Do you want Planet Type DLC
- Thread starter Cosmo
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The Moray Starboat from 1984-Elite would come to its right (and hopefully be implemented!) when/if waterworlds become landable. Half spaceship, half submarine.I look forward to "Warning: Landing gear deployed" when we try to land on a water world and forget that we're supposed to keep the hull sealed
Ammonia worlds could be ocean worlds the same as water-worlds (different fluid) maybe more cloud / less atmospheric visibility, so that would allow two new world types from one new "ocean" technology
This in turn opens up the possibility of a new amphibious SRV type, if floating biomass offers mats, or if they offer exobiology then a convertible-top or open-top boat/jetski vehicle would be needed
Landing, walking and interacting on foot with these worlds? Sure, seems logical we would be able to. An entire DLC surrounding just this? Not sure, perhaps.
Creating all that is, in my opinion, an insane level of difficulty to develop. As Eis as scientific as possible simulation of a galaxy, there are a lot deeper and more complex logic to procedurally spread out assets than for example NMS. Even right now, after years of Odyssey - there are still severe bugs with planetary tech. Now imagine the level of complexity to simulate water, lakes, rivers, oceans, clouds, rain, lava, magma, storms, erosion, forests, fauna... you could also add a big game hunting many are talking about to that while we're at it, hehe.
Now we have basic planet types with tenuous atmospheres. The weather, water, lava etc could be gradually added via multiple planet type DLC. ED has a 1:1 scale Milky Way, but the tech likely won't be much more advanced than NMS. It should look more realistic though and maybe it's based more on scientific principles.
Well the gameplay could be new colonization facilities, mining, exobiology, hunt prey, farming.
I doubt new, big expansions are in the pipeline due to Odyssey. Maybe a season of DLC with an optional season pass. I could be wrong though.
I'm quite surprised that we're getting colonization for free, although most of the assets are recycled from Horizons and Odyssey. They have to monetize future updates so I think new planet types won't be free updates.
If you have high expectations then it would take years and years. However, it's been a decade since they added landable barren worlds. ED still doesn't have good anti-aliasing nor global illumination. It seems like they're struggling to add sophisticated procedural tech to generate lush planets. If we get basic ELW in a short time (1-2 years), that's better than zero ELWs.
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I think there's something to this. When I have a choice between a station and a surface settlement, I tend to pick the station because it lacks the descent through the atmosphere which while excellently implemented, takes time while the station doesn't. I get more out of the descent when I have to study the area I'm heading towards to make some decisions about optimal [whatever], but right now that doesn't happen often. Even when hunting for life-forms there's not a lot of looking for clues during descent.
I suspect that it could flesh out nicely over time as more (and more complex) systems are built into the game so one part of the surface is not quite so interchangeable with any other, much as how other parts of the game that first felt empty no-longer do. But it's a long-term project
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They could (and arguably should) do this right now with Stellar Forge, which is already incredible and fascinating. I've seen some videos but they're pretty surface level.
Hey FDev: your own devs (and Braben) would love to own a gorgeous coffee-table art book about their achievement that is Stellar Forge. Do it as a company bonus, for moral, keep a few studio-signed copies to use as prize giveaways, ...then let us filthy masses buy up the rest of the print run
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I just don't see how lava could warrant a paid DLC, or any one planet titbit.
On top of that, adding DLC with lava, then with Wind, then with Clouds, then finally with Storm - nope, that would be a slow financial suicide. Imagine the outrage if players would need to pay extra to have a wind or Lava on a planet, haha. And then what happens if they didn't - player who paid sees lava, player who didn't doesn't see it in the same spot?
It has to be a full package at least per planet type, or with minimum - added effects with planets they can be used on in their initial basic state.
That is exactly why it is more advanced than NMS. NMS puts assets with a principle "Will it look cool like that". Elite planetary tech makes everything work as close to make scientific sense as possible. The difference is closer to - paint an apple and create an ecosystem to plant/grow a tree to grow an apple.
Any gameplay requires developing assets, mechanics, systems, on top of planetary tech. That is how bit by bit you compound towards a very complex development. And one (planetary tech) won't be worth much for majority of players without the other (gameplay).
They could be, up to a point, if Colonisation is a successful feature and brings money. Any complex planet type for free is most definitely out of the question. But current landable types, expanded to other atmospheric effects and maybe some extra ground effects, could happen.
I don't think there is such a thing as "basic ELW". But even then, that's an investment of 1-2 years, to create something basic, that has a huge potential to be a flop simply because it would be basic and have a very high risk of much more problems than the whole of Odyssey had.
Right now, quite often it looks like they struggle with planets we currently have to work properly. It doesn't look like they even started to struggle with lush planets.
I doubt that too. That's why after discussions in Interiors thread, I think incremental development with Early Access + Cosmetics is the best approach, as it removes the need for huge investments upfront and allows to add things gradually.
For the exact same reasons, I don't see planetary DLC as something realistic - it would require quite a significant investments upfront on something that could go very wrong (as Odyssey have shown).
Colonisation has a realistic chance to pave the way with initial improvements to planetary tech that could lead to a more complex atmospheric and ground effects, maybe Gas Giants. Again, if it is successful and brings money.
After that tho, that is where I don't see a possibility of incremental development, as it is either a Water World, or how can it be without landing on water and going under water? I'm certain that the first thing that 9 or 10 players would do on their first landing on WW is - "Nose dive, submarine, here I come" - for that not only atmospheric flight systems need to be developed/improved, but also - swimming doesn't exist in the game at all, effects of various liquids on ships/hulls/suits/pressure/etc. And that is a small drop of what is needed, as there is also flora and fauna under water too, and the same old question of gameplay.
Even if one would go for that in some limited functionality version - Elite still simulates the Galaxy, so number of eligible worlds for that limited set of options won't be that big, and it could become something like - "sell a DLC for basic Water Worlds, there are about 10000 of them in 400 Bil systems, good luck locating that new game".
And if there are separate DLCs for each feature on planets - how would you cut a Water World in separate DLCs? You can fly above the water but can't land? Wouldn't work. You can land but you can swim, and the next DLC "Commanders learn how to swim!"? hehe.
ELW - another level or few on top in difficulty and details.
So yeah. Colonisation and basic systems for more complex planets, starting with current available types but with thicker atmosphere and some basic weather/ground effects. Then maybe, if and when there are enough money - complex planets as DLCs with years to develop.
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I don't think we are asking for SC level of details, but maybe a hybrid between SC atmo flight and landing ( REAL atmo, not the fake "tenuous" non sense) and no man sky procedural generation.
honestly, given this is a monumental technical challenge, I don't think we will ever get that. This is a pipe dream.
A lot of people have headcanon that the game Subnautica takes place in Elite; you crash on a random waterworld and need to find a way to get back to space/civilization. It even supports VR!
That sort of approach might be our best bet for the foreseeable future, because as you say, doing a comprehensive world DLC would be an entire game productions in its own right.
Are there any other games that sort of feel like they can fit into Elite and offer the ground experience? I suppose Planet Crafter is the dry-land version of Subnautica; after one crime too many the local corporation tires of you, arrests and maroons you on a terraforming-candidate planet with some equipment to either build a biosphere to work off your sentence or die trying.
Hmm, like FDev they're all independent studios, maybe it should be more common for studios to enter into cross-marketing agreements; they each tweak a bit of their game background so they can be in the same universe as each other (or even lead into each other) then both games are connected and both studios will likely gain some new players off the other game. Everyone wins!
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Well those games are proof that it is possible. Hello Games' staff is only 68 people yet they implemented so many biomes, flora and fauna. It won't be Microsoft Flight Simulator in space realism, rather something in between as you said.
Planet type DLC can be done. A super realistic version would require too much development though. More likely is a semi-realistic hybrid. For example water worlds need: clouds, thick atmosphere, water surface (oceans), populate it with a bunch of flora and fauna deep underwater. There could be floating settlements, a new submersible vehicle and swimsuit.
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One approach to generate and expand an 'atmospheric planets' paid DLC could be to first build the basic physics and graphics model for liquids/gases and give access to barren planets which have thicker atmospheres to expand existing gameplay (basic lifeforms, settlements) and add a couple of interesting hazards (magma, acid rain, storms). I'd make the DLC completely optional so that players who aren't interested just can't land on these worlds.
In a second step (if the DLC is successful), add a terraforming mechanics to the DLC: Players have to bring the terraforming equipment and launch the process. Make the planets look like LV-426 (Aliens movie) during the process which may take 2-3 years in real time. That time could be used by FDev to develop the game to support more complex ecosystems.
Third step would be to add non-terraformed ELWs, complex fauna and flora.
In parallel, gameplay can be developed according to the stages where the terraforming attempts are. From small settlements to larger spaceports and colonies.
In a second step (if the DLC is successful), add a terraforming mechanics to the DLC: Players have to bring the terraforming equipment and launch the process. Make the planets look like LV-426 (Aliens movie) during the process which may take 2-3 years in real time. That time could be used by FDev to develop the game to support more complex ecosystems.
Third step would be to add non-terraformed ELWs, complex fauna and flora.
In parallel, gameplay can be developed according to the stages where the terraforming attempts are. From small settlements to larger spaceports and colonies.
Interesting that you mention Subnautica, I've wondered how Frontier would actually make Water Worlds work tbh, this video was kinda interesting and relates to the potential proces, though this is more of a simulation than what I think could be done ingame:
Suffice to say, I'm not sure it's going to be easy! But I was very impressed with Subnautica and for sure thought about Elite while playing it, too.
I am not sure what they were counted as or even if they are still in game, but there used to be black rocky planets with massive volcanic lava patches of red and orange, like seas, spotted over the cooling (presumably newly formed) rocky planet.
Always imagined driving round the edges of those massive lava lakes/seas.
Oh and the Christmas Pudding planets - the brown ones with an ice cap usually only on one side of the planet due to the inclination/position of the planet. Again, imagined driving over the glaciers of those, boosting, then landing hundreds of meters below onto the rocky planes.
And of course I was certain when the game came out that within 10 years we'd be landing on earth-likes. Wishful thinking, it turns out. There are other games that can cater for that now though.
Oh: And to answer the question - yes, I'd love planetary type DLC. However ED has become a game I do not expect to get what I want. There are other threads covering what FD wanted to implement and what players wanted, let's keep on topic
Always imagined driving round the edges of those massive lava lakes/seas.
Oh and the Christmas Pudding planets - the brown ones with an ice cap usually only on one side of the planet due to the inclination/position of the planet. Again, imagined driving over the glaciers of those, boosting, then landing hundreds of meters below onto the rocky planes.
And of course I was certain when the game came out that within 10 years we'd be landing on earth-likes. Wishful thinking, it turns out. There are other games that can cater for that now though.
Oh: And to answer the question - yes, I'd love planetary type DLC. However ED has become a game I do not expect to get what I want. There are other threads covering what FD wanted to implement and what players wanted, let's keep on topic
At the end of the day, EDB ('Elite Dangerous Planets'
) would need to have such kind of simulation engine. It would not need the deepest physical depth and only needs to be active when somebody enters the system/looks at the planet but that will be demanding enough to build and run the simulation.Still dreaming of my commander carrying a deck chair down the ship's ramp and enjoying a green sunset over a turquois ocean.
Horizons created a huge problem for FDev because it meant they couldn't fully implement gameplay involving planetary surfaces because not everybody had access to them.
We couldn't have, for example, CGs or narrative content involving planetary surface activities because not everybody had access to them.
This issue was only resolved when Odyssey was released and Horizons was (inevitably) bundled with the base-game.
It'd be a shame if FDev made the effort to develop anything substantial related to planetary surfaces and then, once again, created a situation where it couldn't be fully integrated into gameplay because it was a paid DLC that not everybody owned.
Honestly, I'm not sure how they might go about it.
FDev can't be expected to develop major new features and just bung them into the existing game for free but, OTOH, no feature that's developed in isolation is ever going to be fully integrated into the game because that gameplay won't be available to people who haven't bought the DLC.
I suspect that, if the game survives long enough, any major changes to the entire galaxy will become the next version of "the game" and Odyssey will become legacy, as the Horizons galaxy now is.
I don't see a problem. For example, a narrative event happens on a Water World. Participation requires the Water World DLC. If some players don't have it that encourages them to buy the DLC / planet access pass.
Yes after a few years it could be included with the base game.
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Frontier want to make Elite Dangerous earn money, and TBH they could.
If they released DLC that upgraded the game, opened new mechanics and unlocked areas of the galaxy which right now are unavailable.
Then yes, i would pay for it.
A DLC that opened up more world types for players to land upon most definately.
But this DLC would need to work well upon release, im not going through another Odyssey fiasco again.
(waits for Frontier to lock Colonisation behind a DLC paywall).
If they released DLC that upgraded the game, opened new mechanics and unlocked areas of the galaxy which right now are unavailable.
Then yes, i would pay for it.
A DLC that opened up more world types for players to land upon most definately.
But this DLC would need to work well upon release, im not going through another Odyssey fiasco again.
(waits for Frontier to lock Colonisation behind a DLC paywall).
You might not see a problem but you can bet that the forums and social media would be full of people who do see a problem if FDev started creating, say, CGs that involved optional DLC or PP2 things that required it.
Most importantly, FDev clearly see a problem, which is why, in the past, they rarely created any Horizons-specifc content until Horizons was integrated into the base-game.
It's a shame really because I'm sure we could all think up all sorts of various activities related to our favorite wish-list features.
Personally, ever since I've played ED, I've always wanted to be able to do stuff related to Gas Giants.
I think it'd be great if there were missions that required you to build ships with heaps of HRPs so you could dive into the atmosphere of a Gas Giant, either to deliver cargo to a station or collect salvage from a crippled ship etc.
Historically, though, it seems like FDev have tried to create core-gameplay that's available to all players and then create "secondary" gameplay that's specific to DLCs.
Basically, I think they try to avoid the situation where a player thinks they might be able to do something and then discovers that they can't because they don't have the required DLC.
Interestingly, I have recently noticed that it's possible to take missions (from a mission-board and not from characters on a concourse) that require the player to visit Odyssey surface-outposts.
Since I own Odyssey, I can only assume the Odyssey surface-bases are accessible to non-Ody players as well and, presumably, they can complete those missions from the mission-board at those outposts even though they can't get out of their ships and visit the outpost.
