Southern Africa, the other ranges much higher north and east in Africa. One is incredibly aggressive and can often die in clashes with their own kind, the other is much less aggressive

 

[The Aardvark]

I agree with your points. But not all those seals or cats are common in zoos right? So "complete the small cat" set with one small cat from each continent - but I saw tons of people after we got 1 small cat that we no longer need any more. Same with the grey seal. There was a ton of backlash against the Dhole being too similar to the Dingo, even though they are from separate continents and do have different biomes.

As someone who originally disliked the dhole a fair bit, I can give you my reasons why I didn't like it exactly:
• it reused all the same animations as the dingo; it had nothing unique in terms of behaviour
• it felt like a bit of a wasted slot, considering how badly everyone wanted other animals from the region (such as gibbons)
• it just didn't look right. It understandably had the shorter, more vibrant summer coat, and that's not everyone's cup of tea but to me it was fine considering it was a tropical-based pack. The real problem was that the model itself was off, the snout was too thin and the proportions weren't right.
Luckily, this problem was fixed later on.
• this one is a bit more personal, but: it was the time when new species/non-replacement mods started to emerge, and to me at least it kind of felt pointless to get such an easily modded animal in a DLC. Of course I have come to the realisation that this is a rather stupid reason to hate on something, especially considering that I can't use mods myself.

In conclusion, now I am neutral to the dhole. I appreciate its inclusion but I don't really care too much about it, it's there but I never use it. I would love to include them in a future Indian or Indonesian zoo though.

My point is just that for whatever reason people want more bear variety than other animals...it's fine. I get it. Bears are cool. But I don't think the variations you've been laying out end up creating such a chasm of difference between "only 1 is fine" and "WE NEED THEM ALL".

As I have said before, I would have been fine with just five, heck even just four bears (polar, grizzly, spectacled, panda), but I see why people would want different bears. I feel like the question we need to ask here is: how interchangeable are they? For example: sloth bear, moon bear and sun bear are all found in the same overall habitat (tropical) and region (South/southeast Asia), but could you easily swap them out for one another? Could you use a sun or moon bear in an Indian themed exhibit, or a sloth bear in a habitat inspired by the temples of Indonesia? And would either a sun or sloth bear work in a more temperate setting?

Let's hypothetically ask the same question about rhinos.
Could you easily swap the black rhino out for the white rhino and vice versa? I'd say yes. Habitat-wise they're pretty much the same. While it can be fun to have variety, this is in my opinion the "wrong" way to have it. It just feels like different cosmetics of the exact same thing... While with bears, what species you choose can impact the way you design the habitat.
With all that being said, I still personally feel that eight is too many, but oh well.

 

[The Aardvark]

Plenty actually. They're in completely different genuses, one being Diceros and the other being Ceratotherium. One is evolved to be a browser, the other is evolved to be a grazer. One lives a solitary life, the other lives in crashes of up to 15ish individuals. One is found almost exclusively in Southern Africa, the other ranges much higher north and east in Africa. One is incredibly aggressive and can often die in clashes with their own kind, the other is much less aggressive

Are any of these traits reflected in the game though?
Sure, the black rhino has access to two "new" food enrichments (which were actually both already usable by the Indian rhino) and it lives in a group of max. 3 individuals instead of 5, but to me it doesn't really feel like a huge deal

 

[DarthQuell]

Plenty actually. They're in completely different genuses, one being Diceros and the other being Ceratotherium. One is evolved to be a browser, the other is evolved to be a grazer. One lives a solitary life, the other lives in crashes of up to 15ish individuals. One is found almost exclusively in Southern Africa, the other ranges much higher north and east in Africa. One is incredibly aggressive and can often die in clashes with their own kind, the other is much less aggressive

But how much does a different genus really add in-game, though? In real-life it means something, but in the game they're practically the same thing. It's as others put it: The black rhino fits a similar niche as the white rhino. Both are African savanna mammals with important conservation history, yes. But they don't play different than each other.

Going back to the ratites, each one has a different role, each with different habitat designs. Kiwis need habitats to replicate nocturnal life. Cassowaries are tropical. The rest can be in mixed habitats of their respective continents.
About the bears, the Asian black bear and the sloth bear along with the HBB don't add much difference than what we have. In the case of the sloth, he has the advantages of being an iconic Indian animal (Jungle Book helped with that). And as stated, American black bears would be the only.ones to be able to tolerate an arid environment...

It's not just about their ecological role, but also what they'd bring to the table in-game. Like the flamingo, the greater is set in Africa and Europe while the American would fit better a Caribbean or jungle setting

 

[KönigDerKaffeebohnen]

Look i like the dhole alot, propaply there number 1 appreciator on these forums, but just saying while i think that the tropical version was more fitting of the pack (even if the subspecies of ussuri is straight up stupid cause its not the tropical one and even a contested subspecies), but it isnt a stretch to say that their temperate to cold climate china and north version would have been leagues more popular

 

[Dinoceratan]

Next week Monday or Tuesday probably, depending on when exact release date is planned.

 

[DarthQuell]

Look i like the dhole alot, propaply there number 1 appreciator on these forums, but just saying while i think that the tropical version was more fitting of the pack (even if the subspecies of ussuri is straight up stupid cause its not the tropical one and even a contested subspecies), but it isnt a stretch to say that their temperate to cold climate china and north version would have been leagues more popular

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I'd argue that we could've gotten a variant for it. Have the dhole then have a fluffier variant, almost like a colormorph

 

[DarthQuell]

All this boils down to how the early days of PlanZo could've had a much more streamlined roster. Instead of the HBB, the more popular EBB. Instead of the Formosan black bear, make it a generic Asian black bear.
There were several odd choices that, in the beginning, hit hard and didnt.make sense. Now, we're pretty much ok with them. There's no animal I dislike; even the HBB I've started to come to terms with in the last year.

But a lot of criticisms could've been avoided had we gotten some slightly different choices. Like the wild water Buffalo over the domestic water Buffalo...

 

[Villanelle]

IMO irl zoos should priotize the black rhino or just make them equally important as the white rhino, but my opinions about irl pratices on zoos matter very little when it comes for what i want, why? cuz this is a zoo game, and for me, the animal and it niches are way more important than they IUCN status, as while the former will affect how i will build habitats, the latter doesn't.

It depends how you play. For me, the ethical questions surrounding certain animals and/or the conservation need for keeping them plays a role in immersion for me. Species that need the support of conservation efforts are a bit more fun for me to play with. I get around the idea of keeping common species, like foxes and raccoons, by pretending they are rescues I am rehabilitating. For this reason I'm one of the few who was actually really happy about the black rhino. For me, it was an excellent choice. I actually cared a lot less about getting the dromedary out of all the Arid pack animals. I couldn't really see all the hype around that.

I also 100% respect anyone who plays differently. There is no 'right way' to play or think about the game. It's a game. Its defined by what makes it fun, and fun is in the eye of the beholder. And my way is probably the minority way but that doesn't make it incorrect. Only better j/k

 

[Villanelle]

Quell I’m not mad at all. We just see things differently.

You do write like you're mad. Tone is a thing

 

[Stygi]

Would ruin the pack imo (or just really disappointing impossible to ruin it with the saki confirmed): Roadrunner and Burrowing Owl.

Would be great for the pack: Coati and Mara.

Would make this the best pack in existence: Another NWM and Jabiru/Brazilian Porcupine.

Would ruin the pack: ABB and Bobcat
Would be great for the pack: Coati and another bird
Would make this the best pack in existence: Another NWM and Mara

The problem with those packs i think is that they were fixed by packs that came out later... and that were never garanteed to even exist (or we don't know maybe all of this is still on their planned roadmap). Like if tortoise and baboon had not been added in ZK pack the Arid pack would still remaing one of the most dissapointing ones. Now in retrospect with the baboon and the tortoise already in game, peccary being added as anniversary and this next pack covering a bit more of American deserts i think the Arid pack adds a lot of variety for desert areas even if most of them are ungulates. I think it's main issues remains on the name and what that implies for the marketing of the pack. Arid is such a broad term that focusing all of the roster in Africa still feels frustrating. But the serious misses on animal picks were and are being covered by later packs so overall i get a better apreciation of it now.

I still believe Arid could have been an absolute banger pack even with just African animals, but the decision to not include the baboon, tortoise or any of the popular African birds was really weird. Especially with the excessive number of ungulates, the black rhino and addax in particular fill very similar niches to animals we already have in game. I would have adored a roster like:
1. African Crested Porcupine
2. Dromedary
3. Somali Wild Ass
4. Hamadryas Baboon
5. African Spurred Tortoise
6. Secretary Bird
7. Grey Crowned Crane

Definitely agree that the pack has aged better with some of the most glaring omissions added in Zookeepers.

Might be a hot take, but I find it kind of hilarious and hypocritical that there are a lot of people hating on the Black Rhino for just being another Rhino(3), but then get super excited about filling out the Ratites(5) and Bears(8)

Personally don't feel the need to complete the bears although I do feel that part of the reason they have ended up feeling so bloated is because we got the Formosan Black Bear and Himalayan Brown Bear in the base game, 2 overly specific subspecies that most people hadn't heard of and aren't common in zoos, the bears also definitely get more leneancy as they are flagship animals and carnivores which are very popular with some parts of the community. Personally would have been totally ok with limiting to just 5 bears

 

[nutrit]

You do write like you're mad. Tone is a thing

I’m super chilled. We don’t have understand each other all the time and that’s really fine with me.

 

[DarthQuell]

Personally don't feel the need to complete the bears although I do feel that part of the reason they have ended up feeling so bloated is because we got the Formosan Black Bear and Himalayan Brown Bear in the base game, 2 overly specific subspecies that most people hadn't heard of and aren't common in zoos, the bears also definitely get more leneancy as they are flagship animals and carnivores which are very popular with some parts of the community. Personally would have been totally ok with limiting to just 5 bears

Yeah, while it's nice to have all the bears, I could've limited it to the followig:

• American black bear
• Polar bear
• Giant panda
• Brown bear
• Sun bear

We get the Bear Necessities and also some variety in there. Not saying I dislike the inclusion of the sloth bear, spectacled Bear, or the Asian black bear, though

 

[Villanelle]

I’m super chilled. We don’t have understand each other all the time and that’s really fine with me.

No completely, that's okay. I was saying it more for your own sake really. You might get a better response from people if you write more neutrally. This kind of stuff:

Do you really consider yourselves animal lovers?

Is just a bit jarring and doesn't put across the impression that you are super chilled.

But getting feedback is rough so please don't take this as heat