Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Old Duck]

Just curious, why do you hate it?

Because ---v

But that's true for all sizes. Large and medium ships got much more agile with engineers. And while small ships also gained some agility, the bigger ones gained more out of these changes. It's much harder for a fully engineered light ship (and almost impossible for some of the slower small ships) to reliably stay out of the firing arc of a fully engineered large ship than to do so when no engineering was around.

That's just not realistic at all, and takes some of the fun out of the game. I hate seeing a destroyer (Anaconda, Corvette, etc) whipping around like a F22. It breaks my immersion, it ruins any tactical advantage I might have flying a smaller, lighter ship, etc. I also hate flying a large ship as if it were just Viper with a different cockpit. That's why I purposefully undersize my Conda's engines and fly very slow when I take it into combat, using different tactics (broadsides, drifting, etc) than I would in a small ship. Unfortunately all NPC pilots seem to think they are in Vipers, so I see Conda's doing tight loop-de-loops full-throttle, and it makes me so very sad...

ps - I'm ex-Navy, and aircraft carriers maneuver very different than the jets they launch (I know, not a perfect analogy, but inertia is inertia).

 

[Ethaidan]

Perhaps.

But free time is too precious to waste on "less smelly" garbage when good, well built games with engaging mechanics exist.

But not on their forums apparently. Do any of those well built games have forums?

 

[Jethzk]

I feel the same way. I like having ships, I like flying different things, I do not like grinding materials to upgrade. Trying to upgrade weapons on a small fleet burned me out. One can only take so many hours of searching for high grade emission sources....

I do not understand why Fdev thinks grind is a good thing. I have a lot more fun when I am not grinding. Doing something once can be fun, being forced to do it over and over can make even the most enjoyable thing, tedious and boring. That's the joy of Elite, it's a fly your path do your thing kind of game. It's a good that engineering says "hey, come try this aspect of the game". It's bad when it repeatedly forces players to do an activity they don't enjoy.

The problem with engineering is that it punishes players who change ships or equipment. 2x the time investment for a 2nd ship, 3x for a 3rd. Suddenly owning extra ships doesn't feel so good. A shame, I'd love to go play with some of the new stuff.

I would have loved to grind through the engineering unlocks (engineer level) and then have all the engineering stuff available as a result. Or at the very least, grind a model to max and the next maxes with 1 upgrade.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Perhaps.

But free time is too precious to waste on "less smelly" garbage when good, well built games with engaging mechanics exist.

Fair enough. I like the good parts of the game enough to deal with some garbage. But completely see how the grinds and certain broken mechanics turn people off.

 

[Blackcompany]

But not on their forums apparently. Do any of those well built games have forums?

I'd like to see a game the core mechanics of which I enjoy, improve. Is that so bad?

Sure Engineering is garbage. But it doesn't have to be.

We could scrap materials for regular upgrades, and make them necessary only if you want Experimental effects. If you dont, just pay credits.

That would let us all go back to playing our way, without missing out on Engineering.

Oh...and scrap unlock requirements. It's just a wait walked time sink that is, frankly, insulting.

 

[Blackcompany]

Fair enough. I like the good parts of the game enough to deal with some garbage. But completely see how the grinds and certain broken mechanics turn people off.

I love flying the ships. Unfortunately, outside of combat, there exists very little opportunity to do so. Unless you count staring straight ahead in SC as flying...

I'd like to see far more game take place in normal space. Mandate SC drops at 20km from stations, directly security reasons. Along the path between could be merchants, mission givers, pirates in some systems.

Let's deliver goods deep into rings, to mining rigs and bases. Pursue pirates back to makeshift bases comprised of cobbled together, partially destroyed ships. Fight Goids (minus the grind) amidst the crumbling remains of destroyed stations...

More time flying, less watching.

 

[Ethaidan]

I feel the same way. I like having ships, I like flying different things, I do not like grinding materials to upgrade. Trying to upgrade weapons on a small fleet burned me out. One can only take so many hours of searching for high grade emission sources....

I do not understand why Fdev thinks grind is a good thing. I have a lot more fun when I am not grinding. Doing something once can be fun, being forced to do it over and over can make even the most enjoyable thing, tedious and boring. That's the joy of Elite, it's a fly your path do your thing kind of game. It's a good that engineering says "hey, come try this aspect of the game". It's bad when it repeatedly forces players to do an activity they don't enjoy.

The problem with engineering is that it punishes players who change ships or equipment. 2x the time investment for a 2nd ship, 3x for a 3rd. Suddenly owning extra ships doesn't feel so good. A shame, I'd love to go play with some of the new stuff.

I would have loved to grind through the engineering unlocks (engineer level) and then have all the engineering stuff available as a result. Or at the very least, grind a model to max and the next maxes with 1 upgrade.

Actually, I've experienced accelerating returns while unlocking, and now it's almost silly.

I used to have three well engineered ships Cobra, Asp, & Python. Once the Python became an absurd death machine (vs NPCs) it meant I could fly with collector limpets and empty cargo. Every interdiction - submit, quick kill, quick scoop. Now with all the Engineers (save one), I do that with multiple ships. Sure, engineering allows for combat meta builds, but it also opens the door for different very resilient multi-role builds. My dedicated undermining ship now has an interdictor, collectors, cargo space... FSS D cruise toward HGE - if interdiction, submit - after interdiction carry on to HGE. And it is very resilient (vs AI). Except for last night. Scotch + undermining = misreading... why am I attacking a wing of Federal Security Anacondas! Runaway!

As for experimenting... I tried the FAS & FGS after the CG that unlocked them - very slowly engineered them as I went along and ended up really not liking them. Then presto - Chieftain uses near all the same internals as a FAS - instant new toy, near fully engineered. Same with the FGS - or Krait mkII, as I now refer to it.

Additionally, all my slow experimenting means I have a fair stockpile of engineered weapons, shields, SBs, HRPs, etc.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Fight Goids (minus the grind)

Minus the grind?!?! Have you gone mad, fella? That will completely ruin my CMDR's personal narrative. /s

Yeah, I'd like to check out more thargoid stuff but the idea of yet another set of unlocks burnt me just thinking about it

 

[C2306]

I think the way engineers are accessed and what they have is a disaster.

But all in all love engineering. love messing around on coriolis, then making it a real thing.

 

[Stigbob]

Minus the grind?!?! Have you gone mad, fella? That will completely ruin my CMDR's personal narrative. /s

Yeah, I'd like to check out more thargoid stuff but the idea of yet another set of unlocks burnt me just thinking about it

Buy some AX weps straight off the shelf.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

Buy some AX weps straight off the shelf.

So these available in Shinrarta without me having to deliver 27 kilotons of golden lavian cigars to SagA or whatever?

Thanks for the tip maybe I'll cook me up some thargoid burgers after all o7

 

[House0fDerp]

So these available in Shinrarta without me having to deliver 27 kilotons of golden lavian cigars to SagA or whatever?

Thanks for the tip maybe I'll cook me up some thargoid burgers after all 07

Not sure if Jameson Memorial is an exception but I believe AX weapons are typically stocked on military surface bases.

 

[Stigbob]

So these available in Shinrarta without me having to deliver 27 kilotons of golden lavian cigars to SagA or whatever?

Thanks for the tip maybe I'll cook me up some thargoid burgers after all 07

Yep the grind is not just exaggerated in general but non existent for AX stuff.

Only space cash required, they are available all over the place. Try a pair of large fixed AX MC's in a chieftain for scout hunting just to see if you like it.

 

[Fia]

I certainly don't enjoy it. Was not impressed when first heard about it being in development and was even less impressed when I eventually tried it long after it was implemented. Had to try it again recently to improve my jump range for DW2 and it was not as painful as before but probably because I just happened to have what few ingredients I needed already.

 

[Bill Clement]

So I've got a question, as one who joined the game after Engineers were introduced. Were the non-engineered modules always so bad, or were they nerfed when Engineers were introduced to encourage using the new game mechanic? I never engineer to make a "god ship", but rather to compensate for weakness in even A-rated modules. Whether it's a 10 LY jump range or beam lasers that drain the distributor in 2 seconds, I'm surprised how "not good" even A-rated ships often are, especially when compared to the other extreme - the G5 ships with every PowerPlay module installed - aka "god ships". I find neither extreme to be appealing.

ps - it's the extreme disparency between unengineered and max engineered ships that has completely turned me off to PvP in this game.

Man, that's so sad...[sad] The modules aren't 'bad' as stock. The game originally forced design choices on you- a cargo ship couldn't be a warship or vice versa, crazy agile ships couldn't be fast, combat ships were either hull tanks or shield tanks, you couldn't have both, and so on. There were some designs that could be pretty good at everything- mainly the Python and Anaconda- but even those multi-role kings would get beaten by a more specialised ship in their class doing specific things- the 'Vette is a better warship, the Cutter is a far better cargo carrier, for instance.
The game was pretty balanced. Some people liked to run a single, do it all ship, others (like me) experimented with different builds until they had something they liked using in each role they liked to play.
Now the inherent design flaws can be ironed out and almost everyone you meet has some maxed out uber wagon. There doesn't seem to be much point in the different types of ship, the only criterion seems to be how many (engineered) modules you can cram into a given sized hull.
It's taken a huge amount of character out of the game even while it's got most of us jumping through hoops to turn our game into a homogeneous, beige shadow of it's former, way more interesting self.

Nope they were the same. It made no difference at all. Prior to engineering people complained it was unbalanced as their unshielded traders were no match for armed ships much the same as it is now. The cure was always knowing how (and when) to high wake, exactly the same as now.

Engineering didn't even widen the gap, as traders could just get extra tanky if they wanted.

It also provided pure speed builds which are absolutely gank proof.

All true, with the addition that anyone daft enough to forgo heavy engineering is now doubly buggered. It's almost as if Sandro wants to get numbers up in Solo! [haha]

But not on their forums apparently. Do any of those well built games have forums?

This is the only game I play where forums and third party tools are a necessity. Most games you can refer to the manual or just figure it out yourself, this one has no manual and some of the most ridiculously obtuse design decisions I've ever seen. Basic game mechanics shouldn't be treated on a 'need to know' basis!

I feel the same way. I like having ships, I like flying different things, I do not like grinding materials to upgrade. Trying to upgrade weapons on a small fleet burned me out. One can only take so many hours of searching for high grade emission sources....

I do not understand why Fdev thinks grind is a good thing. I have a lot more fun when I am not grinding. Doing something once can be fun, being forced to do it over and over can make even the most enjoyable thing, tedious and boring. That's the joy of Elite, it's a fly your path do your thing kind of game. It's a good that engineering says "hey, come try this aspect of the game". It's bad when it repeatedly forces players to do an activity they don't enjoy.

The problem with engineering is that it punishes players who change ships or equipment. 2x the time investment for a 2nd ship, 3x for a 3rd. Suddenly owning extra ships doesn't feel so good. A shame, I'd love to go play with some of the new stuff.

I would have loved to grind through the engineering unlocks (engineer level) and then have all the engineering stuff available as a result. Or at the very least, grind a model to max and the next maxes with 1 upgrade.

+1 have rep. Wish I could send more...

Actually, I've experienced accelerating returns while unlocking, and now it's almost silly.

I used to have three well engineered ships Cobra, Asp, & Python. Once the Python became an absurd death machine (vs NPCs) it meant I could fly with collector limpets and empty cargo. Every interdiction - submit, quick kill, quick scoop. Now with all the Engineers (save one), I do that with multiple ships. Sure, engineering allows for combat meta builds, but it also opens the door for different very resilient multi-role builds. My dedicated undermining ship now has an interdictor, collectors, cargo space... FSS D cruise toward HGE - if interdiction, submit - after interdiction carry on to HGE. And it is very resilient (vs AI). Except for last night. Scotch + undermining = misreading... why am I attacking a wing of Federal Security Anacondas! Runaway!

As for experimenting... I tried the FAS & FGS after the CG that unlocked them - very slowly engineered them as I went along and ended up really not liking them. Then presto - Chieftain uses near all the same internals as a FAS - instant new toy, near fully engineered. Same with the FGS - or Krait mkII, as I now refer to it.

Additionally, all my slow experimenting means I have a fair stockpile of engineered weapons, shields, SBs, HRPs, etc.

Thanks mate, it's good to know there's at least some light at the end of the tunnel!

 

[mp4x]

I feel that one of the problems with engineering, for people who feel its too grindy, is often in this game in particular people don't loot the corpse. In most other [rpg/mmo] games and especially when low level, while out in the wilderness, if you kill a random enemy you loot the corpse for whatever it's carrying, then sort it out later/sell it at the inn. I've noticed in ED, quite a few people are killing those random encounters but take off to the next encounter without looting the corpse. Everyone plays differently and that's fine, but personally I started playing ED with that same approach to 'drops,' so yes by the time I got into Engineering I was loaded up to Engineer my Cobra and next ship without having to go any collect materials. I already had them. I can see that if I was focused on money or getting a large ship, that target fixation may have meant that when I decided to Engineer my ships I had to 'grind' the materials... But I don't play like that in other games, either. Like it, don't like it, whatever but I don't think there's anything wrong with the design, it's not that different from any other game whereby you have to get [object] to upgrade [equipment] ...

 

[Blackcompany]

I feel that one of the problems with engineering, for people who feel its too grindy, is often in this game in particular people don't loot the corpse. In most other [rpg/mmo] games and especially when low level, while out in the wilderness, if you kill a random enemy you loot the corpse for whatever it's carrying, then sort it out later/sell it at the inn. I've noticed in ED, quite a few people are killing those random encounters but take off to the next encounter without looting the corpse. Everyone plays differently and that's fine, but personally I started playing ED with that same approach to 'drops,' so yes by the time I got into Engineering I was loaded up to Engineer my Cobra and next ship without having to go any collect materials. I already had them. I can see that if I was focused on money or getting a large ship, that target fixation may have meant that when I decided to Engineer my ships I had to 'grind' the materials... But I don't play like that in other games, either. Like it, don't like it, whatever but I don't think there's anything wrong with the design, it's not that different from any other game whereby you have to get [object] to upgrade [equipment] ...

Looting corpses in other games isnt nearly as time consuming and cumbersome.

 

[mp4x]

Looting corpses in other games isnt nearly as time consuming and cumbersome.

I agree, but also - opening a cargo hatch and firing off a limpet is just two button presses.

 

[Blackcompany]

I agree, but also - opening a cargo hatch and firing off a limpet is just two button presses.

Then sitting and waiting. While you could play. There's a reason most games allow a "take all" option.

Add to this mat storage limits...

 

[EternalSorrow]

I agree, but also - opening a cargo hatch and firing off a limpet is just two button presses.

Who takes limpets on an armored combat ship? Scooping by yourself could be faster sometimes, but it's still scooping of a primarily low-grade materials.