in a world, where even one person likes slushes, i dont care about realism.
If you make claims
The game however, treats them as leopards by having them require actual climbing space.
If you are going to twist arguments, that's your business.again, this is not about claims.
This is about Jaguar's requirements, more specifically about this line from OP
If Lions/Tigers do not require Climbing Spaces in their enclosures, Jaguars should not require them either
I think you are missing the big picture here. Nobody has claimed jaguars can't climb, nor should their animations for climbing in the game be removed. It's just common knowledge that arboreal life is not part of a jaguar's ecology. All those examples you gave, like hunting from trees or running into one when being chased by hunters is typical behavior of animals that can climb. If chased in an open area, any big cat or bear would run up to a tree to get away. As for using trees for ambush, any sophisticated predator would use its surrounding environment to its advantage when ambushing prey. Tigers are also known to pounce prey using the height advantage and element of surprise trees provide, not because they were already up there. That's just hunting strategy, similar to how running into a tree is a flight strategy since dogs can't climb but cats and bears can. I personally don't know of any instance where lions have used trees to ambush, but I would assume that's because of the lack of trees in the savanna environment. A heavier cat, the Siberian tiger is known to utilize this hunting strategy.Using trees for hunting or hiding from dogs (the example from Arizona) does show that it's part of behavior.
I didn't start the argument to show Jaguars can climb (ofcourse they do) but OP is excluding some behaviors, which is incorrect. And judging from the photos/footage it's not considered rare.
The same about survival can be applied to coolers/heaters for some animals, they just adapt to the temperature of that country or the foilage. From that POV you can also discuss most PZ data, like male/female ratios.
If they benefit from this enrichment, why should this be an issue? If Frontier (or even better their source) has determined that jaguars do better with those enrichments. Just like Polar bears they decided on something, in this case something that a lot of zoos do in their jaguar habitats. (Could be a minimal requirement from their POV)
I agree with your argument - but I think a lot of zoos have more requirements in their habitats than specified in the AZA care manual. I'm not a big fan of "If it doesn't show up in the AZA manual, it's not needed' or using the AZA manual for every difference with PZ. I think if you study every AZA manual with the in-game species, you'll bound to find a lot of differences. I think during Beta someone commented they use various sources to determine the requirements for PZ. You can disagree but I don't think their POV should be considered wrong.
It seems like I've remembered correctly that Mountain Lions are rarely also called Panthers (but it seems like it mostly happens in the US that they are called Panthers). Maybe they were called Panthers more often in the Wild West when (at least I assume) Leopards and Jaguars weren't that well known by most People. There is also the Florida Panther which is a Subspecies of Mountain Lion that mostly lives in WetlandsRDR2 online as well as their story mode insist on calling cougars aka mountain lions aka pumas etc Panther's. I concur that most people don't know nor actually care that a Panther is actually appears to be solid black in color. However, though it does appear to be black, when the light is just right or you can get close enough such as I was able being a previous owner of one. They actually have the same marking as a leopard; Meaning they have spots.
Forgot to reply to this one. I don't support the idea that if something doesn't show on the AZA manuals it shouldn't be taken seriously. I work with wild and captive animals on a daily basis for over two decades and from day one I have supported and recommended gathering information from multiple scientific sources. However, your comment about the AZA care manuals showed me you underestimated the time and effort put into each manual during its preparation, therefore wanted to point out that the AZA manuals should be taken more seriously. And in our case, elevated activity space, the AZA (and any other credible source) recommends elevated activity spaces for all big cats and bears. With the exception of the Asiatic black bear, non of the big cats and bears have that need in the game. So the difference is already defined by the game that arboreal needs and elevated activity spaces are two separate things, one addressed with only climbing animations, the other with both the animations and habitat requirements. This is why for consistency, the jaguar should also follow suit. Or just about every other climbing animal should be getting a climbing space requirement as it is recommended by every care manual you can find.I agree with your argument - but I think a lot of zoos have more requirements in their habitats than specified in the AZA care manual. I'm not a big fan of "If it doesn't show up in the AZA manual, it's not needed' or using the AZA manual for every difference with PZ. I think if you study every AZA manual with the in-game species, you'll bound to find a lot of differences. I think during Beta someone commented they use various sources to determine the requirements for PZ. You can disagree but I don't think their POV should be considered wrong.
Debunking? Non of those links debunk anything I said. They instead support the first source I provided myself. I think you misunderstood the purpose of my post. It was me who linked the source that shows proof jaguars can actually climb. Why would I link that and then try to claim the opposite? That link was a great example to how people can be misguided for a long period of time assuming something is right or wrong. Which then leads to ignorance. For decades people thought jaguars couldn't climb up trees, so much so that it had reached myth level. People were mislead because jaguars (or tigers, lions and big bears) climbing is a rather rare occurrence and occurs only under certain circumstances that most people don't have the privilege to witness. Since the second half of the 20th century this belief slowly disappeared as we learned more about their behavior.I can debunk that one with a quick google result:
(if this happens to be leopard pics, sry - just going with google on this one - and ignore those pics )
Hunting from trees are more examples, but this one is just cool:
I've only seen a few jaguars in zoos actually (or remember seeing them) but most of those exhibits have climbing options (or elevated platforms, which also qualifies as the same in PZ)
I knew about Artis, most times I've been there - seen 1 or 2 using those trees in the first video.
AZA is mostly used a minimal requirements rule book. A lot of zoos mix info/data from several sources to create the ideal situation. Could be an expert from SA, who says their jaguars behave better when they have those climbing options.
Swimming space should be obvious, even underwater they are good swimmers. They should even add/improve those animations when they figured out diving/swimming in PZ.
If you are going to twist arguments, that's your business.
OP made claims - quoted them and I debunked them - you don't see this - fine by me.
Explained the requirements, if you don't get it - that's fine. If you look in actual zoos, you can see the differences more clearly. Or youtube/google etc.
I can debunk that one with a quick google result:
[Image of Jaguar sleeping in a tree]
Non of those links debunk anything I said.
.." nor do they sleep in them."
I thought Cheetahs can't climb or are they for the Cheetahs to jump from one Platform to another?Even cheetahs are given platforms.
I'm not completely sure but I think for some Reason Polar Bears can't climb in the GamePolar bears on trees.
Oh I see now why this has been so confusing. I never claimed jaguars can't sleep in trees. Don't and can't are two different things. Lions and tigers can also sleep in trees, but they typically don't. If something makes its way into fun facts and game mechanics, it should be a trait that defines an animal. You can find images of crocodilians and turtles sleeping in an overhanging tree, that doesn't make them an animal that sleeps in trees. Jaguars were clearly mistaken for leopards with that fun fact. The combination of that fun fact and the habitat requirements in the game clearly showed me they were mistaken for leopards when being added to the game. According to the game their tree climbing is stressed out multiple times as a defining trait, not a behavior they can perform. I hope this explanation once and for all clears all the confusion about my post.Note: I agree that Jaguars should not have the climbing need, but you said they never sleep in trees, but they do... One photo is enough to debunk the statement, even if rare.
Well said. Even animals like cheetahs and polar bears are given platforms and boulders to add variation to the terrain height or for their enrichment as well as.vantage points, opportunity to sunbathe and exercise. This is why I think it is crucial to:Case in point, many zoos add climbing platforms and such for their cheetah, which are not habitual climbers at all. In captivity they do use platforms, mostly to sleep and sunbathe, and to get a good view of their surroundings. Same with lions. In Planet Zoo, I add climbing equipment for any animal that can use it, even if they don't need it, because that's pretty much what most decent real zoos do (even my local, which is very low budget, has climbing options to a certain degree for their lions and cheetah).
Now that the thread has cooled down, I want to clarify what I meant there. By them not being climbers I meant that as a species defining trait. An analogy would be the difference between a drinker and someone drinking socially. Gorillas for instance aren't climbers, but they do climb. A climber would be an orangutan that has a lifestyle built around climbing.Ah I see, but that's not what multiple well informed websites tell me.
As well as the site the OP used
It actually makes sense why cheetahs and polar bears don't have climbing animations in the game. They are both very poor climbers. Polar bears have very recently diverged from brown bears but their claws are not the best for climbing. Same with cheetahs, both animals need ideal circumstances to be able to climb, like a somewhat slanted, rugged tree. The current climbing system/animations in the game would look really awkward on them, as they shouldn't be able to go up smooth vertical poles, let alone that quickly. Ramps or slanted "traversable logs" would be better options for those two.I thought Cheetahs can't climb or are they for the Cheetahs to jump from one Platform to another?
I'm not completely sure but I think for some Reason Polar Bears can't climb in the Game
I hope they will change it. It would be awesome to see one of my Polar Bears on the Tree in their Enclosure
Interesting. I really thought it would be impossible for Cheetahs to climb on TreesThis is basically how a cheetah climbs a tree when it has to: