Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

[signal11th]

Imagine going to a garage to get an upgrade to your vanilla car, yeah sure no worries mate that will be 2 thousand pounds but also I need you to go to Wolverhampton to pick up the turbo, Cardiff to pick up the injector kit oh and whilst you are there go to Bristol and pick up some spark plugs. You'd tell the chap/chapette to FO wouldn't you because in any sane persons world that would be ridiculous. They should have made all mats player controlled via the market place, would have opened up a new career, saved time for people who would rather fight/do other stuff than collect mats, opened up another revenue stream for people who like collecting these things and also been the same for people who actually wanted to do it the way it is now.
It's just ridiculous that they hand this stuff out like candy via missions but can you actually buy it anywhere in the known universe nope you can't because "reasons". I can't even sell the stuff I have loads off (new patch slight change) I have to dump it...

 

[jasonbirder]

They should have made all mats player controlled via the market place

IE Instant unlimited Rolls to Min/Max special effects for players who've earned billions whilst watching Altered Carbon on Netflix whilst doing long-range passenger runs...
The EXACT opposite of Frontiers original stated Engineers Philosophy of...acquire them gradually and organically whilst undertaking other game activities and a gentle nudge to encourage the player base to experience a greater variety of gameplay offerings (combat/trading/exploration/mining/surface prospecting etc)

 

[frostypaw]

Yeah everytime I see someone asking for a player controlled market now I immediately assume they're a grind-billionaire or willing to pay2win and just wanting to buy their way back to pewpew.

Without a credit reset those dreams are now beyond rescue.

 

[signal11th]

Yeah everytime I see someone asking for a player controlled market now I immediately assume they're a grind-billionaire or willing to pay2win and just wanting to buy their way back to pewpew.

Without a credit reset those dreams are now beyond rescue.

Not really it should have been in the game from the start but hey "reasons"

 

[Zynniah]

Imagine going to a garage to get an upgrade to your vanilla car, yeah sure no worries mate that will be 2 thousand pounds but also I need you to go to Wolverhampton to pick up the turbo, Cardiff to pick up the injector kit oh and whilst you are there go to Bristol and pick up some spark plugs.

First mistake: engineers are not vanilla garages, they are high end customizers. If you’ve ever dealt with some of the high end shops (especially the smaller ones) you would realize that is actually normal.

You can go get parts or pay a lot extra for them to send someone to go get it for you. And wait several more weeks before your mods are ready.

 

[signal11th]

First mistake: engineers are not vanilla garages, they are high end customizers. If you’ve ever dealt with some of the high end shops (especially the smaller ones) you would realize that is actually normal.

You can go get parts or pay a lot extra for them to send someone to go get it for you. And wait several more weeks before your mods are ready.

Yes but you get the "choice" of either paying for it all to be done or not. Never been asked for anything like that from Audi or Porsche I suppose you get what you pay for. Nice try though.

 

[frostypaw]

Not really it should have been in the game from the start but hey "reasons"

Nah. Having seen how people play I'm now utterly against the idea to a far greater extent than I'd ever considered before. FDev were very wise to keep any chance of monetisation of in-game stuff as remote as possible.

 

[signal11th]

Nah. Having seen how people play I'm now utterly against the idea to a far greater extent than I'd ever considered before. FDev were very wise to keep any chance of monetisation of in-game stuff as remote as possible.

Pretty sure we are talking about different things. It's probably the one reason I don't trade in the game, everything is static, doesn't mean anything and utterly pointless, There is no reason for player collected items no to be traded in game apart from adding "time" to something. So instead of being able to sell a really valuable (to someone) resource in game I either keep it or dump it because someone in game who is a billionaire might buy them to shortcut not having to work... wow who would have guessed that.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

This happened long before engineers... I remember when premium ammo synth was THE meta... I could fight someone in an identical ship and immediately know if they were using premium ammo. If not, it would be a whole lot easier to win. No matter how hard they tried, they would just not do as much damage as a build with premium synthed ammo..

Thats exactly what I meant - as soon as you introduce any mechanic where "X" is greater than "Y" - even by 1% - it becomes necessary for survival. It becomes necessary for group play.

It becomes a necessity, not an "option".

Anyone who says otherwise clearly has no understanding of human psychology, and hasn't been paying attention to the world around them.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

But almost all games have some kind of levelling procedure?

Yes they do, but all of those (except 1 I'm aware of) have one thing in common - the levelling process is part of the game, part of the story, part of how your character develops and in no way has a direct line to it, bypassing everything else.

Please don't mention games like WoW and Rift and others that players can go from 1- max level in 24 hours - it's absolutely clear to anyone that wasn't and isn't how it was originally or how it's supposed to be now.... but it's also a great example to FDev of the human mentality of "me want max NAOW!" that they SHOULD have paid attention to, and made certain they didn't follow that particular path down the drain.

The only game I'm aware of that allowed instant max level (before mct's got involved) was Guild wars - but the limit was that character could only access the top level stuff or PvP iirc.

If you wanted to play the rest of the content, you had to schlep through it from lvl 1, just like everyone else.

Even with the engineer changes and FORCING a player to go through the mod levels in succession (coz "meaning" whatever that was supposed to be), there doesn't seem to be much stopping them from going g1>g5 in succession and ignoring almost every other aspect of the game.

Engineers has become a minigame, well not so mini in terms of time, but you get my point.

For most players G5 is the goal, and they will schlep through whatever grindwall obstacles FDev put in thier way on that direct path to G5.

The ONLY way to stop that is to make engineers part of a story based progression, such that each module level has a time to be USED, appreciated for it's upgrade from the previous, and then reaches a point where it's not quite as effective and some player skill is required; at which time an ingame event happens and you got the chance to unlock another engineer and the next grade up - but then they won't be engineers anymore - it'll be "something else".

Which is how it should have been from the start, and how most of the "games with a levelling procedure" are designed, n'est-ce pas?

 

[Blackcompany]

Pretty sure we are talking about different things. It's probably the one reason I don't trade in the game, everything is static, doesn't mean anything and utterly pointless, There is no reason for player collected items no to be traded in game apart from adding "time" to something. So instead of being able to sell a really valuable (to someone) resource in game I either keep it or dump it because someone in game who is a billionaire might buy them to shortcut not having to work... wow who would have guessed that.

Fdev copied and pasted a single player fantasy RPG crafting System into their multiplayer space Sim because making something to fit their universe would take actual effort. And Minimum viable product design doesn't spare time for the effort required to design unique systems and Mechanics.

The result of this is every bit as silly, unintuitive and ill fitting as you'd think. Not to mention a bit crap.

 

[Sylveria]

Minimum viable product design

Sigh...

Here we go again...

 

[Rafe Zetter]

IE Instant unlimited Rolls to Min/Max special effects for players who've earned billions whilst watching Altered Carbon on Netflix whilst doing long-range passenger runs...

The EXACT opposite of Frontiers original stated Engineers Philosophy of...acquire them gradually and organically whilst undertaking other game activities and a gentle nudge to encourage the player base to experience a greater variety of gameplay offerings (combat/trading/exploration/mining/surface prospecting etc)

But that's just it - FDev NEVER understood that if you offer "master pewpew imma kill you" weapons or "MC Hammer, you cant touch this" defensive modules via engineers then any player who wants those will drive a STRAIGHT LINE from where they are to owning them, "do not pass go, do not collect 10 tonnes of Lavian Brandy, do not use g1 modules".

Worse still, If there's the possibility of making them "Uber I'm gonna fry you like the Deathstar". then players will take ANOTHER STRAIGHT LINE to that too.

and the first few players who get 'sploded in 10 seconds are going to want the same, and the next, and the next, and the next.

And you end up where engineers was.

The only bloody thing that's been changed is that now you have to schlep g1 > g5 - THATS IT.

And you can bet your donkey there WILL BE players who "DO pass go, and do roll g1 modules" but they won't be taking an organic and gradual drive along that road, - oh no - they will be careening around that particular corner, wheels skidding like Tokyo Drift, while they boost on down the highway directly towards G2 in a matter of hours or less.

G1 wont get used, except as one would use a step on a ladder, and with as much care or thought about it; which is to say NONE.

The only meaning FDev has managed to give to G1 > G4 is as speedbumps on the road to G5, nothing more, because nothing else of any substance been built around them.

NOTHING else has changed.

Player will STILL take the fastest direct route to G5 - d

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Sigh...

Here we go again...

Sorry Sylvia, but can you please enlighten us all an what the changes have brought by way of new interaction, and other meaning to engineers?

So we have mats traders now - big whoop, I'll bet it took all of a few days to create a new NPC.

Anything else? Or is the new engineers a rebranded old engineers "but now with added teduim!" of having to go through g1 > g4 on the road to g5.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for using content, I'm one of the few players that LIKES to run the low grade dungeons in an MMO, and READ and experience the storyline.

I feel like it's my duty that the devs went to all the trouble to make it, so I should give the respect of playing it.

But that IS NOT what we got with ED engineers.

It was a sloppy bolt on when it was launched, and the "fix" is a sloppy alteration of existing mechanics designed purely to slow down progression, but with no discernable reason why you MUST use G1 > G4.

Nothing has changed there - there's no "you must use a g3 module for this particular mission because anything less won't do it; and anything more will be lethal and we don't want lethal".

LOTS of games use that sort of limiting factor to force a player to maintain a steady progression - or to go get something they don't have.

Or missions like "go do this" - you try and fail, you go back and he says "damn, that didn't work...... but..... an old trader buddy of mine told me a story about some hermit in the wastelands, beyond the dune sea who was working on some sort of prototype, he's not easy to find so you might have to ask around, but find him you must; you might have to get ornery with him to make him talk, but we need that tech!" *walks towards door* "Hey kid, one more thing, grab that (1T) case of Lavian Brandy and take it with you, it may help..."

Sure it's a hackneyed game trope - but they work - you feel engaged; hell I felt engaged just writing it...

FDevs implementation is little more than going to the supermarket for groceries and having to do a few chores along the way.

It's empty, as vacuous of meaning and pleasure as the space around it.

 

[Lee Archer]

“We came here to play. To blaze our own trail. Play our way. And now the Engineers are leaving us with a binary choice: Either play the way you are told to play...or miss out on content. Neither of these is an acceptable choice, to your customer base. ”

Yes, just yes.

#don’t downgrade me Bro

 

[Zynniah]

Yes but you get the "choice" of either paying for it all to be done or not. Never been asked for anything like that from Audi or Porsche I suppose you get what you pay for. Nice try though.

Nice try but the engineer isn’t the dealer or the manufacturer. The engineer is the one who can do better than the dealer by pushing things beyond their design specs.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Nice try but the engineer isn’t the dealer or the manufacturer. The engineer is the one who can do better than the dealer by pushing things beyond their design specs.

Yes, yes. We heard that bit. And sure - why hand out "beyond design specs" for free, hm? Sounds reasonable, but it's not, because it was wrong to push those limits to the excessive extent in the first place.

I surely didn't call for that kind of power creep. The game didn't need it either.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

That's cos you're meant to be collecting them as you play along with the rest of the game, not ignoring the rest of the game and just collecting loot.

if only they were obainable while playing along, but they aren't. if you would do it on the super rare occasions the yhapopen then you would need month for s simple mod. It's just baldy implemented. also, explain me how soemoen minign comes accross enough of these items to ever find enough stuff for proper G5 upgrades. if only stuff like imperials hielding would drop form imperial ships raider,s then yes could happen wihin mining as well, but doesn't.

 

[Genus]

But that's just it - FDev NEVER understood that if you offer "master pewpew imma kill you" weapons or "MC Hammer, you cant touch this" defensive modules via engineers then any player who wants those will drive a STRAIGHT LINE from where they are to owning them, "do not pass go, do not collect 10 tonnes of Lavian Brandy, do not use g1 modules".

Worse still, If there's the possibility of making them "Uber I'm gonna fry you like the Deathstar". then players will take ANOTHER STRAIGHT LINE to that too.

and the first few players who get 'sploded in 10 seconds are going to want the same, and the next, and the next, and the next.

And you end up where engineers was.

The only bloody thing that's been changed is that now you have to schlep g1 > g5 - THATS IT.

And you can bet your donkey there WILL BE players who "DO pass go, and do roll g1 modules" but they won't be taking an organic and gradual drive along that road, - oh no - they will be careening around that particular corner, wheels skidding like Tokyo Drift, while they boost on down the highway directly towards G2 in a matter of hours or less.

G1 wont get used, except as one would use a step on a ladder, and with as much care or thought about it; which is to say NONE.

The only meaning FDev has managed to give to G1 > G4 is as speedbumps on the road to G5, nothing more, because nothing else of any substance been built around them.

NOTHING else has changed.

Player will STILL take the fastest direct route to G5 - d

I completely agree.

You know when you go to the supermarket, and you discover that the manager has moved everything around for no apparent reason, other than to balance the annoyance of their customers, with the behaviour that everyone now has to look down every single isle in the hope they make more impulse purchases?

That's the Design Approach for ED.

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

I completely agree.

You know when you go to the supermarket, and you discover that the manager has moved everything around for no apparent reason, other than to balance the annoyance of their customers, with the behaviour that everyone now has to look down every single isle in the hope they make more impulse purchases?

That's the Design Approach for ED.

Lol, that really es me off. You have a very short window to dive in and grab your lunch and they have moved everything around... again!