Elite:Dangerous for Linux?

[Jay Fox]

The -only- reason I'm back to running in Windows at home is because of Elite Dangerous.[...]

Well said; Me too - the only reason I use this piece of garbage is for ED.[...]

Running Elite: Dangerous in a virtual machine doesn't work for you? I mean, sure, hardware quirks can be a show-blocker, but if that's not a problem then the only issues with a virtual machine that I can see would be political ones. (Without implying any non-validity, just keeping practical for the moment.)
Me, I'm quite happy with not having to fiddle with Wine any more while still running a Linux distribution as host. Have been doing so since a few years.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Running Elite: Dangerous in a virtual machine doesn't work for you? I mean, sure, hardware quirks can be a show-blocker, but if that's not a problem then the only issues with a virtual machine that I can see would be political ones. (Without implying any non-validity, just keeping practical for the moment.)
Me, I'm quite happy with not having to fiddle with Wine any more while still running a Linux distribution as host. Have been doing so since a few years.

Many people do that these days and I agree with current prop of machines it is viable alternative. Not for me at the moment, although that might be in future.

Having Wine port would be better though. It is way way harder to do and is more of experiment than actual possibility at this point.

 

[Micha]

Running Elite: Dangerous in a virtual machine doesn't work for you?

What's the point of running ED in a VM running Windows as opposed to multibooting? You still have to faff about with Windows and on top of that you lose some performance in a VM.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Linux is very usable for common folks. They choose to look over the choice because most of the time they don't want one.

That's all I wanted to say. Nothing about you personally (sorry if that came out that way).

Yeah, it did, so thanks for clearing that up - and honestly that's not why the "common folk" don't use, or even know about Linux, at least not here in the US.

People don't know about it, or even know that it exists, because it's not pre-loaded on the PC's they pick up at BestBuy, or OfficeMax, or Wal*Mart.

The vast and growing number of PC users only know what they've seen in stores, or have seen commercials for - and Linux (any flavor) just doesn't have that.
Office places order their PC's and Laptops from Dell or Lenovo, and these come pre-packaged with some flavor of Windows, and that's all they know that exists, because OEM's don't (usually) package Linux.
Yes, you can order some servers from some OEM's that are Linux built, but your bulk office workers will never see these.

Thus the overwhelming majority will never see them.

Schools don't have PC labs filled with Linux machines. They have PC's running Windows. Or worse, OSX. And that's nothing against OSX, but when it comes to narrow views, the OSX folks are the worst of the bunch - to the point of refusing to even try to use anything else.

And this has always, and will always, hold Linux back from being considered a serious avenue for software developers.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

And this has always, and will always, hold Linux back from being considered a serious avenue for software developers.

While my mind agrees, I find hard just to throw towel down just yet. However, having good OS I can rely on for last 10 years have helped not to worry about much what outside world thinks.

ED is one of last reasons why I still have Windows 7 installation around. ED also might one of reasons why would want to invest more my coding time into game development.

Thanks for your insights and have a nice weekend to you all!

 

[amigacooke]

They have PC's running Windows. Or worse, OSX. And that's nothing against OSX, but when it comes to narrow views, the OSX folks are the worst of the bunch - to the point of refusing to even try to use anything else.

Really? We have three macOS users in our team at work and we all use Windows machines as well as that's the standard OS for our employer. I'd suggest that most minority OS users are required to use Windows in their work environment.

I also have to use Windows at home ... if I want to play ED with Horizons.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Really? We have three macOS users in our team at work and we all use Windows machines as well as that's the standard OS for our employer. I'd suggest that most minority OS users are required to use Windows in their work environment.

I also have to use Windows at home ... if I want to play ED with Horizons.

Not all of them, just enough to make them stand out - they're the same ones who will look you in the eye and tell you "Macs don't get viruses." and mean it from the depths of the beings - https://securitywatch.pcmag.com/none/295168-the-ten-most-dangerous-mac-viruses

They do. They get malware too, because they're holding a market share - just not as big of one as Windows, and it doesn't draw the same kind of 3rd World hate that Windows does.

I've run Windows, the same Windows, for many years.

I ran Windows 2000 for 6 and half years with 99.9% uptime - only update and service packs forced me to restart. Eventually I was forced to move to XP because the software I used would no longer run.
My XP ran solid and stable for 3.5 years with the same kind of uptime, until I moved to Windows 7.

Windows 7 took me the better part of a week to get nice and stable, but once it did, only updates and one bad nVidia driver ever took it down.

Currently I run Windows 10 for all my Windows needs, and it likewise maintains great uptime and reliability - but I will mention that I do not run a retail version. I run an Enterprise version provided by my employer - as I often work from my home office, and this is a benefit of being a Microsoft partner. But I run it on an ESX host, along with a Ubuntu VM, IRIX VM, and several others as well - again, largely work-related, though I do have some personal VM's as well, and I don't run on an out-of-the-box PC - I've been building my own PC's since the '90's for far less than any OEM offers, with greater reliability and stability than you get from an OEM and at a lower price.

I don't really have anything against any particular operating system - just some the attitudes projected by users.

 

[amigacooke]

I don't really have anything against any particular operating system - just some the attitudes projected by users.

I think you should look at what you've written in this thread and see if you're just trying to fool yourself.

 

[lenna]

I am a bit of a *NIX fan but for most of my life I have been using Windows... why?

Simple answer, hardware drivers and general commercial software availability...

I have used Wine and WineX/Cedega to run some Windows desktop software under Linux and quite a while back I was happy to rely on this method as my primary means for running at least some Windows software but with at least some hardware there are issues with the Linux environment.

How usable Linux is for any given user depends on many factors including the distro they select but overall any claims that "Linux is very usable for common folks" is at least a bit of an exaggeration. While it is true that almost any of the current GUI/WIMP environments (Windows/Mac/Linux) are very usable (in a day to day sense) and almost any nominal computer user will be able to work with it there are other factors which make Linux as a general platform very unfriendly to the average person. Printers, Scanners, Web Cams, and Graphics Drivers are some of the primary areas that could do with significant improvement on the Linux platform based on both past and current experience. In addition, networking can be problematic depending on the machine you are deploying on. Gaming controllers can also be a bit quirky too.

I applaud the efforts of Valve to make gaming on Linux more accessible via Steam and support ED being made available on the Linux platform BUT... let's not delude ourselves about the Linux environment - when it works (and is configured) properly it typically works well and probably better than (if not on-par with) the Windows environment... BUT... Windows is typically far easier (and quicker) to get up and running for the average person on a wider variety of current hardware configurations. Linux has improved immensely over the past 20years and there are exceptions to both cases but it is still a factor that can not be ignored.

TL;DR those of us that are Linux fans should not delude ourselves about the pros and cons of the environment; However, I still look forward to the day that FD officially supports ED on Linux via one means or another.

 

[Brianetta]

"Printers, Scanners, Web Cams, and Graphics Drivers" are not areas of Linux where I've had any significant issues over the last ten years. Neither are game controllers. In fact, they work without me having to visit the web site of the manufacturer to try to find additional things to install. Since I'm unused to the great Windows driver hunt, I have a much harder time getting a freshly installed Windows machine working properly than I do a Linux machine.

It's not a matter of which is more mature any more, or which is easier. It's just a matter of what you're used to. For me, it's Windows that is the foreign territory that doesn't support the hardware as well as what I'm used to.

 

[lenna]

"Printers, Scanners, Web Cams, and Graphics Drivers" are not areas of Linux where I've had any significant issues over the last ten years. Neither are game controllers. In fact, they work without me having to visit the web site of the manufacturer to try to find additional things to install. Since I'm unused to the great Windows driver hunt, I have a much harder time getting a freshly installed Windows machine working properly than I do a Linux machine.

It's not a matter of which is more mature any more, or which is easier. It's just a matter of what you're used to. For me, it's Windows that is the foreign territory that doesn't support the hardware as well as what I'm used to.

Drivers in Linux are a real rats nest, there is no getting around that issue - I have had issues getting a modern nVidia graphics card working properly on Linux (if at all) in the past 2 years. Not only that but unless the USB Controller/Web Cam hardware is a standard HID device there are typically issues.

Where printers are concerned the issues are complex, but unless the manufacturer explicitly supports Linux for the device there are typically issues even with printers that are allegedly compatible with one of the generic printer standards. Less an issue if it is truly Post Script compliant at a hardware level. Even when manufacturers do explicitly support Linux it is not guaranteed to work without issue for any given distro.

Scanners are a more complicated concern, but suffice to say that pretty much ALL hardware manufacturers support Windows properly but very few support Linux properly (if at all) IME.

Where hunting for Windows drivers is concerned, you need only go to the manufacturers web-site for the given component... exception being laptop hardware which can deviate enough from the manufacturers standard that you need to go elsewhere for them (depending on the laptop hardware). This can be ALOT worse for Linux, and the open source equivalents of certain drivers can be extremely problematic.

I have had driver issues with Windows too over the years but far less issues on balance.

As for which is more mature/easier, it does matter where claims about "ease of use" and "user friendliness" are concerned (wrt average/common person statements). If you happen to have 75th percentile/average hardware configurations then you may get away with Linux behaving itself during setup, configuration, and updates but it is far from a guarantee.

 

[Brianetta]

Wow, I don't know which distribution you're using, but it's not the one I use. NVidia support is strongest (with NVidia's configuration tools giving full control over the hardware). The only trouble with printers is *not* connecting to new ones as they are powered up for the first time. USB, bluetooth or WiFi, they just appear, ready to print, whether I ask or not.

All my gaming keyboards, mice, steering wheels, game pads etc. are HID devices. I think I'd be rather surprised (and somewhat annoyed) if I bought one and it turned out not to be.

It sounds to me like whichever distribution you're using hasn't moved ahead significantly for about ten years. Perhaps time to try a better one?

 

[lenna]

Wow, I don't know which distribution you're using, but it's not the one I use. NVidia support is strongest (with NVidia's configuration tools giving full control over the hardware). The only trouble with printers is *not* connecting to new ones as they are powered up for the first time. USB, bluetooth or WiFi, they just appear, ready to print, whether I ask or not.

All my gaming keyboards, mice, steering wheels, game pads etc. are HID devices. I think I'd be rather surprised (and somewhat annoyed) if I bought one and it turned out not to be.

It sounds to me like whichever distribution you're using hasn't moved ahead significantly for about ten years. Perhaps time to try a better one?

The issues in question are less a distribution issue and more a general Linux driver issue - a lot of the time drivers tend to need to be compiled (in part or in whole) - and where gaming devices and other hardware is concerned getting some of the more advanced features working is often hit and miss.

Audio configuration on Linux is another area that is somewhat lacking when compared with Windows.

I have worked with several distributions over the years and NONE of them are perfect where setup and configuration are concerned and most have got worse not better IMO.

My overriding point is Linux (in general) is far from a consumer friendly OS despite (and in some cases because of) changes/improvements over the past 20 (or so) years.

 

[Brianetta]

It's my experience that it's nowhere near as bad as you're making out. Therefore, I don't believe you're as familiar with the current state of Linux as you make out. Never mind, you stay in Windows. Windows already has Elite: Dangerous, so that's you sorted.

 

[lenna]

It's my experience that it's nowhere near as bad as you're making out. Therefore, I don't believe you're as familiar with the current state of Linux as you make out.

I am well aware of the state of play, I have worked (and do work) with several distributions and I believe you are coloured too much by your own experience with a particular distro (or distro pedigree) on a limited set of hardware.

Nvidia and ATI/AMD graphics have gone through spats of being both good and bad on the Linux platform - issues tend to be more pronounced with newer cards soon after they are released. On Windows, the issues tend to arise when Microsoft's HWQL step in (the HWQL situation is a bit hit and miss) but the driver situation soon after new hardware is released tends to be much better in the main.

Network configuration on Linux tends to be a bit hit-and-miss but with older network devices it can actually be better than Windows. Where WiFi is concerned, I find Linux far worse than on Windows (on balance).

Linux is (probably) a technically better environment than Windows in the main but it is "still" lacking in several areas which does make it a poor choice of environment for non-technical consumers who have anything more than the most basic of demands on it.

Anyone claiming Linux (in general) is mainstream consumer ready is deluding themselves and misleading other people. Specific distros (such as Steam OS) may be better than others for specific setups and uses but when things go wrong you better have no fear of the *NIX command line and be prepared to faff with the configuration.

 

[Brianetta]

Yeah, still not convinced, sorry.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The issues in question are less a distribution issue and more a general Linux driver issue - a lot of the time drivers tend to need to be compiled (in part or in whole) - and where gaming devices and other hardware is concerned getting some of the more advanced features working is often hit and miss.

Audio configuration on Linux is another area that is somewhat lacking when compared with Windows.

I have worked with several distributions over the years and NONE of them are perfect where setup and configuration are concerned and most have got worse not better IMO.

My overriding point is Linux (in general) is far from a consumer friendly OS despite (and in some cases because of) changes/improvements over the past 20 (or so) years.

Sorry, but as someone involved in professional support for Linux desktop and server for 15 years and as someone using Linux on casual basis I strongly disagree with you.

Linux is very consumer friendly OS, especially if done OEM style as Windows usually is. And that's a fact. I don't feel I need to justify it. I understand it is not your OS of choice.

 

[lenna]

Sorry, but as someone involved in professional support for Linux desktop and server for 15 years and as someone using Linux on casual basis I strongly disagree with you.

Linux is very consumer friendly OS, especially if done OEM style as Windows usually is. And that's a fact. I don't feel I need to justify it. I understand it is not your OS of choice.

Errmm... have you actually read my posts because I think you have not based on this post...

I actually prefer Linux but in the consumer level usability and maintainability stakes Windows trumps it hands-down.

If you are using Linux as a UNIX environment on hardware specifically selected for it then it is a brilliant environment and has lots of benefits but as a developer and user of computer systems for what must be over 20 years now, in this context - as a practical alternative to Windows - Linux is still well off the mark.

PS/3 is essentially a UNIX type environment and is a prime example where *NIX can be effective as a gaming environment but it is a tightly controlled specification both in terms of system level software and hardware. MacOS/X is another consumer UNIX but again the hardware and system level software are tightly controlled. There are even some reasonable Netbooks that run Linux and are quite effective and usable.

Overall, the main point with these systems is they are effectively BLACK BOX devices with their system configuration tightly managed - when considering the big picture with Linux though, it is a general WHITE BOX platform - there are no tight controls on system configuration or hardware, and commercial support for hardware when compared with that for Windows is poor. In the context of this particular discussion, Linux is still a weak contender when compared with the Windows platform. Especially when you consider the complications with installing and configuring Linux on a wide range of hardware.

The situation with Valve and Steam OS (another Linux distro) may result in this changing in the long run BUT I would not hold my breath. One of the major issues I have found over the years of working with Linux distros is when it comes to time to upgrading the base OS or any of the libraries ALOT of pain can ensue.

 

[PiLhEaD]

Whether or not the multitude of linux's are, or are not, average-user-friendly is moot.

The incontrovertible fact is that Linux commands only a minute percentage of the PC market place.

Unless a game's engine compiles natively to Linux, it is simple economics that says that [your favourite game] will likely never get a Linux port. There's just no money in it.

Sorry. But get over it.

 

[lenna]

Whether or not the multitude of linux's are, or are not, average-user-friendly is moot.

The incontrovertible fact is that Linux commands only a minute percentage of the PC market place.

Unless a game's engine compiles natively to Linux, it is simple economics that says that [your favourite game] will likely never get a Linux port. There's just no money in it.

Sorry.

True - Valve's cross-platform (Windows/Linux/MacOS) initiative is probably a good start for getting game developers to develop worth while games for Linux BUT there are at least some developers that probably do not trust Valve's motives.