Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[B1rdy]

Oddly I wouldn’t like that. It would feel too cheap and gamy.

Are you sure that is so substantially different than the method we have now? What is so wrong with a "take me to max GX" button?

I know you didn't ask me but I enjoy the process but the result I think hurts the game.

But I like your reasoning anyway. May I ask why do you like searching for mats in HGEs? Why do you like acquiring DWEs?

indeed i do think the problem with those saying "too much grind" is they are attempting to do something to their entire fleet in under 100 hrs something which was really meant to take many multiples of that over the life of the game.

the only time a meta uber engineered ship is needed is for pvp and the simple fact is the game is not created around that... but even then ONE PvP ship does not take that long to create.

Would you consider both a good or rather bad game design?

mind you as i have said before and others have here too, engineers has completely messed up the balance in the game for everyone. Remember the time when ships like the vulture needed a bit of thought about how to spec out because you just couldnt A rate it?.

It was good. But Engineers didn't take that away, they shifted it.

Unfortunately the people with the god ships cried "The game is too easy!" and now more and more NPCs are being given god ships of their own...

But that is a problem of the game's design, not of the people playing it.

If ED continues down this road, basically forcing me to build "god ships", that's when I'll walk away from combat and play the game exclusively for exploration.

We are not at that point. But if I look at past 20 years of playing video games, I find most games have been exactly like that. You would get better equipment to fight stronger enemies.
Wouldn't it be bland, if you could master everything in ED with your E-rated Sidewinder?

 

[Rafe Zetter]

[snip]
We are not at that point. But if I look at past 20 years of playing video games, I find most games have been exactly like that. You would get better equipment to fight stronger enemies.
Wouldn't it be bland, if you could master everything in ED with your E-rated Sidewinder?

Except the god ship's aren't for the NPC's are they?

Thargoids don't need them either.

So WHO are they for exactly?

Correct - the PvP community - at which point it got borked because they had 10 second kill ships, that even a superskilled, FA off pilot had no chance against.

It was (is) the very worst example of power creep I've ever seen in a game, in the same 20 years you mention, where power creep (get better gear, to kill to get better gear) was part of the increased difficulty by design.

There's no bosses / super bosses / uber bosses / uber super duper bosses in ED, are there? No. So why give players engineered modules that have such power that 10 second kills are possible, coz there's no-one else out there to use them on, not even Thargoids as by design your supposed to be using AX weapons.

So your argument is based on a situation that DID NOT EXIST in ED when engineers was introduced, and whatever squadrons brings it'll be designed primarily with wings and multiple lower rated ships in mind, so those with god ships prolly could solo that content, but that's more of a circumvention rather than "as intended".

 

[Stigbob]

That's okay Bob. I won't expect of you to face the reality that Frontier doesn't consider this exploiting/cheating. That they themselves facilitated this for players. I can trust you're not using EDDB/Inara/Coriolis/Shipyard or any other third party tool as well? Since that would be cheating in your book. As in gaining an unfair advantage. You do realize that just by playing the game this whole time you could have taken advantage of changes triggered in the BGS by whom you call cheaters? So how is that explained in Bob's bible? And how are you making sure this won't happen? How do you fully isolate yourself of us cheaters? Do you have your own private galaxy in the game? Or is this that falls under the section that says "ignorance is bliss" in your bible?

I get that you are super salty about how you've chosen to play the game, but that doesn't bother me at all as I only do fun things and therefore enjoy myself.

 

[Stressfest]

Like a night at the Blue Oyster Bar sans lube..

 

[Parmo]

To answer the OP's question I'll have to role a couple of dozen dice. It's taken sometime just to gather these grade 5 letters written here.
Forgive my non-engineered response; my keyboard is only D rated.

 

[D3rv1sh]

I get that you are super salty about how you've chosen to play the game, but that doesn't bother me at all as I only do fun things and therefore enjoy myself.

Well I already know that 'getting' things is not an easy task for you. So I'll take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Stigbob]

Well I already know that 'getting' things is not an easy task for you. So I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Why not, you obviously have a massive amount of it to spare.

 

[777Driver]

Why not, you obviously have a massive amount of it to spare.

He has mountains of it Quite funny reading all this whilst having my morning coffee.

 

[Jukelo]

Adversarial stance? Are you for real?

Without the third party tools ED would already be a dead game - can you honestly imagine trying to do any reasonable amount of engineering (of EITHER version) without them?

Deus above - you'd have the aggressive player factions like SDC just RULING open, because they would have eventally figured out the best upgrades and how to get them (just as they did), but then crucially NOT TELLING ANYONE ELSE.

Open would be even less of an option for casuals than it already was.

Add in NPC'S with the right engineering mods, because FDev would design them that way (because FDev did exactly that), instead of giving them randomly generated good AND bad ones, and solo and PG group play ALSO becomes a nightmare for the casuals when they meet a well engineered ship in their "random parts" engineered ship and get rebuy after rebuy.

As I said before FDev SHOULD BE PAYING THESE THIRD PARTY TOOL SUPPLIERS - for keeping their game remotely playable.

No-one and I mean NO-ONE can argue against that point and be honest with themselves or the players.

If the Elite franchise is no longer something the playerbase wants and instead players are relying on external tools and playing the game in a way it wasn't intended just to have fun, why shouldn't Elite Dangerous die? If as you say nobody is interested in the Vision anymore, then Frontier should kill the game.

Well I already know that 'getting' things is not an easy task for you. So I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Stigbob is quite obviously getting the only thing that matters: a lot of fun.

 

[B1rdy]

Well I already know that 'getting' things is not an easy task for you. So I'll take this with a grain of salt.

Just don't waste your time. Most times he tries to derail critical threads by making people discuss about him, not the topic.

 

[D3rv1sh]

Just don't waste your time. Most times he tries to derail critical threads by making people discuss about him, not the topic.

Well considering what I've seen so far he desperately feels the need to preach his gospel. But you're right, I shouldn't waste anymore time on him. It would be best to ignore him.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

Just don't waste your time. Most times he tries to derail critical threads by making people discuss about him, not the topic.

It's known as "Stigbob Law" sounding the death knoll of the thread.

 

[Stigbob]

Just don't waste your time. Most times he tries to derail critical threads by making people discuss about him, not the topic.

How is telling people I enjoy engineering in the "do you like engineering" thread a derail, and why do you assume it has to be a critical thread ?.

Well considering what I've seen so far he desperately feels the need to preach his gospel. But you're right, I shouldn't waste anymore time on him. It would be best to ignore him.

Do whatever you like with the menu in game or out, doesn't bother me in the slightest.

It's known as "Stigbob Law" sounding the death knoll of the thread.

As I explained to some random just before he got infracted yesterday the thing that kills threads is the salty people who can't do anyhting other than get personal.

I'm absolutely fine with you having different opinions to me. This is a forum it's to be expected.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

As much as I don't want to, in the truest spirit, I've got agree with Bob (No offense Bob, I just don't like to agree with people. Out of principle.). His approach is objectively better. Sure, you want to min/max your Engineering efficiency. Great, each to there own. The simple fact is, engineering in ED (pre3.0 & post3.0) was quite evidently not designed to either encourage or accomodate this approach while maintaining a healthy level of sanity. While that obviously does not sit well with some people, that is the way ED engineering (and other aspects of ED) was conceived, designed and implemented. Twice. Over a period of years.

The same can be said of other aspects of ED - ranks, ship progression, Guardian technology, managing the BGS, manipulating Power Play - everything worth doing right requires a significant investment of playing time and focused effort. That's just what ED is. So, the best approach to a game like this is to engage with the different aspects of the game in whatever way best maximises your fun. Because that's what games are for - killing time, relaxing, having fun. It sounds like Bob's approach is fun for Bob, but your approach is not fun for you. Sound's like Bob's approach is better. Not better than mine though, mine's better than Bob's.

It's not that stigbobs approach is inherently BETTER (it's not true, don't buy his snake oil) - as I've said elsewhere it just parallels how FDev designed the system to work, because they took no time to consider that there would be players with limited time, who rather than take weeks to fully engineer their most used ship - based on a few hours play per week in normal play conditions, decided to bite the bullet and just GRIND IT OUT and get it over with.

And that's when the massive timesink became apparent, alongside requiring players to do things outside of thier normal playstyle - because FDev assumed every player would do EVERYTHING within thier designed game, and get the mats organically as part of that.

Unfortunately for FDev - that assumption led to the same consequences all assumptions do - a steaming pile of doo-doo.

So here we are, again, talking about engineering with the same divisive results, because FDev only took ONE playstyle (thier own) into account in the design phase.

In a game where the phrase "blaze your own trail" is part of the advertising slogan for the game, and INDIVIDUALITY OF PLAYSTYLE was supposed to be the sole reason why there's no bloody storyline.

You couldn't make it up it's so farcicle.

 

[Stealthie]

I'm certain FDev assumed MOST players would take MONTHS to slowly upgrade thier modules as and when they found mats, while doing other stuff - instead it was and still is, quite the reverse.

This is what I've always thought too.

It makes absolutely NO sense, though, and raises the (infamous) question of whether they actually play their own game.

Half the time a ship won't even fly until the engineering is complete.
Take any ship with a fair complement of lasers, for example, remove the G5 Efficient mod's and you'll probably find there's no longer enough sufficient power for the Thrusters and Shield.

Part of FDev's staff-training (for those involved in making gameplay decisions, at least) should involve requiring everybody to build (and engineer) a Vulture which can successfully complete an Elite Assassination mission before they're allowed anywhere near the live-build of the game.

 

[da_wae]

This is what I've always thought too.

It makes absolutely NO sense, though, and raises the (infamous) question of whether they actually play their own game.

Half the time a ship won't even fly until the engineering is complete.
Take any ship with a fair complement of lasers, for example, remove the G5 Efficient mod's and you'll probably find there's no longer enough sufficient power for the Thrusters and Shield.

Part of FDev's staff-training (for those involved in making gameplay decisions, at least) should involve requiring everybody to build (and engineer) a Vulture which can successfully complete an Elite Assassination mission before they're allowed anywhere near the live-build of the game.

Yea, they should also probably start applying statistical analysis to see how their players actually interact with the systems they build under "Real conditions".

Their "lab assumptions" have been so out of wack with reality, it's not even funny.

 

[Shaamaan]

It's a mixed bag, for me. The idea of engineers is great - it's that extra layer of tinkering that's made possible, beyond what the various module classes offer. But then it becomes mandatory in certain situations, like PvE combat or PvP (disclaimer: I only partake in the former). It being mandatory is also a bit of a Richard-move by the devs, as it forces new players to buy Horizons...

As for the process itself, there are some "neutral" aspects to it, and some "who the hell thought this would be a good idea?!" aspects, so a net loss on the whole (disregarding the fact that engineered ships are lots of fun to fly in).

The neutral aspects are basically the process of gathering certain mats, like if I'm going to go exploring a planet, I'll get engineering mats in the process anyway. Combat-based mats are a mixed bag, as this effectively forces me to stop combat and wait for the collector limpets to do their thing, but there's a certain satisfaction to see an NPC Anaconda blow up like a piñata, spilling candy all around.

The negative aspects... ohhh boy. Certain mats are annoying to get a hold of, unlocking some engineers is down right abysmal (not only is it based around the most lazy of quests: the fetch quest, but also has you repeat the fetch quest multiple times), the fact that you need to fly to the engineer with every module you want to mod (sure, there's pinned engineering mods, but if you like variety, those won't always work... and then there are the experimental effects) which is a huge waste of time. Plus the engineers are always planet-side, which increases the travel times to AND occasionally from them.

Overall the system is a lot better than it used to be (no RNG in modifications is a HUGE step in the right direction while the material-traders are a helping band-aid), but it's still pretty bad.

Ideally I'd like to see engineers more as blueprint sellers rather than what they are now. Have missions to unlock the engineers themselves, then have them sell you blueprints for a cost in materials (in tiers, i.e. grade 1 FSD range mod, then grade 2 FSD mod, etc...), and then you should be able to apply that effect for a fixed price in any station that has an "engineering station" or something; i.e. more like the tech-brokers. Admittedly, at that point, we'd need a different "material-sink", as then we wouldn't have anything to do with our mats once all the engineer blueprints are unlocked...

 

[avow555]

FDEV don't ban cheats (5-1 engineering/cloggers/take your pick), they never have. Why would you expect them to ban people for a fairly minor exploit in a game thats always had exploits ?.

I just opt out of doing it myself and don't worry about it.

So it was an exploit which they did nothing about until now?
Doesn't sound like fdev at all.
They usually nerf stuff real fast that is considered exploiting, don't they.
Just remind me which dev said it was an exploit and when that was.

 

[Kaitsalt]

I enjoy everything about it (in it's current state) except the collection of many of the materials, which is admittedly a sizeable chunk of it. Designing a game where players can choose their own playstyle from a very diverse selection is really great. But then motivating them to do specific things far outside that playstyle (for hours on end) in order unlock things that benefit their playstyle is objectively bad design. On top of that it's such well trodden ground in other games that it comes across as amateurish.

 

[Stigbob]

So it was an exploit which they did nothing about until now?
Doesn't sound like fdev at all.
They usually nerf stuff real fast that is considered exploiting, don't they.
Just remind me which dev said it was an exploit and when that was.

What on earth are you talking about nerfs for ?.