Elite Dangerous Issue Report - 07/09/2021

Northpin

Northpin
Alec Turner said:
Seriously tho, you have highlighted something quite suspect here. I genuinely thought they were literally just exporting the top 20 (I mean, if I were FD showcasing the top 20 issues there's actually a few on the list that I might have chosen to, ahem, gloss over if I were them) so I find it quite shocking that they skipped that "automated accounts" issue. Hadn't realised you could sort the confirmed list on number of votes ... VERY interesting!
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Could be simply because they know the votes are coming from members of the same community (alts included) so not really statistically relevant, and the said botting issue is actually affecting a rather small part of community and not at last, it's not easy to deal with it since it's not a bug per se. Or an actual technical issue. More likely a breach of TOS

Anyway the entire botting thing seems a bit weird to me.
On one side they are against automation
On the other side they endorse VoiceAttack that makes possible to automate things that are not even in the game... like making automated docking requests...
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Northpin said:
Could be simply because they know the votes are coming from members of the same community (alts included) so not really statistically relevant, and the said botting issue is actually affecting a rather small part of community and not at last, it's not easy to deal with it since it's not a bug per se. Or an actual technical issue. More likely a breach of TOS

Anyway the entire botting thing seems a bit weird to me.
On one side they are against automation
On the other side they endorse VoiceAttack that makes possible to automate things that are not even in the game... like making automated docking requests...
Click to expand...
Although I always think 90% of all bot activity is down to better players, its a bit of a stretch to suddenly say anyone who votes for things is brigading / gaming the system. Could you turn that around and say explorers with VR headsets are doing the same? Or that any high voting issue has been put that high?

Communities in ED have issues and if FD want the issue tracker to be taken seriously have to look at whats been voted for and tell us whats being done- otherwise, whats the point?
 

Northpin

Northpin
Rubbernuke said:
Although I always think 90% of all bot activity is down to better players, its a bit of a stretch to suddenly say anyone who votes for things is brigading / gaming the system. Could you turn that around and say explorers with VR headsets are doing the same?
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definitely not, but the said explorers with VR are not organized in squadrons with centralized leadership and with a political purpose behind it.
For example one of the biggest bgs squadrons can mobilize their entire membership and have hundred of votes for a certain issue - but that does not mean the said issue is of general interest, the votes are statistically relevant for the entire player base and the said issue is affecting everyone.

But i guess the main reason for not listing it, it's the fact that's not actually a technical issue but more likely a TOS breach issue.
And we all know that TOS breaches are not subject of discussion.
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Northpin said:
definitely not, but the said explorers with VR are not organized in squadrons with centralized leadership and with a political purpose behind it.
For example one of the biggest bgs squadrons can mobilize their entire membership and have hundred of votes for a certain issue - but that does not mean the said issue is of general interest, the votes are statistically relevant for the entire player base and the said issue is affecting everyone.

But i guess the main reason for not listing it, it's the fact that's not actually a technical issue but more likely a TOS breach issue.
And we all know that TOS breaches are not subject of discussion.
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But in the end, its still votes, and thus still valid to investigate or at the very least say on camera "we hear you, this is what we think". FD on camera wasted a huge amount of time going over the same issues from last week when they could have used 5 minutes of that to explain the reasoning behind blanking this one- and since they have not its just kicked a hole in the "better communication" mantra for a lot of people who think there is a problem.

But its not just a TOS problem- Powerplay as an example is a PvE mechanics issue. AFK turretboats are not TOS breaking, but they do (via a combination of weak / outmoded / exploitable mechanics) cause game balance issues. Prep lists can be messed up by voting by legit multiple console account players. Its not TOS breaking but its exploiting a weakness. Fortifying can be automated, because it involves hardly any interaction because the PvE layer of Powerplay is micron thin- once I counted the identical keypresses I needed to fly and it was something crazy like 50 each time.

This issue is a gestalt of many other overlapping issues, and amending even just a few would break chains of exploits.

The BGS is a slightly different matter, but for once Powerplay via its simplicity can have cheap solutions but FD continually run screaming when it comes time to talk about it.
 

Northpin

Northpin
Rubbernuke said:
But in the end, its still votes, and thus still valid to investigate or at the very least say on camera
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Well, if the policy is "this is not a subject of discussion" then nothing can be acknoledged, except for a generic post like you can already find it on the forums (like the one posted after SDC made a big fuss about the ED cheats/hacks/trainers)

But the fact that the issue is still there and it not closed or marked as invalid, means that's there to be investigated. Just not talked about.

Rubbernuke said:
But its not just a TOS problem- Powerplay as an example is a PvE mechanics issue. AFK turretboats are not TOS breaking, but they do (via a combination of weak / outmoded / exploitable mechanics) cause game balance issues. Prep lists can be messed up by voting by legit multiple console account players. Its not TOS breaking but its exploiting a weakness. Fortifying can be automated, because it involves hardly any interaction because the PvE layer of Powerplay is micron thin- once I counted the identical keypresses I needed to fly and it was something crazy like 50 each time.

This issue is a gestalt of many other overlapping issues, and amending even just a few would break chains of exploits.

The BGS is a slightly different matter, but for once Powerplay via its simplicity can have cheap solutions but FD continually run screaming when it comes time to talk about it.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 

zimms

zimms
Northpin said:
Could be simply because they know the votes are coming from members of the same community (alts included) so not really statistically relevant, and the said issue is actually affecting a rather small part of community and not at last, it's not easy to deal with it since it's not a bug per se. [...]
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Are you talking about that VR telemetry issue? 😅

edit: Also, there's a difference between "not up for discussion" and pretending it doesn't exist at all.
 

Alec Turner

Alec Turner
@sallymorganmoore - you've been awesome in the past in gathering feedback on a specific issue (e.g. the camera suite). I wonder if you'd consider doing the same for the issue tracker itself? (assuming it's a piece of software that Frontier own and can modify).

I say this 'cos I had a couple of immediate ideas.

1) When an issue you've contributed to goes to the voting stage you should get a notification to let you know.

2) When one of your votes is free'd up by an issue getting flagged as fixed or auto-expired for example you should get a notification to let you know.

3) Controversial but bear with me ... our votes should auto-expire after a time (e.g. 3 months), again with a notification so we can immediately go and recast that vote on the same issue if it's something that still bothers us. This will prevent ancient issues which have gathered many votes over time from sitting high on the issue tracker when the people who cast those votes have left or don't really care about those issues any more (I say this one having taken a sneak peek at some of the issues bubbling under the top 20 which are going to be riding to the top soon).
 

sallymorganmoore

Senior Community Manager : Elite Dangerous
Alec Turner said:
@sallymorganmoore - you've been awesome in the past in gathering feedback on a specific issue (e.g. the camera suite). I wonder if you'd consider doing the same for the issue tracker itself? (assuming it's a piece of software that Frontier own and can modify).

I say this 'cos I had a couple of immediate ideas.

1) When an issue you've contributed to goes to the voting stage you should get a notification to let you know.

2) When one of your votes is free'd up by an issue getting flagged as fixed or auto-expired for example you should get a notification to let you know.

3) Controversial but bear with me ... our votes should auto-expire after a time (e.g. 3 months), again with a notification so we can immediately go and recast that vote on the same issue if it's something that still bothers us. This will prevent ancient issues which have gathered many votes over time from sitting high on the issue tracker when the people who cast those votes have left or don't really care about those issues any more (I say this one having taken a sneak peek at some of the issues bubbling under the top 20 which are going to be riding to the top soon).
Click to expand...

Heya!
Gosh Alec, this is a huuuuuge topic for the past...omgosh - ages throughout the Forum , so I'm happy to say it's not just me considering improvements based on feedback - we're still absolutely taking these kinds of thoughts onboard to hopefully update on progress soon. Thanks for sharing more on it!
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Northpin said:
Well, if the policy is "this is not a subject of discussion" then nothing can be acknoledged, except for a generic post like you can already find it on the forums (like the one posted after SDC made a big fuss about the ED cheats/hacks/trainers)

But the fact that the issue is still there and it not closed or marked as invalid, means that's there to be investigated. Just not talked about.



giphy.gif
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At the very least (i.e. communicate) that FD know about the issue voted on- if they had then this would not be happening.

And I find it funny that identifying the issue is bait for FD :D I'd never extend the length of this thread by ten pages dissecting and discussing the issue*

*I would I imagine though
 

CMDR Either

CMDR Either
ObiW said:
That one seems to be the only issue that doesn't have the green tick on it - what does that stand for again, 'confirmed'/'acknowledged'?
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The green tick means "Acknowledged". The entire list I had in that screenshot are all confirmed issues. And based on the tally of votes on Bruce's message there must be somewhere between 265 and 423 votes asking Frontier to address the issue with Bots.

This isn't surprising to me, there are about 200 player groups in the community who have acknowledged the problem of botting, and signed the Anti-Botting Agreement. Sadly of course botting still continues because this isn't really something that the community can fix.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
CMDR Either said:
The green tick means "Acknowledged". The entire list I had in that screenshot are all confirmed issues. And based on the tally of votes on Bruce's message there must be somewhere between 265 and 423 votes asking Frontier to address the issue with Bots.

This isn't surprising to me, there are about 200 player groups in the community who have acknowledged the problem of botting, and signed the Anti-Botting Agreement. Sadly of course botting still continues because this isn't really something that the community can fix.
Click to expand...
So acknowledged is by other users, and confirmed is done by FDev right? Not trying to be obtuse, I just barely ever go near the issue tracker because quite frankly I think it's a waste of (my) time.
 

CMDR Either

CMDR Either
Northpin said:
Could be simply because they know the votes are coming from members of the same community (alts included) so not really statistically relevant, and the said botting issue is actually affecting a rather small part of community and not at last, it's not easy to deal with it since it's not a bug per se. Or an actual technical issue. More likely a breach of TOS

Anyway the entire botting thing seems a bit weird to me.
On one side they are against automation
On the other side they endorse VoiceAttack that makes possible to automate things that are not even in the game... like making automated docking requests...
Click to expand...

This isn't correct. The anti-botting agreement shows the list of squadrons whose leadership acknowledge the problem of automated accounts in Elite and have committed to do what little they can about it.

inara.cz

INARA

The community site for Elite: Dangerous, Starfield with the game databases, information, gaming news and other handy content...
inara.cz inara.cz

There are at least a couple hundred squadrons listed on here. I strongly suspect that the only reason there are not more votes against this issue are because there is a great deal of cynicism in the community about FDev's willingness to address this issue. Indeed a lot of it has been shown on this thread too.

And it's entirely possible that I'm just a hopeless optimist, but i do believe that FDev's desire to improve their communication is genuine. So, I wanted to highlight this as best I can.
 

KKomrade Sylas

KKomrade Sylas
ObiW said:
So acknowledged is by other users, and confirmed is done by FDev right? Not trying to be obtuse, I just barely ever go near the issue tracker because quite frankly I think it's a waste of (my) time.
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"Confirmed" means that at least 10 different users have given reproduction details in that one bug. Once an issue is confirmed, you can vote on it. You cannot vote on it before that.

"Acknowledged" is FDev giving it a green tick saying "Ok, we're aware of this"
 

Deleted member 182079

D
KKomrade Sylas said:
"Confirmed" means that at least 10 different users have given reproduction details in that one bug. Once an issue is confirmed, you can vote on it. You cannot vote on it before that.

"Acknowledged" is FDev giving it a green tick saying "Ok, we're aware of this"
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Ah, other way around then. Thanks for the explanation.
 

CMDR Either

CMDR Either
ObiW said:
So acknowledged is by other users, and confirmed is done by FDev right? Not trying to be obtuse, I just barely ever go near the issue tracker because quite frankly I think it's a waste of (my) time.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have been clearer.

When an issue is raised on the bug tracker it gets the status "Confirming", and other players can vote to support it if they too have been affected by the issue.

It gets the status of "Confirmed" when 10 or more players have independently confirmed the issue (in the case of the Automated accounts it is at least 265 so well beyond that threshold).

"Confirmed" issues are then reviewed by FDev internally and the status "Acknowledged" is given to legitimate issues. From this point onwards the issue is tracked internally by FDev.
 
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