General Energy bomb v2

[SergMx]

My suggestion would completely remove ganking from the game, do we need it ?

It is a class 1 weapon, occupies one weapon slot, can be triggered by pressing a button or automatic just before the ship explodes.

When this device is activated, the cargo hatch breaks and the entire cargo flies out into space.
The player's ship gives a pulse to the FSD engine, and no matter if it is broken or not, the ship makes a jump to the zone between systems (as intercepted by the Thargoids).

 

[Screemonster]

Hey so
Back when I was doing PvP pirating, and constantly thwarted by people just logging out when I sent them comms (and the vicious cycle of criminally inclined players moving to ganking, and people logging out on pirates because there's no way to tell a pirate from a ganker, etc)
One of the things I found myself asking was "how would one mechanically support piracy, powerplay, bounty hunting and so on, while not supporting straight-up ganking?"

And one of the things that came to mind was "what if logging out made you drop 10 or so tons of cargo as if you'd been hatchbroken, then moved you to a safe location so you wouldn't log back in the same place?"
It'd mean pirates would get their loot even if their quarry do just mash the escape button the instant they're interdicted and proceed to ignore all communications, thus leaving them not feeling punished for being nice enough to not just blow them to pieces the instant they dropped.

So, uh, yeah, I think "escape but drop your cargo" has its worth as a mechanic certainly. Not sure if I'd make it a module.

then again I'm one of those weirdos who thinks it would have been interesting if shield boosters or cell banks were hardpoints instead

 

[Darrack]

Hey so
Back when I was doing PvP pirating, and constantly thwarted by people just logging out when I sent them comms (and the vicious cycle of criminally inclined players moving to ganking, and people logging out on pirates because there's no way to tell a pirate from a ganker, etc)
One of the things I found myself asking was "how would one mechanically support piracy, powerplay, bounty hunting and so on, while not supporting straight-up ganking?"

And one of the things that came to mind was "what if logging out made you drop 10 or so tons of cargo as if you'd been hatchbroken, then moved you to a safe location so you wouldn't log back in the same place?"
It'd mean pirates would get their loot even if their quarry do just mash the escape button the instant they're interdicted and proceed to ignore all communications, thus leaving them not feeling punished for being nice enough to not just blow them to pieces the instant they dropped.

So, uh, yeah, I think "escape but drop your cargo" has its worth as a mechanic certainly. Not sure if I'd make it a module.

then again I'm one of those weirdos who thinks it would have been interesting if shield boosters or cell banks were hardpoints instead

I actually dropped 200Ts of Painite back in the day for some Pirate in a Viper 4, he had no idea what to do, opened his cargo scoop, i deployed my hardpoints

O7

 

[Screemonster]

I actually dropped 200Ts of Painite back in the day for some Pirate in a Viper 4, he had no idea what to do, opened his cargo scoop, i deployed my hardpoints

O7

aahahahahahahaahahahhaaa, yeah, one of the things that bounced around my head for actual implementation was capping the drop amount at the cargo capacity of whoever was threatening you...

 

[Dragsham]

The problem is gankers can kill an innocent (assumption it's not bgs or PP related pvp, or indeed a wanted cmdr, or duellists or pg pvp.) moving cargo or just going about their business. Once they've killed the cmdr their flagged as wanted. One trip to a nearby interstellar factors npc & the crime is void. After an hour. Assumption noteriety is just 1.
I propose that this should not be the case. That the crime "sticks". That the offender (ganker) carry this crime & is unable to undo it. And if the ganker commits more murders in such a fashion then the noteriety be "permanently" in place rather than a rating as it stands atm.
Thus restricting the gankers options.
The rental of the gankers fleet carrier be cancelled by brewer Corp, and he can no longer land and use its services.
The option of landing on another carrier allowing notorious cmdrs not apply to him.
Noteriety should be twofold. Those who kill clean npcs for bgs pp reasons, thus the existing Noteriety system applys, and a permanent Noteriety for those who kill innocent cmdrs.
Their forced into an anarchy system that has an asset they can land at. That's their only solace. Until their perma noteriety reaches 10. Then the blue epaulettes pursue them as per. Only it's everywhere and permanent till their ships destroyed. Even after that the permanent Noteriety is in place. Only its dropped to 9. Now the epaulettes won't pursue them unless they kill again. And so it goes on, till they get the message hehe. A loop they cannot escape. At best permanent Noteriety 9 and they can exist in an unoccupied or anarchy system with assets. And never in normal space or be hounded by the police or feds.
Bit of a pickle... might put em off
Well it's their choice. And destruction of their ship isn't a fix.
The epaulettes should destroy the fsd not the shields hehe.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Hmmm interesting hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[aRJay]

The problem is gankers can kill an innocent (assumption it's not bgs or PP related pvp, or indeed a wanted cmdr, or duellists or pg pvp.) moving cargo or just going about their business. Once they've killed the cmdr their flagged as wanted. One trip to a nearby interstellar factors npc & the crime is void. After an hour. Assumption noteriety is just 1.
I propose that this should not be the case. That the crime "sticks". That the offender (ganker) carry this crime & is unable to undo it. And if the ganker commits more murders in such a fashion then the noteriety be "permanently" in place rather than a rating as it stands atm.
Thus restricting the gankers options.
The rental of the gankers fleet carrier be cancelled by brewer Corp, and he can no longer land and use its services.
The option of landing on another carrier allowing notorious cmdrs not apply to him.
Noteriety should be twofold. Those who kill clean npcs for bgs pp reasons, thus the existing Noteriety system applys, and a permanent Noteriety for those who kill innocent cmdrs.
Their forced into an anarchy system that has an asset they can land at. That's their only solace. Until their perma noteriety reaches 10. Then the blue epaulettes pursue them as per. Only it's everywhere and permanent till their ships destroyed. Even after that the permanent Noteriety is in place. Only its dropped to 9. Now the epaulettes won't pursue them unless they kill again. And so it goes on, till they get the message hehe. A loop they cannot escape. At best permanent Noteriety 9 and they can exist in an unoccupied or anarchy system with assets. And never in normal space or be hounded by the police or feds.
Bit of a pickle... might put em off
Well it's their choice. And destruction of their ship isn't a fix.
The epaulettes should destroy the fsd not the shields hehe.

There is a problem, how does your system distinguish between a ganker and any random player who just happens to destroy another Commander?

 

[Screemonster]

The problem is gankers can kill an innocent (assumption it's not bgs or PP related pvp, or indeed a wanted cmdr, or duellists or pg pvp.) moving cargo or just going about their business. Once they've killed the cmdr their flagged as wanted. One trip to a nearby interstellar factors npc & the crime is void. After an hour. Assumption noteriety is just 1.

That's a lot of assumptions and the rest of your post hinges on those assumptions.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with ganking is the cost to the victim.
Add cargo insurance for any cargo that's purchasable (so no powerplay commodities or thargoid drops) for 5% of galactic average and new players losing their meta-alloy to a ganker on the way to farseer won't be a thing that happens any more.
Likewise, exploration and bio data - there was a time that you could argue "B-b-b-b-but I don't want people self-destructing and beating me to the first discovery tags by cashing in first!" but that time ended around eight or nine years ago.

Odyssey getting rid of the combat bond penalty on death (an absolute necessity given the meat grinder that foot CZs can be) was one of the best moves fdev made in the entire update, I'd go as far as to say that engagement in the thargoid war wouldn't be anywhere near where it is today if people could still lose an entire session's payout for taking one risk too many.

If the only thing you lost on death was your rebuy (with that number being zero in the stock sidewinder) ganking would be a nonissue.

 

[Dragsham]

There is a problem, how does your system distinguish between a ganker and any random player who just happens to destroy another Commander?

And how would that happen?
A collision?
A sustained burst of friendly fire?
Both most likely in a pg or duel. Or cz etc.
But let's assume two random cmdrs do have this happen. Well simple. As one is destroyed the perp who let's say is both gobsmacked and now mortified, goes lvl 1 noteriety. An hour or 2 later he can goto IF and clear it once noteriety has worn off. But if he inadvertently does it again... a collision or a cmdrs death the net result. Then perma applys.
Cos it can't happen twice in 2 hours outside of a pg, duelling, bgs cz etc. That's not random.

 

[Screemonster]

And how would that happen?
A collision?
A sustained burst of friendly fire?
Both most likely in a pg or duel. Or cz etc.
But let's assume two random cmdrs do have this happen. Well simple. As one is destroyed the perp who let's say is both gobsmacked and now mortified, goes lvl 1 noteriety. An hour or 2 later he can goto IF and clear it once noteriety has worn off. But if he inadvertently does it again... a collision or a cmdrs death the net result. Then perma applys.
Cos it can't happen twice in 2 hours outside of a pg, duelling, bgs cz etc. That's not random.

If I'm pirating someone, an activity explicitly supported by the game and explicitly in-keeping with the lore of the universe, and I say this is absolutely completely 100% unambiguously true because if it weren't then NPCs wouldn't do it, and they run instead of dropping cargo, then there is absolutely nothing immersion-breaking about me sending them to valhalla - because, again, NPCs do it.

This can easily happen twice in two hours in a busy system like a CG.

 

[Dragsham]

Mmmm piracy..
Ok so an npc no problem. Assuming the npc was clean you'd aquire a notorious 1 as per normal.
Exactly the same as a cmdr.
But if you inadvertently killed a cmdr again within the 2 hours before the noteriety 1 cleared..
Perma noteriety would apply. Which is in keeping with pirate activity. Their breaking the law!
So spamming npcs with piracy will climb the default noteriety ladder to 10.
But spam (and kill) cmdrs it's perma noteriety. In essence don't kill em in quick succession. (Cmdrs). If you inadvertently do kill one jus wait till default noteriety 1 clears.

 

[Screemonster]

Nah, I'm just gonna say that's a flat out awful idea and I'm not gonna do that. Why should the pirate be fearful of OOC punishment (which any special treatment of a commander as opposed to an NPC is) because another player decides they're gonna try and run instead of handing over the goods? Or fitted a class E shield so what would have just taken out a competently-built ship's drives instead killed them in one volley?

Let's not even get into the whole suicidewinder situation of getting people bounties on purpose.

 

[Dragsham]

If you "inadvertently" kill a cmdr because your a pirate breaking the law, a crime! Because you didn't anticipate his build was crap that's your bad. You'll gain a noteriety 1 as per. Do it again within 2 hours (when noteriety 1 hasnt cleared) your a not so clever pirate and your screwed.
Regardless of ooc or ic. What's in keeping is the law. Piracy is illegal. It might be seen as an honourable profession but its illegal. So the punishment fits the crime. You've a way out. Wait a few hours your "mistake" will go away your good to go.
Granted the current c&p doesn't reflect the fact that piracy is against the law apart from a slap on the wrist.
Now the suicide rammer..mm yeah that's a problem.
2 scenarios..
1) the rammer starts shooting a cmdr and at a given point rams and kills him.
Then the noteriety 1 default applies.
If he does it again within 2 hours he is screwed.
2) the rammer starts the fight by ramming and killing the cmdr.
As above.
The perma aspect kicks in when a 2nd killing of a cmdr occurs within the 2 hours default noteriety 1.
It's as simple as that.
The key is who started the shooting or who rammed who 1st. The former is pretty clear cut. The latter is too.
Report all crimes against me is on.
I'm approaching a letterbox orbital or planetary port and I'm rammed by a ship killing me. Perhaps he dies too.
Who rammed who? Perhaps it was an accident "he didn't see me",
So we either both get noteriety 1 or he does or even l do!
So.. he/l wait till that default noteriety 1 clears.
I was rammed so ill wait. If he has any sense so will he.
Itll make cmdrs think long n hard about what they can get away with or not as the case may be.

 

[SergMx]

Sorry to interrupt YOUR interesting conversation, but I don't think this is the place for such a discussion.
I would like the experts to speak in favor of the idea and tell me all its weaknesses and strengths.

Thank you.

P.S. I most want to find a weakness in this idea, and I can't figure it out yet.

 

[Rebel Yell]

P.S. I most want to find a weakness in this idea, and I can't figure it out yet.

The first thing is that there's a limit for objects flying in an instance... I don't remember how much it is, but after limit is reached there is a FIFO model so first canisters released start to explode. I mean, if a full T9/Cutter cargo hold is immediately released, much part of it will be lost anyway.

A less relevant limit is the available cargo for piracy ships... we do quite a lot of piracy, and rarely we do see/use Cutters, as most active pirates use Clipper, Krait, Phantom or even Cobra so that means that even offloading a T7 or a cargo Python will result in a bulk loss for the cargo released.

Collecting cargo also requires some time... collectors are slow, and even using a C5 collector part of the cargo may get lost because of decay.

But what I'm most concerned is that the cargo is not really the piracy goal: I mean, yes it is but it's not the value of it = money. Piracy is first ethos, way of life, game play and role play... I wonder if such a device will basically kill the reason why we do play (it's like a clog, I mean = no interaction / no more interest to play). Just consider we do often leave some cargo if it's too much scattered or we're having cargo bay almost full, to keep us in the instance and may be robbing a few more haulers before having to dock somewhere to sell/store it and come back.

In reality, there's no need at all of such device in case of piracy attempt: pirates always go after the cargo, if hauler drops all (of a large part) of it... the pirates will not harm the hauler as the goal is to collect the cargo and that's all. There's no need to run or jump to another system etc. that's the easiest way for an hauler to avoid to waste time etc trying to resist to a piracy attempt (= drives 0%, reboot... risk of NPC pirates coming and shooting at disabled ship and things like these).

Ofc in case of ganking attempt it would be a different story... anyway, we (pirates) always complained about the "interaction" part, as peeps don't read chats, don't check builds etc etc they try to run most of times, or menu/task log [worst part is that cloggers are not the newbies but usually hi-ranked] hence developing a way to improve haulers' awareness would be the key to avoid much of these game play breaking situations.

 

[Screemonster]

hence developing a way to improve haulers' awareness would be the key to avoid much of these game play breaking situations.

god
a message delivered via the target panel after manifest scanning would be wonderful
pop it up in the comms panel like the thing for choosing a side in a CZ or installation scenario with a big audiovisual alert, translated into whatever language you're currently using to cut through any unpleasant language barriers in case someone in another country doesn't know what "YARR" means
PIRATE DEMANDS X. COMPLY? Y/N
select Y and it automatically abandons the demanded cargo as if you did so from the inventory panel, select N or don't reply and... well. They may or may not choose to pick option B from "your cargo or your life".

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Add cargo insurance for any cargo that's purchasable (so no powerplay commodities or thargoid drops) for 5% of galactic average and new players losing their meta-alloy to a ganker on the way to farseer won't be a thing that happens any more.

Would you insure cargo held at point of departure or point of death? (If you're not insuring mining exclusives or salvage it does get rid of a bunch of the other weird cases, though at the cost of benefiting traders way more than other professions). Cargo is the one "lost on death" thing I've really not been able to find a fair-seeming solution to.

Likewise, exploration and bio data - there was a time that you could argue "B-b-b-b-but I don't want people self-destructing and beating me to the first discovery tags by cashing in first!" but that time ended around eight or nine years ago.

And certainly by the time that FCs allowed travel beyond normal ship ranges and instant hand-in for those wealthy enough to run one.

If the only thing you lost on death was your rebuy (with that number being zero in the stock sidewinder) ganking would be a nonissue.

And the rebuy probably could be got rid of too at that point. The circumstances in which it's a meaningful constraint are mainly "point and laugh at beginner" ones nowadays, especially if you aren't losing the bonds/bounties/data/cargo which would have paid it off anyway.

 

[Screemonster]

Would you insure cargo held at point of departure or point of death? (If you're not insuring mining exclusives or salvage it does get rid of a bunch of the other weird cases, though at the cost of benefiting traders way more than other professions). Cargo is the one "lost on death" thing I've really not been able to find a fair-seeming solution to.

Point of death would be the only one that I could see not leading to duping exploits in the style of "oh no I got hatchbroken with my hold full of extremely expensive cargo and then they blew me up, please refill my hold at 5% of the original buying price" while your "attacker" collects the first load.

I'm not exactly sure what purchasable commodities might exceed the rebuy value of the ship carrying them to make it worth it, but I'm sure there are some.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Point of death would be the only one that I could see not leading to duping exploits in the style of "oh no I got hatchbroken with my hold full of extremely expensive cargo and then they blew me up, please refill my hold at 5% of the original buying price" while your "attacker" collects the first load.

It does on the other side end up with the slight issue that self-destructing when sent a credible piracy threat is absolutely the best option, though (for a trader but not a miner).
Credible piracy threats are probably rare enough that killing off the last few is no big deal, though.

I'm not exactly sure what purchasable commodities might exceed the rebuy value of the ship carrying them to make it worth it, but I'm sure there are some.

T-7 with everything downsized as far as possible except the FSD and filled with cargo racks is ~1M credit rebuy (assuming 15% LYR discount) and carries 310t so a typical 16k/tonne spread on Silver (minus 1.5k/tonne for the insurance on the Silver itself) would give 3.5M profit after the rebuy, compared with 4.7M if you don't self-destruct.

So if the self-destructing lets you do trade loops more than 33% faster it wins, and you can certainly improve on that 16k/tonne profit if purchasing from Infrastructure Failure, or using Ceramic Composites (28k/tonne in ideal circumstances and negligible purchase price) ... which mean that a stripped-down T9 (~4x the rebuy for ~2.5x the cargo) also becomes viable.

It's probably not a big enough exploit to actually care about, though.

 

[SergMx]

The first thing is that there's a limit for objects flying in an instance... I don't remember how much it is, but after limit is reached there is a FIFO model so first canisters released start to explode. I mean, if a full T9/Cutter cargo hold is immediately released, much part of it will be lost anyway.

A less relevant limit is the available cargo for piracy ships... we do quite a lot of piracy, and rarely we do see/use Cutters, as most active pirates use Clipper, Krait, Phantom or even Cobra so that means that even offloading a T7 or a cargo Python will result in a bulk loss for the cargo released.

Collecting cargo also requires some time... collectors are slow, and even using a C5 collector part of the cargo may get lost because of decay.

But what I'm most concerned is that the cargo is not really the piracy goal: I mean, yes it is but it's not the value of it = money. Piracy is first ethos, way of life, game play and role play... I wonder if such a device will basically kill the reason why we do play (it's like a clog, I mean = no interaction / no more interest to play). Just consider we do often leave some cargo if it's too much scattered or we're having cargo bay almost full, to keep us in the instance and may be robbing a few more haulers before having to dock somewhere to sell/store it and come back.

In reality, there's no need at all of such device in case of piracy attempt: pirates always go after the cargo, if hauler drops all (of a large part) of it... the pirates will not harm the hauler as the goal is to collect the cargo and that's all. There's no need to run or jump to another system etc. that's the easiest way for an hauler to avoid to waste time etc trying to resist to a piracy attempt (= drives 0%, reboot... risk of NPC pirates coming and shooting at disabled ship and things like these).

Ofc in case of ganking attempt it would be a different story... anyway, we (pirates) always complained about the "interaction" part, as peeps don't read chats, don't check builds etc etc they try to run most of times, or menu/task log [worst part is that cloggers are not the newbies but usually hi-ranked] hence developing a way to improve haulers' awareness would be the key to avoid much of these game play breaking situations.

In general about the cargo in this proposal is just a bonus for pirates, part of the cargo can be destroyed by a bomb, and you can generally in this case put everything in 3 containers.
I do not think that the cargo is the most important in this proposal.

I think this proposal would just remove ganking from the game. And many, many people will play in an open game.