DLC20 Discussion (maybe, but why not?)

[Birb（｡･ө･｡）]

I'm sorry, but it's always amusing to me to see people act as if ungulates are somehow underrepresented in comparison to one specific order (carnivorans) when I'm still waiting for the most basic species for an entire clade of incredibly common zoo animals that are repeatedly generalized as if they're just one family. Why are those three orders specifically in some constant roster race like they're the only groups that matter?

Are ungulates a diverse group of mammals? Sure, but there are far broader groups that are comparatively more vastly underrepresented (and even if they're only one order of as opposed to two, I'd argue that primates are far more underrepresented when compared to their real-world zoo-representation). In the grand scheme of things, ungulates are incredibly well shown in this game. I think both they and carnivorans are well off, and I'd be fine if they both took a back seat for a while.

I'd at least appreciate it if we got some variety in our ungulates, as the constant repetition of one family (bovids) is honestly just as bad to me (if not worse) as the constant cat/bear/dog repetition. More relevant to this pack, though, admittedly, South Asia is the only region left where I actually do want bovids for once (besides caprines, please god no more), so maybe that makes me part of the problem, but I'm willing to admit that. Not over a tropical Asian deer, though, which is essentially the only other ungulate niche I still want to see filled (or selfishly a chevrotain just because I really like them, absolute sopping wet blanket of a creature)

Also, Perissodactyla is barely even part of the conversation anymore for me personally, tbh. Another tapir or a domestic horse breed wouldn't be terrible, but with spots more limited than they used to be (assuming we're staying at two packs a year) they aren't anything I'd want taking up valuable pack space (and yes, I feel pretty much the same way about more cats and dogs, but not every pick is going to be for me and I get that those groups are ridiculously popular with general audiences). They'd make for some banger anniversary animals, though.

No shade to anyone who likes ungulates, though (and I hope this is obvious but I'm not targeting anyone in particular), they're a super awesome group. I just think it's okay to admit that you want more of a group simply for the sake of liking it, there's no need to justify a very obviously (and arguably objectively in the grand scheme of the game's roster) well-represented group as somehow being underrepresented just because you want more. Who knows, maybe it'll be my turn to act that way when a sequel has a bajillion parrots and seabirds ( That will totally, definitely happen! Right? right? ;-; )

 

[Bughs]

What's a sea otter?

One of the 'meme' animals due to it's cuteness

 

[Marvinb]

I'm sorry, but it's always amusing to me to see people act as if ungulates are somehow underrepresented in comparison to one specific order (carnivorans) when I'm still waiting for the most basic species for an entire clade of incredibly common zoo animals that are repeatedly generalized as if they're just one family. Why are those three orders specifically in some constant roster race like they're the only groups that matter?

Are ungulates a diverse group of mammals? Sure, but there are far broader groups that are comparatively more vastly underrepresented (and even if they're only one order of as opposed to two, I'd argue that primates are far more underrepresented when compared to their real-world zoo-representation). In the grand scheme of things, ungulates are incredibly well shown in this game. I think both they and carnivorans are well off, and I'd be fine if they both took a back seat for a while.

I'd at least appreciate it if we got some variety in our ungulates, as the constant repetition of one family (bovids) is honestly just as bad to me (if not worse) as the constant cat/bear/dog repetition. More relevant to this pack, though, admittedly, South Asia is the only region left where I actually do want bovids for once (besides caprines, please god no more), so maybe that makes me part of the problem, but I'm willing to admit that. Not over a tropical Asian deer, though, which is essentially the only other ungulate niche I still want to see filled (or selfishly a chevrotain just because I really like them, absolute sopping wet blanket of a creature)

Also, Perissodactyla is barely even part of the conversation anymore for me personally, tbh. Another tapir or a domestic horse breed wouldn't be terrible, but with spots more limited than they used to be (assuming we're staying at two packs a year) they aren't anything I want to pay for (and yes, I feel pretty much the same way about more cats and dogs, but not every pick is going to be for me and I get that those groups are ridiculously popular with general audiences). They'd make for some banger anniversary animals, though.

No shade to anyone who likes ungulates, though (and I hope this is obvious but I'm not targeting anyone in particular), they're a super awesome group. I just think it's okay to admit that you want more of a group simply for the sake of liking it, there's no need to justify a very obviously (and arguably objectively in the grand scheme of the game's roster) well-represented group as somehow being underrepresented just because you want more. Who knows, maybe it'll be my turn to act that way when a sequel has a bajillion parrots and seabirds ( ;-; )

One thing i want to mention is that i actually think that outside of cats, dogs and bears carnivorans actually arent really that well of.

All of the other carnivoran families do only really have one or two representatives to show for themselves if at all. The only expection are mustelids who got 5 counting the honey badger, and considering they are actually the largest family within carnivoran even they could use 1 or 2 more addition, especially miss an arboreal and "weasle/ferret" archetype member here.

 

[SanRazo]

I'm sorry, but it's always amusing to me to see people act as if ungulates are somehow underrepresented in comparison to one specific order (carnivorans) when I'm still waiting for the most basic species for an entire clade of incredibly common zoo animals that are repeatedly generalized as if they're just one family. Why are those three orders specifically in some constant roster race like they're the only groups that matter?

Are ungulates a diverse group of mammals? Sure, but there are far broader groups that are comparatively more vastly underrepresented (and even if they're only one order of as opposed to two, I'd argue that primates are far more underrepresented when compared to their real-world zoo-representation). In the grand scheme of things, ungulates are incredibly well shown in this game. I think both they and carnivorans are well off, and I'd be fine if they both took a back seat for a while.

I'd at least appreciate it if we got some variety in our ungulates, as the constant repetition of one family (bovids) is honestly just as bad to me (if not worse) as the constant cat/bear/dog repetition. More relevant to this pack, though, admittedly, South Asia is the only region left where I actually do want bovids for once (besides caprines, please god no more), so maybe that makes me part of the problem, but I'm willing to admit that. Not over a tropical Asian deer, though, which is essentially the only other ungulate niche I still want to see filled (or selfishly a chevrotain just because I really like them, absolute sopping wet blanket of a creature)

Also, Perissodactyla is barely even part of the conversation anymore for me personally, tbh. Another tapir or a domestic horse breed wouldn't be terrible, but with spots more limited than they used to be (assuming we're staying at two packs a year) they aren't anything I'd want taking up valuable pack space (and yes, I feel pretty much the same way about more cats and dogs, but not every pick is going to be for me and I get that those groups are ridiculously popular with general audiences). They'd make for some banger anniversary animals, though.

No shade to anyone who likes ungulates, though (and I hope this is obvious but I'm not targeting anyone in particular), they're a super awesome group. I just think it's okay to admit that you want more of a group simply for the sake of liking it, there's no need to justify a very obviously (and arguably objectively in the grand scheme of the game's roster) well-represented group as somehow being underrepresented just because you want more. Who knows, maybe it'll be my turn to act that way when a sequel has a bajillion parrots and seabirds ( That will totally, definitely happen! Right? right? ;-; )

That’s what ungulate fans have been saying for years I made a whole thread for this reason. It’s always been about representing ungulates fairly and getting more than just the same style of bovid over and over again. And to show that ungulates are important and over hated when they’re a very crucial and diverse part to any zoo. Of course birds and primates are worse off no one is debating you. But ungulates are diverse and it was sad seeing the same couple groups over and over. Thankfully we have reached progress and that’s great. I’m excited for other groups to have that same turnaround. But I just don’t want my little corner of ungulate defenders to be misrepresented.

 

[AndyZoos]

You can absolutely make some quality packs within the restrictions of taxonomy.

I mean, sure, but I guarantee you these packs would be met with aggressive "clone" criticism, frustration over lack of primates or birds, etc. It also doesn't account for people who are truly just "over" ungulates in the game or who just want to play with "cute" animals they are already familiar with (which, yeah, includes some ungulates -- but it also includes small mammals, felines, canids, etc.)

I'm not even saying that I personally wouldn't like these packs (the Asian Ungulate and Children's Zoo rosters are awesome). But you're ignoring the fact that packs like that would have relatively limited appeal compared to the DLC roster formats they've stuck with for the last 5+ years that provide a mix of species. You would have the same issue with pretty much any pack that was geared toward one specific animal type.

One thing i want to mention is that i actually think that outside of cats, dogs and bears carnivorans actually arent really that well of.

All of the other carnivoran families do only really have one or two representatives to show for themselves if at all. The only expection are mustelids who got 5 counting the honey badger, and considering they are actually the largest family within carnivoran even they could use 1 or 2 more addition, especially miss an arboreal and "weasle/ferret" archetype member here.

You aren't wrong. But I think what this discussion really highlights is that, within the context of reality, there's no way for Frontier to please everybody. With the limits of 4-7 habitat species per DLC with 2-4 DLCs per year, though? I think they've done an exceptional job over the last five years picking species...

There's a handful of species I'd swap out (arctic wolf, black wildebeest, bonobo, dall sheep, coyote, FBB, proboscis, saiga, wisent) but most everything else I'm not sure I could imagine the game without. But 9 species out of however many we have now is honestly a solid hit rate! As a community, we'll always want more... But there is literally always going to be a gap between what people want and what can be (reasonably) implemented in-game.

 

[Dinoceratan]

Do you think an announcement tomorrow or on Wednesday is likely?

 

[Dinoceratan]

You aren't wrong. But I think what this discussion really highlights is that, within the context of reality, there's no way for Frontier to please everybody. With the limits of 4-7 habitat species per DLC with 2-4 DLCs per year, though? I think they've done an exceptional job over the last five years picking species...

There's a handful of species I'd swap out (arctic wolf, black wildebeest, bonobo, dall sheep, coyote, FBB, proboscis, saiga, wisent) but most everything else I'm not sure I could imagine the game without. But 9 species out of however many we have now is honestly a solid hit rate! As a community, we'll always want more... But there is literally always going to be a gap between what people want and what can be (reasonably) implemented in-game.

I agree with you. No company, including Frontier, can please everyone and some would barely accept any species beyond Nasua nasua and Dendrolagus goodfellowi at this point. I would also swap out a few species myself:

• Cuvier's dwarf caiman -> perentie
• Himalayan Brown Bear -> Indian mongoose
• springbok -> blackbuck
• coyote -> mara
• Asian water monitor -> lowland anoa
• proboscis monkey -> fishing cat
• rhea -> (Goodfellow's) tree kangaroo
• gray seal -> sea otter or European/North American otter

 

[Birb（｡･ө･｡）]

That’s what ungulate fans have been saying for years I made a whole thread for this reason. It’s always been about representing ungulates fairly and getting more than just the same style of bovid over and over again. And to show that ungulates are important and over hated when they’re a very crucial and diverse part to any zoo. Of course birds and primates are worse off no one is debating you. But ungulates are diverse and it was sad seeing the same couple groups over and over. Thankfully we have reached progress and that’s great. I’m excited for other groups to have that same turnaround. But I just don’t want my little corner of ungulate defenders to be misrepresented.

I can totally get behind that and I respect it, but genuinely curious, what groups do you think still need more diversity besides deer, domestics, and maybe a third tapir? I think suids, giraffids, rhinos, bovids, camelids, and equids are all very well off in the grand scheme of things, and I think people are pretty justified not wanting any more. Maybe a musk deer and a chevrotain for the sake of representing two new families, but at that point, I feel like we're grasping at straws and adding for adding's sake when talking about zoo importance, considering how niche they are (and that's coming from someone who adores chevrotains lol).
Minus an Asian deer or two and a couple bovids from Asia (and again, maybe a third tapir), I just don't think there are many non-domestic major zoo-relevant species missing, some that would make decent additions, sure, but none that I would call essential.

Again, I do think bovids are overrepresented in DLC, but we've also gotten three camelids, two rhinos, two deer (plus one in an update), four suids (five if going by niche rather than taxonomy and including the peccary) and three equids. I'd say that's still a pretty fair amount of non-bovid ungulates and certainly far more than a lot of other families have gotten, but that's sorta besides the point. The main reason I bring up birds and primates are because spots in DLCs are limited - and on top of that, DLCs are limited - whether we like it or not, and I'd rather see them go to the groups that need it.

 

[AndyZoos]

Do you think an announcement tomorrow or on Wednesday is likely?

I'm done trying to guess the day. But I'll be shocked if we don't hear something this week. Of course, everybody mostly felt that same way last week soooo...

I agree with you. No company, including Frontier, can please everyone and some would barely accept any species beyond Nasua nasua and Dendrolagus goodfellowi at this point.

For sure. But I also think it's very healthy for people to put forward their ideas/wishes or whatever. Just gotta accept, though, that there's always going to be something missing and that certain pack rosters, release schedules, new features, and so on are very very unlikely to happen for the current PZ.

 

[Frogstrich]

The Only Taxonomy Pack I Could See Happening Is A Reptile Pack Of Some Kind. Probably With 6 Habitat Animals, 1 Exhibit Animal And Some Kind Of Fake Jungle Set. Also I Think That A Large Python Should Work Fine As A Habitat Animal.

 

[DarthQuell]

I'm done trying to guess the day. But I'll be shocked if we don't hear something this week. Of course, everybody mostly felt that same way last week soooo...

I'm shooting for tomorrow

 

[SanRazo]

I can totally get behind that and I respect it, but genuinely curious, what groups do you think still need more diversity besides deer, domestics, and maybe a third tapir? I think suids, giraffids, rhinos, bovids, camelids, and equuids are all very well off in the grand scheme of things, and I think people are pretty justified not wanting any more. Maybe a musk deer and a chevrotain for the sake of representing two new families, but at that point, I feel like we're grasping at straws and adding for adding's sake when talking about zoo importance, considering how niche they are (and that's coming from someone who adores chevrotains lol).
Minus an Asian deer or two and a couple bovids from Asia (and again, maybe a third tapir), I just don't think there are many non-domestic major zoo-relevant species missing, some that would make decent additions, sure, but none that I would call essential.

Again, I do think bovids are overrepresented in DLC, but we've also gotten three camelids, two rhinos, two deer (plus one in an update), four suids (five if going by niche rather than taxonomy and including the peccary) and three equids. I'd say that's still a pretty fair amount of non-bovid ungulates and certainly far more than a lot of other families have gotten, but that's sorta besides the point. The main reason I bring up birds and primates are because spots in DLCs are limited - and on top of that, DLCs are limited - whether we like it or not, and I'd rather see them go to the groups that need it.

The groups you mentioned are the major ones tbh. But we wouldn’t have gotten here where we are if we didn’t advocate for the other types of ungulates.

I would also not downplay how important regions are. With this hopeful Indian pack out the way some south Asian ungulates would go a long way to make amazing Indian Savannah habitats. Also we have no “normal” American deer, little things like that are also needed. Also unique animals like the gerenuk would be amazing. Again is it more valuable than other groups?… no of course not, but that was never the argument, the argument was always comparing them to carnivorans in a traditional zoo roster where the carnivoran to ungulate ratio would be vastly more skewed to ungulates

 

[Dinoceratan]

Of course, everybody mostly felt that same way last week soooo...

Ah, okay, so it was not just me who thought an announcement was likely last Tuesday.

For sure. But I also think it's very healthy for people to put forward their ideas/wishes or whatever. Just gotta accept, though, that there's always going to be something missing and that certain pack rosters, release schedules, new features, and so on are very very unlikely to happen for the current PZ.

What "release schedules" are you referring to? I gave up on flying birds or fully aquatic species after the Lorikeet Affair, so I am not expecting revolutionary changes.

 

[Frogstrich]

I can totally get behind that and I respect it, but genuinely curious, what groups do you think still need more diversity besides deer, domestics, and maybe a third tapir? I think suids, giraffids, rhinos, bovids, camelids, and equuids are all very well off in the grand scheme of things, and I think people are pretty justified not wanting any more. Maybe a musk deer and a chevrotain for the sake of representing two new families, but at that point, I feel like we're grasping at straws and adding for adding's sake when talking about zoo importance, considering how niche they are (and that's coming from someone who adores chevrotains lol).
Minus an Asian deer or two and a couple bovids from Asia (and again, maybe a third tapir), I just don't think there are many non-domestic major zoo-relevant species missing, some that would make decent additions, sure, but none that I would call essential.

Again, I do think bovids are overrepresented in DLC, but we've also gotten three camelids, two rhinos, two deer (plus one in an update), four suids (five if going by niche rather than taxonomy and including the peccary) and three equids. I'd say that's still a pretty fair amount of non-bovid ungulates and certainly far more than a lot of other families have gotten, but that's sorta besides the point. The main reason I bring up birds and primates are because spots in DLCs are limited - and on top of that, DLCs are limited - whether we like it or not, and I'd rather see them go to the groups that need it.

Given The Fact We Have A Feeder And Food Enrichment Exclusive To The Giraffe, I Wouldn't Getting Another Giraffe. Unless The Elephants Get Access To Them.

 

[Birb（｡･ө･｡）]

The groups you mentioned are the major ones tbh. But we wouldn’t have gotten here where we are if we didn’t advocate for the other types of ungulates.

I would also not downplay how important regions are. With this hopeful Indian pack out the way some south Asian ungulates would go a long way to make amazing Indian Savannah habitats. Also we have no “normal” American deer, little things like that are also needed. Also unique animals like the gerenuk would be amazing. Again is it more valuable than other groups?… no of course not, but that was never the argument, the argument was always comparing them to carnivorans in a tradition zoo roster where the carnivoran to ungulate ratio would be vastly more skewed to ungulates

I mean yeah, sure, stuff like a "normal" American deer and a gerenuk could be neat (less so on the gerenuk for me personally, it's niche has been filled many times over at this point and it looking unique isn't enough for me, there are so many animals that look unique but also add more than just that), but they're so far down on my list of priorities that they might as well not matter to me at that point - which was part of my original point/argument, maybe I should have clarified that more, but I assumed that was part of what you were referring to since you quoted my post, maybe that's my bad. My main argument was why are we so focused on comparing carnivorans and ungulates in the first place, but secondarily was that doing so ignores the other groups that need that representation so badly. Discussing other groups is very much relevant when my main point was questioning why we were focusing so much on these two specifically. Carnivorans are overrepresented (or as Marvin mentioned earlier, at least cats/dogs/bears are) but why not leave it at that (and/or learn from it for a sequel)? Why is there some need for ungulates to play "catch up" and then take up a bunch of roster spots that could be used for other things? If your argument (which again, I think there might be a misunderstanding there) is purely that that one, very specific, niche ratio is imbalanced, then sure, I totally agree - I just don't think it really matters when ungulates are still well represented regardless. I was only voicing that, again, I don't think it matters much in the grand scheme of things (which includes so many other groups of animals), and we might just have to agree to disagree there.

I agree on the Indian savanna being underrepresented, though, I feel like I've been pretty vocal on south Asia being the one place I still want a variety of ungulates from lol.

 

[Mr-Hyrax 2]

You can absolutely make some quality packs within the restrictions of taxonomy.

Honestly, I do agree, obviously an African Ungulate pack would be incredibly unnecary and annoying, but it can still work

The Only Taxonomy Pack I Could See Happening Is A Reptile Pack Of Some Kind. Probably With 6 Habitat Animals, 1 Exhibit Animal And Some Kind Of Fake Jungle Set. Also I Think That A Large Python Should Work Fine As A Habitat Animal.View attachment 432259

have to somewhat disagree, I can genuinely see a bird pack, is it unlikely, yes, but it has had a better chance then ever before, with the swan and chicken rig you can easily make a pack like modern ones with popular and fun animals that frointer could actually do, the only thing is the fact we already got all ratties and more then enough flamingos, but I mean something like this could actually happen.

Great White Pelican
Golden Pheasant
Grey Crowned Crane
White-Faced Whistleing Duck
Black Swan
Green Peafowl
Eastern Wild Turkey

 

[Frogstrich]

have to somewhat disagree, I can genuinely see a bird pack, is it unlikely, yes, but it has had a better chance then ever before, with the swan and chicken rig you can easily make a pack like modern ones with popular and fun animals that frointer could actually do, the only thing is the fact we already got all ratties and more then enough flamingos, but I mean something like this could actually happen.

Great White Pelican
Golden Pheasant
Grey Crowned Crane
White-Faced Whistleing Duck
Black Swan
Green Peafowl
Eastern Wild Turkey

Kind Of Forgot An Aviary/Bird Pack To Be Honest.

 

[Mjmannella]

you're ignoring the fact that packs like that would have relatively limited appeal compared to the DLC roster formats they've stuck with for the last 5+ years that provide a mix of species. You would have the same issue with pretty much any pack that was geared toward one specific animal type.

Then the problem is the format itself. If it was changed, we wouldn't be in this rut

Do you think an announcement tomorrow or on Wednesday is likely?

Could be tomorrow, could be next week. We won't know until it happens

 

[yoav_r]

The Only Taxonomy Pack I Could See Happening Is A Reptile Pack Of Some Kind. Probably With 6 Habitat Animals, 1 Exhibit Animal And Some Kind Of Fake Jungle Set. Also I Think That A Large Python Should Work Fine As A Habitat Animal.View attachment 432259

If I did a reptile pack I'd pick:

1. Nile crocodile
2. Perentie
3. Argentinian tegu
4. Alligator snapping turtle
5. Chinese softshell turtle
6. Reticulated python
7. Tuatara (Exhibit)
8. Panther chameleon (exhibit)
9. Emerald tree boa (Exhibit)

This covers almost all continents (sorry europe) and trades a habitat animal for two exhibits

 

[ChicoGenialoso1]

If I did a reptile pack I'd pick:

1. Nile crocodile
2. Perentie
3. Argentinian tegu
4. Alligator snapping turtle
5. Chinese softshell turtle
6. Reticulated python
7. Tuatara (Exhibit)
8. Panther chameleon (exhibit)
9. Emerald tree boa (Exhibit)

This covers almost all continents (sorry europe) and trades a habitat animal for two exhibits

I have a question, How would they animate the snapping turtle? As far as I can remember, it rarely moves (it would just be in the water 24/7, and would only open its mouth to catch its prey)