DLC20 Discussion (maybe, but why not?)

[TremendousTimAllen]

After this India pack i feel like those gaps are no longer about places lacking animals (with the exceptions of Patagonia/ Tropical South America) but more about types of animals (birds, reptiles, monkeys all around) or specific animals (coati, tree roo, musk ox).

Agreed, the taxonomic and area analysis threads are really interesting to read with regards to this. Since birds are unfortunately unlikely due to the extra effort of creating rigs for turkeys/pelicans etc, I think by far the most lacking group is primates. We would literally need 2 back to back primate packs to bring them to where they belong with regards to both diversity and representation in zoos. And since I've mentioned it I can't help but actually list what I think could go in the packs (3 old world, 3 new world, 1 lemur for each):
Pack 1: Golden Lion Tamarin, Emperor Tamarin, Black Howler Monkey, Gelada, Hanuman Langur, De Brazza's Monkey, Aye-Aye
Pack 2: Common Marmoset, Bolivian Squirrel Monkey, Geoffroy's Spider Monkey, Golden Snub-nosed Monkey, Mantled Guereza, Barbary Macaque, Crowned Lemur

 

[Alexjh]

Some people could make the argument that walruses are on a similar tier due to size and their iconicity with the Arctic.

... I'm talking about me. I'm some people.

I mean, a Canada Pack that got, say, Sea Otter, Walrus, Musk Ox, canada goose and a couple of others (snowshoe hare? Black bear? Wapiti?) would be absolutely rock solid. Walkthrough Snowy Owl and you'd really lock it down haha.

Theres also ones where it may not be the absolute most iconic left, but you could still make something that feels very quintessentially of that country.

I still also maintain a China pack with say yak, mandarin, golden pheasant, raccoon dog, pere davids deer, chinese giant salamander and golden snub nosed monkey would also feel very "China" too

Brazil would be easy to lock down a pack worth of.

 

[Marvinb]

Agreed, the taxonomic and area analysis threads are really interesting to read with regards to this. Since birds are unfortunately unlikely due to the extra effort of creating rigs for turkeys/pelicans etc, I think by far the most lacking group is primates. We would literally need 2 back to back primate packs to bring them to where they belong with regards to both diversity and representation in zoos. And since I've mentioned it I can't help but actually list what I think could go in the packs (3 old world, 3 new world, 1 lemur for each):
Pack 1: Golden Lion Tamarin, Emperor Tamarin, Black Howler Monkey, Gelada, Hanuman Langur, De Brazza's Monkey, Aye-Aye
Pack 2: Common Marmoset, Bolivian Squirrel Monkey, Geoffroy's Spider Monkey, Golden Snub-nosed Monkey, Mantled Guereza, Barbary Macaque, Crowned Lemur

Compared to real life yeah.
But for purposes of Planet Zoo id say we would be in a fine place with the guereza and another south american one, for the most part

 

[Bughs]

In your own words, you are "here for" "clone-rig animals" because that way players "always receive something new". That sounds like mediocrity as opposed to doing the best they possibly can.

Stop twisting my words, please
I said exactly "clone-rig" because since the very first trailers about PlanetZoo they were happily talking about their technology that makes their job easier that they put 'big-cat' rig onto lion, tiger and so, and then they can focus on details than constantly re-animating them all over again. It's a technology they said from the very begining they use and will use. Right now there is already so many new animals and new rigs that I am happy it will make their work easier so they don't have to spend time on animation and focus more on texture and fur details. And I certainly hope they go this way.

There is still so many unique animals to put in the game, as much as there is so many similar animals or subspecies, like zebra ones, to put in the game and just because they feel like clones it doesn't make the animal less important or that it doesn't have fans.
So I won't stop supporting them if they still put some love into the game, and I am not for the idea of "Let's stop with DLCs because the next animals will be all called just 'clone of animal xyz' ..." by the fandom.

 

[Alexjh]

Compared to real life yeah.
But for purposes of Planet Zoo id say we would be in a fine place with the guereza and another south american one, for the most part

I mean, I think for South America though I feel you need at least 3: a marmoset/tamarin, a howler monkey and a spider-monkey cos they all feel like they have specific niches in zoos?

 

[DarthQuell]

I mean, I think for South America though I feel you need at least 3: a marmoset/tamarin, a howler monkey and a spider-monkey cos they all feel like they have specific niches in zoos?

Ideally 3 more, but most realistically just 1. For me, howler or spider, but I'm leaning towards the howler

 

[Alexjh]

Stop twisting my words, please
I said exactly "clone-rig" because since the very first trailers about PlanetZoo they were happily talking about their technology that makes their job easier that they put 'big-cat' rig onto lion, tiger and so, and then they can focus on details than constantly re-animating them all over again. It's a technology they said from the very begining they use and will use. Right now there is already so many new animals and new rigs that I am happy it will make their work easier so they don't have to spend time on animation and focus more on texture and fur details. And I certainly hope they go this way.

There is still so many unique animals to put in the game, as much as there is so many similar animals or subspecies, like zebra ones, to put in the game and just because they feel like clones it doesn't make the animal less important or that it doesn't have fans.
So I won't stop supporting them if they still put some love into the game, and I am not for the idea of "Let's stop with DLCs because the next animals will be all called just 'clone of animal xyz' ..." by the fandom.

I think the thing is less about rigs specifically than making the animations from scratch. For instance I'm 99% sure the reason they've avoided New World Monkeys despite the demand and definitely having monkey rigs of similar shapes is that the way they each climb and locomote is radically different betseen species, especially where prehensile tails are involved.

 

[Alexjh]

Ideally 3 more, but most realistically just 1. For me, howler or spider, but I'm leaning towards the howler

Okay, I just checked something about my 2nd most local zoo and maybe this explains my high primate standards.

 

[Bughs]

I think the thing is less about rigs specifically than making the animations from scratch. For instance I'm 99% sure the reason they've avoided New World Monkeys despite the demand and definitely having monkey rigs of similar shapes is that the way they each climb and locomote is radically different betseen species, especially where prehensile tails are involved.

Yeah, hopefuly they will find a way to get it working. Remember how long people were asking for tapir remodel it seemed like they don't care. But then they were working on saiga, realized they need to find a way how to make their unique snout moving, someone did their homework and found the way and they were suddenly THAT'S it! This is what we needed for the tapir to look better! ...And off they went to finaly remodel the tapir.
Sometimes it's a little thing but someone needs to figure out the small thing, and without it it seems unreachable. Like many animals before they introduced walk through exibits. We don't know the background of why they can't do it just now. And either it will suddenly comes out or it will be stuck forever.
The team is said to be smaller now, isn't it? :/

 

[SuzieSky]

These are the core of what I'm missing. If I get this before support ends, I'd be thrilled:

• Golden Lion Tamarin: My all-time favorite zoo animal
• American Black Bear: My big-star local species
• Serval: a missing favorite
• Flying Birds: If at all possible, they'd be awesome. Macaws, budgies, kookaburras, cockatoos, toucans, hornbills, bald eagles, snowy owls, and eagle owls are the big ones for me. I don't expect them anymore, but I still have hope.
• Koi: If at all possible, they would be wonderful for my watery areas.
• Mixed Wetlands Birds: A grey crowned crane and the big 3 ducks would make the bird situation a lot better. With them and the existing animals, I could build wetlands areas, duck ponds, and have enough for an ok bird house. I have some favorites, but I'm a little more flexible with the species here.
• More Monkeys: I'm mostly eyeing the spider monkey, guereza, and another tamarin to give me a few good options for bigger zoos or when I get tired of the limited in-game options. I have some favorites, but I'm a little more flexible with the species here.
• Tree Roo: It is adorable, and I want it.
• Coati and Muntjac: They aren't my favorites like some of the others, but I see them in zoos rather often, and there isn't much to take their place right now.

Gaps I still see in the roster:

• By Region:
  • North America:
    • Black bear: It's the last missing big carnivoran. Its absence is obvious, and it is super iconic for the region.
    • Birds: An endemic bird and a waterfowl would do wonders; the American flamingo barely counts. Bald eagles would be really awesome if possible.
    • Deer?
  • South America:
    • Monkeys: Tamarins are super common in zoos. Howler, squirrel, and spider monkeys are common in zoos and would be useful. The saki and capuchin don't quite cut it.
    • Flying Birds: Macaws, please. I also see a lot of toucans, conures, ibises, and spoonbills in zoos. The condor, vulture, and harpy eagle are also cool.
    • Coati: Pretty basic zoo animal
    • Mara: ditto and finishes Patagonia
    • Giant Fish: The Amazon river has cool stuff if we ever get fish. A turtle would be good, too.
  • Africa:
    • Tropical Monkeys: colobus monkeys and guenons are super common in zoos.
    • Serval: Pretty basic zoo animal
    • Birds: So many good options!
    • Crocodile: Their absence has been noted.
    • Chameleon: Favorite exhibit animal of many
  • Asia:
    • Indian Savannah: Probably going to be addressed in the next pack, but the Indian savannah is currently lacking.
    • Cobra and Other Exhibit Animals: Cobras are wildly popular. Geckos and pythons are also kind of basic.
    • East Asian Zoo Essentials: The Chinese playerbase is huge, and after hearing from them and visiting 2 zoos, I think the GSNM, at least one deer, ornamental birds, and maybe the alligator (or maybe croc lizard or salamander) are pretty essential. Koi ponds are basic.
  • Australia:
    • Echidna: It is in the soundtrack.
    • Monitor: Weird not to have one from this region
    • Marsupials: Tree Roos are the favorite, but I think I'd need a few more marsupials beyond that to build a really good Australian zoo.
  • Europe:
    • Critter: The rabbit, marmot, wild cat, marten, and otter all seem decent and possible. I hope they add ~1-2 that make most European players happy, but I don't specifically need any of them.
  • Arctic:
    • Muskox
  • Oceans:
    • Walrus, Sea Turtle, Sea Otter: These seem like the core of a potential coastal pack
    • Birds: Pelicans and maybe a rockhopper penguin would be cool.
    • Manatee: Most likely fully aquatic animal
    • Big Fish, Sharks, and Rays: Neat but unlikely
    • Cetaceans: Love them IRL but don't expect in PZ
• By Taxa:
  • Flying Birds: A few in WEs would be amazing. I don't think they're coming, but I haven't quite given up hope.
  • Monkeys: Tamarins are the most obvious to me, and a howler/spider and a guereza are also important to shore up the biggest holes. Guenons, langurs, regional picks, and more from SA would be nice as well. There are plenty of good/important options remaining.
  • Habitat Birds: Ducks and the grey crowned crane would kind of 'complete' the existing lineup for me, but I hope the lineup at least expands to include pheasants, at least one pelican, at least one ibis, a turkey, and a secretary bird. There are plenty of good/important options remaining.
  • Carnivorans: The black bear, coati, and serval are the last missing 'basics' I can see. Ferrets, martens, civets, mongooses, ~2 extra pinnipeds, EBB, ERO, a few cats, and a few more dogs would be nice, but I don't consider them at all necessary from someone who loves carnivorans.
  • Ungulates: Muntjacs, blackbucks, and maybe muskox are the only ones that seem important to me, but there are plenty of cool nice-to-haves and a few minor taxon gaps that I don't think need to be addressed.
  • Other Mammals: A few more marsupials would be cool and useful for building realistic Australian zoos, but I'm not losing sleep over them. Tamanduas are awesome. A rabbit would be nice. There are a bunch of cool small rodents, but most might not work well in PZ.
  • Reptiles: I'm actually fine with the current habitat lineup, but a few more would be nice.
  • Fully Aquatics: Cool but I don't expect them. I have a shred of hope for koi and manatees.

 

[Mjmannella]

I said exactly "clone-rig" because since the very first trailers about PlanetZoo they were happily talking about their technology that makes their job easier that they put 'big-cat' rig onto lion, tiger and so, and then they can focus on details than constantly re-animating them all over again. It's a technology they said from the very begining they use and will use. Right now there is already so many new animals and new rigs that I am happy it will make their work easier so they don't have to spend time on animation and focus more on texture and fur details. And I certainly hope they go this way.

I don't think anyone here is saying that every animal should come with a brand new animation set. It would be a huge waste of time if that was the case. And honestly, I could say that tigers and all other cats are just be clones of each other, depending on how we want to define that term. But this model can only go so far. You can't really make animals like tree-kangaroos, spider monkeys, and pelicans with our existing animation sets. And these are the higher-level animals that people have asked to be made for several years. Banking on recycling old animation sets just isn't putting in as much effort.
Bit of an aside, but I tend to refrain from using the word "rig" as a noun since it feels somewhat misused IMO. The way animal models work (AFAIK) is that the mesh is rigged onto a series of bones which are moved to create animation frames. Each animation exists as part of a set that collectively determines how the model moves. This process also includes weighting the model and its bones as desired to since as sense of weight to the model.

There is still so many unique animals to put in the game, as much as there is so many similar animals or subspecies, like zebra ones, to put in the game and just because they feel like clones it doesn't make the animal less important or that it doesn't have fans.

You yourself are calling them clones, so there seems to be some inconsistency as to if it's personal sentiment or not.

I am not for the idea of "Let's stop with DLCs because the next animals will be all called just 'clone of animal xyz' ..." by the fandom.

The argument made by myself and others is that ending support to go work on a sequel gives an opportunity to start things from scratch and really give a critical look as to where priorities aught to lie. DLC is inherently limited by the base game. Naturally, a fresh base means that subsequent DLC has more potential than it currently does. It also means being able to work on more complex animals with less pressure to meet impending deadlines. Never hurts to have a clean slate for future prosperity.

 

[NachoB]

Ideally 3 more, but most realistically just 1. For me, howler or spider, but I'm leaning towards the howler

Ideally would be four: howler, spider, squirrel and a tamarin.

For África at least two tropical and one savanah? Mantled guereza and diana or de brazzas monkey or any other colobus and maybe vervet or patas monkeys for sabana?

 

[DarthQuell]

Ideally would be four: howler, spider, squirrel and a tamarin.

For África at least two tropical and one savanah? Mantled guereza and diana or de brazzas monkey or any other colobus and maybe vervet or patas monkeys for sabana?

Dang, I keep forgetting about the squirrel monkey...

Africa, yeah that's pretty much what I'd go for. And heck, for Asia I'd still go for 1 more, a langur

 

[Marvinb]

Ideally would be four: howler, spider, squirrel and a tamarin.

For África at least two tropical and one savanah? Mantled guereza and diana or de brazzas monkey or any other colobus and maybe vervet or patas monkeys for sabana?

If were talking ideal, perfect world id also like one for south east asia. And then either grey langur or rhesus macaque as a versatile pick for their large range and wide array of biomes

 

[Leaf Productions]

What if the Wolverine doesn't have sexual dimorphism

 

[Bughs]

Leaf..... XDD

 

[DarthQuell]

What if the Wolverine doesn't have sexual dimorphism

No worries, Leaf:

 

[NachoB]

No worries, Leaf:
View attachment 431247
View attachment 431248

So female wolverines have two claws. Got it.

 

[Iben]

Bit of an aside, but I tend to refrain from using the word "rig" as a noun since it feels somewhat misused IMO. The way animal models work (AFAIK) is that the mesh is rigged onto a series of bones which are moved to create animation frames. Each animation exists as part of a set that collectively determines how the model moves. This process also includes weighting the model and its bones as desired to since as sense of weight to the model.

Using it as a noun is perfectly fine, because as you said, it's just a series of bones that will move when an animation is played. Use it for anything else and you're indeed not "somewhat" misusing it, but completely incorrect.

But as @Bughs pointed out, almost every animal in PZ has a custom "bespoke" rig because of their software and approach to animations and rigs. Even most animation sets feature a smart combination of older animations and a smaller amount of dedicated new ones; again possible because of their animation mapping software.

 

[Chris1983]

Agreed, the taxonomic and area analysis threads are really interesting to read with regards to this. Since birds are unfortunately unlikely due to the extra effort of creating rigs for turkeys/pelicans etc, I think by far the most lacking group is primates. We would literally need 2 back to back primate packs to bring them to where they belong with regards to both diversity and representation in zoos. And since I've mentioned it I can't help but actually list what I think could go in the packs (3 old world, 3 new world, 1 lemur for each):
Pack 1: Golden Lion Tamarin, Emperor Tamarin, Black Howler Monkey, Gelada, Hanuman Langur, De Brazza's Monkey, Aye-Aye
Pack 2: Common Marmoset, Bolivian Squirrel Monkey, Geoffroy's Spider Monkey, Golden Snub-nosed Monkey, Mantled Guereza, Barbary Macaque, Crowned Lemur

Last year, when we only got 2 DLCs for the first time due to the situation at Frontier I thought about how cool it would be if Frontier would release little bonus packs inbetween which deliever 3 to 4 animals of the same taxonomic group for let's say 5,99 € or so which would only require little changes of the model but could use the same rigs and animations, like a
a) Duck Pack: Mallard, Mandarin, White Whistling, Wood
b) Deer Pack: Marsh Deer, Samba Deer, Pier David's...
c) Penguin Pack: Rockhopper, Humboldt, Gentoo
d) Waterfowl Pack: Canada Goose, Hawaii Goose, Grey, Diepholz
e) Tamarin/Marmoset Pack: Golden Lion, Emperor, Common Marmoset...
f) Goat/Sheep Pack: African Dwarf, Camerun Sheep, Angola
g) Pheasant Pack:....
h) Crane Pack:...

The list could go on and on. Even bear or rhino packs would be possible without causing the discussion if another rhino, bear of fox would take an important spot from the regular DLCs. I would really like such packs, because tbh if we are lucky we will maybe get one more duck species and packs like this would offer the opportunity to feel big gaps at once and of course the opportunity for eveyone to choose, which roster you want to fill up.